frame lock questions

hi, everyone.
i went to a store today that had some sebs and a edc(420 steel). the seb is a better knife. probably the best production knife, period. strangely, though if you press hard on the lock it becomes hard to open on the seb. i guess that is the very nature of the frame lock? although, i think the (camillus) edc is 90% of the quality of the seb for 25% of the cost. the intresting thing is the seb feels much more soild. the edc feels more like two slabs of metal held by spacers. the seb also fits my hand better. strange, as they are about the same size. the choil is further back on the seb which is also nice. so seb=best knife. edc=best value. i guess buzzbait already knows this :)
so guess what i want? which leads me to this question:> which internet retailer has the best price on the edc in 154cm, has it in stock and is reputable? i'll get the d2 if it does not rust?
i now can not bring myself to order anything benchmade without seeing it. there quality control tends to vary too widely. i hope i am amlost assured of getting a good edc through the mail?

on a side note, i think the ultimate knife would be: a seb with dual thumb studs and an axis(style) lock, that sells for $200! thats just my opinion. i got my flame suit on, ok? honestly, though if mr. reeve sold the knifes for $200 he, and the dealers would ultimatly make much more money. because they would sell many more. it is after all, a production knife. even though it is probably the best one! i guess he wants it to be exclusive.




holdanedge.
 
i was just thinking.... what is a fair price for a plain sebenza? i saw $305 today. i really do want one for my every day carry. it is just hard for me to spend the extra $250 to get the 10% more quality(over camillus edc). i am still looking for somewhere to buy online. you guys talked me into trying it again.



thank you,
holdanedge.
 
I've been in a same dilemma for some time. I have a large Seb and love it to death, but am having trouble justifying the cost of a small Seb when the Camillus EDC is so darned good. So far, I’m sticking with the EDC, mostly because I love the ergonomic handle of the EDC.

Both knifecenter.com and crknives.com have good prices on the EDC. I’ve dealt with both of them, and having nothing but good things to say.

If the small Seb is more to your tastes, I'd look at buying a used one. You can save a boat load of money, with just a scratch or two. Heck, it'll even save you the heartbreak of that first scratch, which is a killer.
 
If you are looking for a larger EDC, try out the S&W FL2, or in fact wait just a little while and I will have one available for a passaround.....
 
I find it curious that there have been only three alternatives discussed here, the frame lock, the liner lock, and BM's Axis Lock, although one or two others were mentioned in passing. But nobody has even mentioned what has turned out to be one of the strongest and most fool-proof locks going, at least from what I have seen and experienced with mine, and that is Spyderco's Compression Lock. I have a Gunting, a Li'l Temperance, and a Salsa, all of which have Compression Locks in one form or another in that the Gunting's version is backwards from those on the other knives. I have used them all rather hard and have never seen so much as a wiggle from the blade once it has locked open. I have tried to get it to unlock by all means that I can think of, including spine whacking the knives a bit, torquing them, and trying back cuts while wearing a Kevlar glove. As I said, I have seen not so much as a wiggle. I would trust that lock implicitly. It does, of course, require cleaning, but I see no reason to abuse fine tools, and that is how I see any good knife, so that is how I treat my Spydies, I give them periodic maintenance that includes blade touch-up, pivot tightening, and general cleaning and lubrication.

Actually, I have seen no problems with the Spyderco version of the Liner Lock, the one with the Adjustable Pivot, either. This Adjustable Pivot means that you can optimize the contact between the liner and the blade ramp for the best possible lock-up.
 
To tell you the truth, I just haven't read much about the compression lock. Few people are willing to do a serious evaluation of the lock, and thoroughly explain the pros and cons.
 
All of Spyderco's MBC line is tested to have strong locks. This includes the Gunting and Lil Temperance(compression lock) and the Keating (lock back). As stated before, it's usually more the execution of the lock, not a specific design type that is important.

Per the compression lock, search on the Spyderco forums and you can read all you need to know, both pro and con. Consensus is that it's a good lock that can sometimes pinch.

