Framelock security "throw down"...

[stabman]

Nevermind.

 

[chiral.grolim]

1. When the knife is at 90 degrees, all forces acting downwards are counteracted by equal linear forces. When the knife is NOT at 90 degrees...
2. The linear forces on the lock interface act perpendicular to the lock bar when the knife is at 90 degrees. When the knife is at another angle...

Your analyses is 2 dimensional, it should be in 3 dimensions. Downward force at any angle on your x/y-axis puts outward force (along the Z axis) on the lock-bar. That is inherent in the design. Canting the knife slightly only increases the force on the lock-bar, increasing the outward (z-axis) force as well. This is not the case with other designs.

 

[B.F.U]

Holy crap, I can't believe people consider throwing a knife on a wood block blade first as "abuse". Wow. You gentlemen need to get out and use your blades more. If you have a blade that you "use" and not keeping super safe and sparkly for collecting purposes then you'd realize how ridiculous your comments are. Unless you are just framelock fanboys.

OP, I don't trust framelocks for this exact reason. I use them very cautiously. I didn't think this was such an unknown event in the knife world. Many companies use secondary measures due to this issue. It's not knew. ALL my use blades are fixed.....except my leatherman wave...that gets a pass.

Man, if I hate it when people cry troll. But if I've ever seen a post meant to receive a general negative reaction this is it.

If you don't like the frame lock on your sage then sell it at an extremely lowered price with an extremely detailed description of this "test" and many pictures of the lock/components.

 

[bpeezer]

Your analyses is 2 dimensional, it should be in 3 dimensions. Downward force at any angle on your x/y-axis puts outward force (along the Z axis) on the lock-bar. That is inherent in the design. Canting the knife slightly only increases the force on the lock-bar, increasing the outward (z-axis) force as well. This is not the case with other designs.

It does not have to be 3 dimensional to show the difference between the knife landing at 90 degrees or oblique to the surface. It would be if we were calculating actual numerical values, but we can see the loss of structural integrity from a 2 dimensional thought experiment.

 

[Bob6794]

Holy crap, I can't believe people consider throwing a knife on a wood block blade first as "abuse". Wow. You gentlemen need to get out and use your blades more. If you have a blade that you "use" and not keeping super safe and sparkly for collecting purposes then you'd realize how ridiculous your comments are. Unless you are just framelock fanboys.

OP, I don't trust framelocks for this exact reason. I use them very cautiously. I didn't think this was such an unknown event in the knife world. Many companies use secondary measures due to this issue. It's not knew. ALL my use blades are fixed.....except my leatherman wave...that gets a pass.

I imagine most of us tend to use our folding knives to cut with, not stab or throw into other objects. If you want to throw a knife into a block of wood you buy a throwing knife as another member pointed out. A framelock knife is not designed for this type of use.

 

[gytheran]

Holy crap, I can't believe people consider throwing a knife on a wood block blade first as "abuse".

It is abuse. If you want throwing knives, buy throwing knives. The steel is softer to handle the force of impact better. Regular knives are hardened to maintain edge retention. Throwing a knife not designed for throwing is asking for it to break... and it will eventually.

 

[Kwon Kwang]

On one hand, this is silly abuse and you shouldn't throw any knife that isn't designed for it.

On the other hand, I prefer framelocks over liner locks, but I'd only rely on a Tri-Ad, Compression, Bearing or Axis lock when it comes to serious use, because, well...they're the best.

 

[HwangJino]

I guess I won't hammer with my framelocks.

 

[jac_solar]

Framelocks and linerlocks act on an angle in the tang -- so, when you throw it, and the blade gets stuck, the force of the handle, and framelock, will push it sideways and out of the locked position.

 

[McVeyMac]

Holy crap, I can't believe people consider throwing a knife on a wood block blade first as "abuse". Wow. You gentlemen need to get out and use your blades more. If you have a blade that you "use" and not keeping super safe and sparkly for collecting purposes then you'd realize how ridiculous your comments are. Unless you are just framelock fanboys.

OP, I don't trust framelocks for this exact reason. I use them very cautiously. I didn't think this was such an unknown event in the knife world. Many companies use secondary measures due to this issue. It's not knew. ALL my use blades are fixed.....except my leatherman wave...that gets a pass.

My EDC lineup for today.



Now, where did I put my chopping block?

 

[MJF]

McVey....Only three fixed blades and two flashlights? Are you sure you have enough flashlights?

 

[Cereal_killer]

Holy crap, I can't believe people consider throwing a knife on a wood block blade first as "abuse". Wow. You gentlemen need to get out and use your blades more. If you have a blade that you "use" and not keeping super safe and sparkly for collecting purposes then you'd realize how ridiculous your comments are. Unless you are just framelock fanboys.

OP, I don't trust framelocks for this exact reason. I use them very cautiously. I didn't think this was such an unknown event in the knife world. Many companies use secondary measures due to this issue. It's not knew. ALL my use blades are fixed.....except my leatherman wave...that gets a pass.

In short it is abuse, I don't have any "safe queens"/collector knives, I use all my knives, even my most expensive ones hard, put them to real work (not just opening mail and cutting strings) and I have no problem damaging them or dulling them or putting huge dings in the edge or even breaking the tip off prying something (tho I do try not to) but there are some things you just don't ask of some tools, throwing a folding knife is one of those things.

