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frame lock questions
- Thread starter notos&w
- Start date
Cliff Stamp
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db :
The greater your hand strength the more you can compress the flesh of your grip. The more it is compressed, the more resistant to compression it becomes. Under very high loads the flesh will stop being able to be compressed by any movement of the lock as the lock isn't in contact with a soft medium any more but a very dense and rigid one.
-Cliff
The greater your hand strength the more you can compress the flesh of your grip. The more it is compressed, the more resistant to compression it becomes. Under very high loads the flesh will stop being able to be compressed by any movement of the lock as the lock isn't in contact with a soft medium any more but a very dense and rigid one.
-Cliff
Squeeze something, anything, as hard as you can. Can you wiggle it? To even be more on point use a knife, can it be twisted? Nice try Cliff but I dont agree with you. It may sound good and could be used as a selling point, but in real life I dont think you have a valid argument.
Cliff Stamp
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I have done it with a frame lock, a Sebenza, when I did use the knife for harder work, the compressive force on the lock prevented its release as the lock would have had to exceed the force I was pressing against it for it to move, the give of the flesh itself wasn't significant as it was highly compressed.
We are not talking about a slight movement of a fraction of a mm which induces the lock to release. Once the lock is fully engaged it has to be moved a significant distance before it loses contact with the blade, and while it is traveling this distance it has to be pushing your hand open, or compressing the flesh. Both of these factors mean that it is more secure than a liner lock as its movement is being resisted, how much secure depends on the characteristics of the individuals grip and of course the width of the lock bar.
However this kind of use also jammed the lock badly, which is one of the reasons I don't use them, there are others, and quite frankly I don't like the idea that the lock isn't stable unless you squeeze the knife, this should be an inherent property of the lock not one you have to add. Getting specific, the lock would not release as normal and I would have to use a screwdriver or something to pop the bar out. This would also lead to galling wear quite quickly I would assume, and cause the bar to need to be replaced and this is quite costly for those knives if Reeves service cost for such a problem is similar to the norm.
-Cliff
We are not talking about a slight movement of a fraction of a mm which induces the lock to release. Once the lock is fully engaged it has to be moved a significant distance before it loses contact with the blade, and while it is traveling this distance it has to be pushing your hand open, or compressing the flesh. Both of these factors mean that it is more secure than a liner lock as its movement is being resisted, how much secure depends on the characteristics of the individuals grip and of course the width of the lock bar.
However this kind of use also jammed the lock badly, which is one of the reasons I don't use them, there are others, and quite frankly I don't like the idea that the lock isn't stable unless you squeeze the knife, this should be an inherent property of the lock not one you have to add. Getting specific, the lock would not release as normal and I would have to use a screwdriver or something to pop the bar out. This would also lead to galling wear quite quickly I would assume, and cause the bar to need to be replaced and this is quite costly for those knives if Reeves service cost for such a problem is similar to the norm.
-Cliff
Cliff says
However this kind of use also jammed the lock badly,
Getting specific,
the lock would not release as normal and I would have to use a screwdriver or something to pop the bar
Sounds to me like your hand had nothing to do with reinforcing the lock. In fact a linner lock can also be jammed open. My whole point is the force it would take to move the lock bar over is greater than the resistance of your flesh that is next to the lock. Clearly a lock can be jammed and this is true with framers and linners as well.
However this kind of use also jammed the lock badly,
Getting specific,
the lock would not release as normal and I would have to use a screwdriver or something to pop the bar
Sounds to me like your hand had nothing to do with reinforcing the lock. In fact a linner lock can also be jammed open. My whole point is the force it would take to move the lock bar over is greater than the resistance of your flesh that is next to the lock. Clearly a lock can be jammed and this is true with framers and linners as well.
holdanedge
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just wondering, are there any production framelocks(good ones)?
i would like to look at them.......
holdanedge.
i would like to look at them.......
holdanedge.
mschwoeb
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- Jan 31, 2001
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Outdoor Edge Paragee
Camillus EDC
Smith & Wesson HRT
These three all were designed by Darrel Ralph in collaboration with the various manufacturers. Darrel is very strict about making sure that anything that he has a hand in turns out well, and these areall proof of that.