Per the EDC, I find it unimpressive. As with any Camillus product, I'd suggest you inspect it first before buying, i.e. don't buy over the internet. For the price point of the EDC, their product quality can vary from knife to knife, not a problem for most, but it may be if you're picky. One exception for on-line buys would be AG Russell, exclusive dealer for the D2 models. AG inspects his knives before he ships em.
 
thanks for mentionining dealers, buzzbait.
i was under the impression that camillus's qc was top notch. and even if it isnt perfect, per se. i'd rather lose $50 than $125. it seems real easy to get a bad $125 benchmade these days. i'm not knocking benchmade. it's just that each model knife i looked at from bm, i had to look at 4-5 of them to find a real good one. some had chipped blades burs on blades sharp screws on handles sharp thumb studs, etc.
camillus is one of the oldest knife makers in the country. i think there qc stays good because, yes they make a million knifes a year but they concentrate on maybe 7-10 models. whereas other manufacturers have 20+ models to worry about. well, i hope i get a good one(fingers crossed). all the ones i saw were great, except they were 420hc steel blades.

i was wondering, is d2 rust proof? if it is i will order that one. i am not sure i want to spring for the talonite.


another intresting thing i have learned here. take any knife that is actually decent. ask if it is good or not. get 10 replies. 5 like it 5 don't. bassicly always the same scenario. i think it boils down to do YOU like the knife? darn, even if a knife only had 420 steel and you loved it, why not buy it? ultimatly, do what pleases you! if it works for you, who cares what everyone else thinks. on the other hand, if the knife in question is $300+ then it might not hurt to ask if there are any problems with it. thats just my humble opinion!



thank you,
holdanedge.
 
D2 should be the least stainless of the various EDC incarnations. It is more of a semi-stainless than a stainless. It doesn't rust so easily, but will stain from contact with blood and such.

The original EDCs were a bit sketchy in the area of blade centering and lock position. Both 420HC versions I bought needed some slight work on my part. I then picked up two of the older style 154CM versions. They were much better in the lock area, but needed a little work on the blade centering. My next EDC was the Anniversary Edition, and it was perfect. My last EDC was the talonite version. It is also perfect. It looks like Camillus is getting better and better with their EDC production. The new Enhanced EDC (newer 154CM version) should be very good.
 
what is the "enhanced edc"? is that just the regular 154cm one?

i really want to find a dealer within 150 miles of where i live(chicago). that has it in stock, so i can make sure it is ok. the lady that answers the phone at camillus will not just give me a list of dealers. she asks for my zip code and gives me 3 dealers. none of those have them. so i asked her if she could tell me some dealers further away from my zip code(150 mile radius). she was not willing to do this. i really like to see what i am buying. if i get a great knife in the mail for $50, i would be very happy. if i do not receive a great knife, i wasted $50. even though it is only $50, i will still be unhappy. i personally think if you are buying anything mechanical or aesthetic you should see it first.



thank you,
holdanedge.
 
to be fair, the lady did check all over my area. no one by me has it.
so i will order online.


holdanedge.
 
If you want a guaranteed quality EDC, I'd go the A.G. Russell route. I've never gotten anythign less than perfect from A.G. He also has the undisputedly best guarantee in the industry.

We guarantee the customers total satisfaction. You, the customer, decide what satisfaction is. You decide how long you are entitled to be satisfied.

If you buy a knife and don't use it for ten years and when you do use it you want to return it, do it. If you think that a knife should provide good service for ten years and it only does so for seven years, tell us so. You are in charge of our guarantee.

Does anyone pick up one of our knives in a flea market or pawn shop and send it to us saying, give me a new knife for this? Yes, two or three a year do this. They misunderstand our guarantee, they are not our customer. The customer obviously felt that the knife had served its purpose and traded or sold it to somebody else.

Sears and Wal-Mart once had guarantees as strong as ours, but abuse forced them to change. We have an advantage over them. Our customers are not the general public, they are people who like fine knives and are for some reason, special. We have the greatest, most trustworthy customers in the world. We can afford the worlds strongest guarantee.
Click to expand...

And if that isn't enough, you have Will Fennell from Camillus. Will has gone to the point of calling me up on the phone to help me out. He's a class act all the way.
 