I wouldn't use my snap-on ratchet to hammer nails in and then wonder why its not working right as a ratchet later, of course its heavy/hard enough to do some hammering but that doesn't mean its designed for it, its a ratchet, it's designed to turn sockets. Knives are meant to be used hard yes, but there is a limit, you can only abuse them so much, "the right tool for the job" isn't just a meaningless phrase...

 

[chiral.grolim]

Throwing a knife not designed for throwing is asking for it to break... and it will eventually.

Off topic but this is a MYTH except the last part in that ALL things break "eventually" I have knives hardened above 58 Hrc and not explicitly designed for throwing and all can be thrown repeatedly without fracture. Like batonning, throwing a knife stresses it in ways that some knives endure better than others. The reason that some knives break while others do not is more complicated than simple Rc hardness. Similarly, lower Rc does not guarantee avoidance of fracture.

 

[bpeezer]

ALL things break "eventually"

True facts

 

[benchwarmer380]

Holy crap, I can't believe people consider throwing a knife on a wood block blade first as "abuse". Wow. You gentlemen need to get out and use your blades more. If you have a blade that you "use" and not keeping super safe and sparkly for collecting purposes then you'd realize how ridiculous your comments are. Unless you are just framelock fanboys.

OP, I don't trust framelocks for this exact reason. I use them very cautiously. I didn't think this was such an unknown event in the knife world. Many companies use secondary measures due to this issue. It's not knew. ALL my use blades are fixed.....except my leatherman wave...that gets a pass.

If I recall accurately, every folding knife I have bought/traded for that included the papers have specifically said not to throw their knives.
To be fair, they sometimes tell me not to take them apart too. Should I not believe everything I read?

Bpeezer, I want that folder in your drawing.

 

[bpeezer]

Bpeezer, I want that folder in your drawing.

It was supposed to be a Sage 2, but my artwork probably made it look a little funny

 

[RevDevil]

I feel like some of the comments may have been a tad sarcastic...

Well, it is a rather unorthodox and gross way of "testing" something i would imagine, what exactly, I am not sure.

an its designed for it, its a ratchet, it's designed to turn sockets. Knives are meant to take abuse, especially higher end ones like a Sage 2 is, but "the right tool for the job" isn't just a meaningless phrase...

Hmm, not according to the manufacturer of that specific knife. Knives are actually designed to cut things with, not to abuse. The right tool for the job apparently is a meaningless phrase to many out there.

 

[Joshua J.]

While out chopping wood the other day (with an axe, not a knife..) I thought it would be "fun" to throw my Sage 2 tip first into the chopping block, and see how deep it would stick. So I'm just standing next to the chopping block (an old stump I use), and I throw with moderate force so as to be careful it actually hits tip first into it. No problem, an easy trick for most of us I suspect.

Now here's the rub... Whenever the knife stuck at a perfect 90 degree angle with the ground (i.e. straight up), it was fine. But if it was even 10-15 degrees less than 90 (towards the open part of the frame side), it would stick in the wood just fine BUT the frame lock would disengage! I repeated this over again several times, 100% consistently. Handling the Sage 2 I can find absolutely no "lock rock" or play in any direction, and I can't manually cause it to disengage by pushing hard on the blade. In other words, there's nothing about the lockup (frame engages tange at about 40% of the way in, pretty optimal as far as leaving room for wear) in "normal" usage that would indicate it would fail like that.

But there's more... I repeated with exactly with a brand new ZT 566. (I also remember this happening years ago with a Benchmade CQC7 that I had, albeit it was the liner lock failing. I think it even bent/deformed after that particular test)

This shakes my faith in frame locks a bit! And it makes me wonder if there are any physicists who can calculate the forces involved from a moderate "throw down" of a folding framelock knife into a chopping block and compare that to the sort of force that would be applied to the lock in more "normal" usage, like when using the knife for chopping, etc.

ps. I'm gonna try this test with all of my framelocks to see if it affects my 561 or 550 as well. I may also try it with my lock backs.

Cheers

You're not supposed to have faith in a lock, much less a framelock. The old adage, going along with Murphy's law, "if it can fold, it will".

Here's a quote from my last review:
"I've basically come to the conclusion that both framelocks and liner locks should not intentionally be subjected to stress. They will wear out and become unreliable if you subject them to impacts or heavy stress on a regular basis. These things are here to keep the blade open in regular use, not pry a house apart."
The framelock and linerlock specifically are inherently unstable. They resist forces with the tip of a long bar on a lock face that's angled,
it's all working against the security of the lock.
Last winter I tried digging baler twine out of icy bales with a big beefy framelock, It failed, I kind of expected it to, but none the less I was a little saddened. The bottom line is don't treat folders like fixed blades, you could get anything to fail in somewhat mundane ways if you wanted.
Throwing the knife is probably one of those ways.

I still like the framelock though, it holds the blade open and it's easy to clean, that's all you really need.

 

[benchwarmer380]

It was supposed to be a Sage 2, but my artwork probably made it look a little funny

A nice homage with a bit of your own style. Sage 1 is currently my only Spydie.

 

[McVeyMac]

McVey....Only three fixed blades and two flashlights? Are you sure you have enough flashlights?

Sorry, I only recently started collecting flashlights. I'll probably be able to do better in a month or so. Redundant systems is sometimes the key to success. And with my aging eyes, redundancy in that department is important as well.