Sebenza(is kinda a half/half of production custom)
Camillus EDC
Smith & Wesson HRT
These three all were designed by Darrel Ralph in collaboration with the various manufacturers. Darrel is very strict about making sure that anything that he has a hand in turns out well, and these areall proof of that.
Sebenza(is kinda a half/half of production custom)
holdanedge
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thank you.
i actually thought smith and wesson was cool. but, i didn't think they were known for there knives? i'll look at the others. i really like the axis lock best. even though it is very complicated.
holdanedge.
i actually thought smith and wesson was cool. but, i didn't think they were known for there knives? i'll look at the others. i really like the axis lock best. even though it is very complicated.
holdanedge.
Cliff Stamp
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db :
It was the pressure exerted by my hand which caused the lock bar to travel across the face to the extent that it did. It kept moving until the resistance was in excess of what I could exert on the lock. Thus in order for it to come open again, this force would have to be exerted on the lock in the opposite direction. Yes you could do this with a liner lock by using a screwdriver to pry the bar across, each and every time you opened the lock, but it will happen naturally on a frame lock under a tight grip.
It always add some resistance, it has to compress the flesh and open your hand. This means it has to do more work that a liner lock, this it is clearly more secure . The amount of additional work it has to do simply depends on the strength of the grip of the person who is using it, and how much they are willing to squeeze the frame.
-Cliff
It was the pressure exerted by my hand which caused the lock bar to travel across the face to the extent that it did. It kept moving until the resistance was in excess of what I could exert on the lock. Thus in order for it to come open again, this force would have to be exerted on the lock in the opposite direction. Yes you could do this with a liner lock by using a screwdriver to pry the bar across, each and every time you opened the lock, but it will happen naturally on a frame lock under a tight grip.
It always add some resistance, it has to compress the flesh and open your hand. This means it has to do more work that a liner lock, this it is clearly more secure . The amount of additional work it has to do simply depends on the strength of the grip of the person who is using it, and how much they are willing to squeeze the frame.
-Cliff
Cliff says
On jamming
Yes you could do this with a liner lock by using a screwdriver
Or even a thumbnail would work, while pulling back on the blade sometimes even pulling back on the blade will do this somewhat.
It will happen naturally on a frame lock
Wrong, not unless you purposely try and jam the lock. If it did more people would be complaining about how hard it is to unlock, and the frame style would not be so popular. For me when I grip a knife hard most of the pressure is not on the lock bar, but on the top and bottom of the handle.
It always add some resistance, it has to compress the flesh and open your hand. This means it has to do more work that a liner lock, this it is clearly
more secure . The amount of additional work it has to do simply depends on the strength of the grip of the person who is using it, and how much they are
willing to squeeze the frame.
It is still not clear to me. I just dont see it with a normal way a knife is held, and one of my edcs is a frame lock. Unless you are putting your fingers or thumb right on the lock and pressing it tighter I just dont see it. And once again hand strength has nothing to do with it I bet my 80-year-old grandma can hold a knife tight enough. She could even press on the lock and push it over and jam it.
On jamming
Yes you could do this with a liner lock by using a screwdriver
Or even a thumbnail would work, while pulling back on the blade sometimes even pulling back on the blade will do this somewhat.
It will happen naturally on a frame lock
Wrong, not unless you purposely try and jam the lock. If it did more people would be complaining about how hard it is to unlock, and the frame style would not be so popular. For me when I grip a knife hard most of the pressure is not on the lock bar, but on the top and bottom of the handle.
It always add some resistance, it has to compress the flesh and open your hand. This means it has to do more work that a liner lock, this it is clearly
more secure . The amount of additional work it has to do simply depends on the strength of the grip of the person who is using it, and how much they are
willing to squeeze the frame.