Hi,
The Cuda Maxx along with most of my newer knives all are straight across with no thumb cut out to unlock the lock bar.
I have found that when twisting in a cutting motion the lock bars with a cut out will unlock or become loose.

What I have done to offset this situation is relieved the lock area on both sides frame and added gripper grooves on the inside so that your thumb meat can get inside the frame to unlock the knife. I feel this is close to about the best we can ask for with the Integral bar locking style knives.
On smaller knives (factory) the decision had to be made to serve the general mass's with the thumb cut out area to make the knife easier to open.


The lock bar is straight across on the frame on these two models and ALL of the new knives I am producing and upgrading at this time.
These knives are the Madd Maxx series, and Aftermath.

Here is a link to the newer style of cut outs to make the unlocking easier while still maintaining the best function I can come up with to address the twisting motion unlock situation.

Aftermath:
http://www.darrelralph.com/assets/knives/tact-util-fold/aftermath/am8.jpg

Static (Maxx series):
http://www.darrelralph.com/assets/knives/tact-util-fold/maxx/maxx7c.jpg
 
i would certainly buy from agrussell. his gurantee is unheard of! only problem is he does not have the 154cm model. at least on his site he does not. i would love to call camillus and speak with mr. fennell and ask him if he could locate a local dealer. judging by the receptionist i spoke with today, i doubt she will let me spaek with him. she did not seem very patient.

mr. ralph, i had a hard time understanding what you were saying. do you mean to say that the current camillus edc could unlock if you twist it? i thought twisting could risk breaking the blade anyways?

also, if anyone lives in chicago or milwaukee(or knows these areas) is there anywhere i am likely to find this knife? knife stores seem to be far and few between around here. strangely all of the few stores i know of have almost every benchmade and no camillus. i don't understand that since to my understanding camillus is a much bigger company then benchmade. i apoligize if it seems as if i am making a big deal over a $50 dolar product. but where i come from, money is money. i want to be assured it is good. i have seen a lot of production knives that are not acceptable to me(qc wise).




thank you,
holdanedge.
 
Sir,
Any locking liner with a thumb relief will open with a twist cutting motion.

Not to say this is good or bad. Some folks like the way this style of folder unlocks.

Ill try to explain the way I do it on my folders now again.

There is no thumb relief on the knife. The frame side plates are the same from side to side on the knife.
The inside of the frame is relieved and grooved. To unlock you just put your thumb on top of the frame and push over. Your thumb meat will go into the frame so that the lock can be dis - engaged.
The frame being the same side to side with no thumb relief will help the twist cutting unlock situation.
Darrel
 
To agree with a few people:

1. I like Darrel's way of doing his locks, but my priority is reliability under hard conditions. If my priority was ease-of-unlocking (because I knew it was a gents' folder or something), that might change. BTW, if I recall correctly, Darrel was doing nothing but high-end art folders 5 years or so ago. He's grasped performance issues pretty quickly as he moved to using folders (probably didn't hurt that his first tactical was designed with Les), but has done a killer job of keeping a good sense of aesthetics. I've enjoyed watching his designs get more refined.

2. Agree on A.G.'s warrantee. I remember a particular email discussion I had with A.G. I was asking him about prying, in a discussion about a knife that definitely was not meant to pry (paper thin blade). A.G.'s answer was something along the lines of: "well, that knife wasn't designed to pry, but if *you* think it should pry, and it breaks, send it back." Can't beat that!


Joe
 
Joe
I agree with the reliabilty and function is always first in my world.
Thats the exact reason I build the lock bar straight across.
With the relief on the inside of the frame for your thumb the knife lock up becomes very reliable. Unlocking is much easier for everyday and hard use.

Thanks for the kind words!

PS: The new gripper grooves inside the locking area (thumb relief) serves as a better grip for unlocking with your thumb and as a grip for your index finger while gripping the knife in the normal position.

Darrel
 
The Camillus is a small knife that has to cover many types of users.
The company decided that it would be better to make a thumb relief for the EDC. This was to serve the mass's. The lock is still very strong and reliable.

The CUDA MAXX has the straight across locking system.

Darrel
 
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