It is still not clear to me. I just dont see it with a normal way a knife is held, and one of my edcs is a frame lock. Unless you are putting your fingers or thumb right on the lock and pressing it tighter I just dont see it. And once again hand strength has nothing to do with it I bet my 80-year-old grandma can hold a knife tight enough. She could even press on the lock and push it over and jam it.
I have a CF linerlock knife which I have now retired because cutting hard materials with it would cause the blade to compress the stop pin and the liner would move to tighten the lock. Cannot unlock with thumb nails. Had to use a screwdriver. Also have a BM750 with modified linerlock. Never had that happen to it yet. So it depends on the materials and the constructions.
Yup Kev, and if that happened with frame locks every time someone squeezed them I think they would do the same with em. Just one more thought I wonder what happens in the void between the liner lock and the scale when I squeez it really really hard? Eeeer, could a persons flesh fill that void in a little?
holdanedge
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i noticed that the cuda edc's frame is stainless (420) steel. is it strong enough for it's application? is it as strong as titainium? i was also wondering, on the edc is the handle made of thin stamped steel or milled steel?
the guy at the store here claims he has one in ats-34. as far as i know it was never offered in ats-34. maybe he has one of the many custom jobs?
anyways, i am going to check it out tomorrow(long ride). i'll let you guys know if i liked it (and bought it).
thank you,
holdanedge.
the guy at the store here claims he has one in ats-34. as far as i know it was never offered in ats-34. maybe he has one of the many custom jobs?
anyways, i am going to check it out tomorrow(long ride). i'll let you guys know if i liked it (and bought it).
thank you,
holdanedge.
Buzzbait
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My uneducated guess is that the Camillus EDC's 420 stainless steel locking bar is much stronger than a titanium bar of the same size. It is more than up to the task of a knife that size. It's not overbuilt, but I certainly wouldn't call it underbuilt either. Just right.
I will also guess that the handle is stamped. The ability to stamp 420HC is often why that particular steel is chosen.
Now for the whole ATS-34 thing. Your friend is in error, but it's not his fault. The original 420HC bladed EDC came in a CUDA box, not a dedicated EDC box. The box said ATS-34 on it, because that's the blade steel that was used on the CUDA. This caused confusion for many people and dealers.
Here are the various EDC models, as far as I know:
1. Original 420 HC version, discontinued, the only version I know of where no particular steel designation was stamped on the blade
2. Collector's 154CM version, has 154CM marked on the blade
3. Talonite version, has talonite marked on the blade
4. 125th Anniversary Edition, black handle and blade with 154CM stamped on blade
4. A.G. Russell D2 version, I believe it has a BIG D2 stamped on the blade.
I will also guess that the handle is stamped. The ability to stamp 420HC is often why that particular steel is chosen.
Now for the whole ATS-34 thing. Your friend is in error, but it's not his fault. The original 420HC bladed EDC came in a CUDA box, not a dedicated EDC box. The box said ATS-34 on it, because that's the blade steel that was used on the CUDA. This caused confusion for many people and dealers.
Here are the various EDC models, as far as I know:
1. Original 420 HC version, discontinued, the only version I know of where no particular steel designation was stamped on the blade
2. Collector's 154CM version, has 154CM marked on the blade
3. Talonite version, has talonite marked on the blade
4. 125th Anniversary Edition, black handle and blade with 154CM stamped on blade
4. A.G. Russell D2 version, I believe it has a BIG D2 stamped on the blade.
holdanedge
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thank you buzzbait!
it is great that people are so knowledgable around here! anyways, i actually just got home tonite (1:30 am). so i did not see your post before i went to look at the edc. i sort of thought it was exactly what you said. i asked the guy if the new product came in left over packaging. i figured if a $50 knife had any nice blade metal it would certainly say so on the blade. well, it is an excellant knife! unfortunatly, it is way too thin and dainty for my giant hand. i can actually get 4 fingers on it(barley) but since it doesnt have much heft to grab onto it slips right out of my hand. darnit this would have been perfect. honestly, there is no other frame lock like a seb. i would prefer an axis lock over the edc, but overall i would go out on a limb and say the edc was nicer than many knives that cost $150(benchmade comes to mind again). i also, read somewhere(may be wrong! please don't flame) that an equal size piece of aluminum or steel is stronger than it's titainum counterpart, titainium is lighter and rust proof, silly me. for you guys and gals with smallish hands this thing looks like the knife bargain of the century! funny, to see me actually complement something, eh? it stinks that they dont make one with more weight to it. i think the specifficaly tried to save weight by cutting those holes in it. which are very nicely done by the way. and, from what i can tell it is not stamped, it is milled. (there are tell tale signs of stamped metal). this thing is great! i think i'll order one on the net with(154cm) anyways, if i absoloutly cannot use it, my wife certainly can. if you guys want to see what i think i really want to get next(asap), please read my other thread i have going.
thank you,
holdanedge.
it is great that people are so knowledgable around here! anyways, i actually just got home tonite (1:30 am). so i did not see your post before i went to look at the edc. i sort of thought it was exactly what you said. i asked the guy if the new product came in left over packaging. i figured if a $50 knife had any nice blade metal it would certainly say so on the blade. well, it is an excellant knife! unfortunatly, it is way too thin and dainty for my giant hand. i can actually get 4 fingers on it(barley) but since it doesnt have much heft to grab onto it slips right out of my hand. darnit this would have been perfect. honestly, there is no other frame lock like a seb. i would prefer an axis lock over the edc, but overall i would go out on a limb and say the edc was nicer than many knives that cost $150(benchmade comes to mind again). i also, read somewhere(may be wrong! please don't flame) that an equal size piece of aluminum or steel is stronger than it's titainum counterpart, titainium is lighter and rust proof, silly me. for you guys and gals with smallish hands this thing looks like the knife bargain of the century! funny, to see me actually complement something, eh? it stinks that they dont make one with more weight to it. i think the specifficaly tried to save weight by cutting those holes in it. which are very nicely done by the way. and, from what i can tell it is not stamped, it is milled. (there are tell tale signs of stamped metal). this thing is great! i think i'll order one on the net with(154cm) anyways, if i absoloutly cannot use it, my wife certainly can. if you guys want to see what i think i really want to get next(asap), please read my other thread i have going.
thank you,
holdanedge.
Buzzbait
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Yep. The EDC in awesome knife. If you want to enhance your grip on the EDC, cord wrapping the handle can make a pretty big difference. The wrapping will widen out the back of the knife, making the knife more comfortable for larger hands, and more slip resisitant as well.
holdanedge
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that is a great idea, buzzbait! maybe, i will order one now. since i can only seem to find the bm705 i wanted with combo edge(locally).
holdanedge.
holdanedge.
Cliff Stamp
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db :
[jamming being natural on a frame lock]
Whenever I used a heavy grip the lock would jam because of the direct pressure my hand exerted on it, it happened that easily to me that I gave up on that type of lock as being functional as the locking mechanism became too clumsy. Obviously different people will have different experiences as their hand shape and strength are different as well as how they hold the knife.
[lock jamming]
It isn't all or nothing. The amount that the lock is jammed is going to be directly related to how much force you exert on it. The more force you exert mashing the surfaces together, the more force is going to be needed to be exerted to pop them apart.
-Cliff
[jamming being natural on a frame lock]
Whenever I used a heavy grip the lock would jam because of the direct pressure my hand exerted on it, it happened that easily to me that I gave up on that type of lock as being functional as the locking mechanism became too clumsy. Obviously different people will have different experiences as their hand shape and strength are different as well as how they hold the knife.
[lock jamming]
It isn't all or nothing. The amount that the lock is jammed is going to be directly related to how much force you exert on it. The more force you exert mashing the surfaces together, the more force is going to be needed to be exerted to pop them apart.
-Cliff