Framelock security "throw down"...

[gytheran]

Off topic but this is a MYTH except the last part in that ALL things break "eventually" I have knives hardened above 58 Hrc and not explicitly designed for throwing and all can be thrown repeatedly without fracture. Like batonning, throwing a knife stresses it in ways that some knives endure better than others. The reason that some knives break while others do not is more complicated than simple Rc hardness. Similarly, lower Rc does not guarantee avoidance of fracture.

Just because is hasn't broken yet, doesn't mean it won't the next time you throw it. And yes, the higher the RC, the more brittle the steel becomes. How is it even remotely close to a myth? Do you understand the difference between throwing knives and non throwing knives and how RC (Rockwell, C scale if you didn't know) relates to hardness and toughness of steel? The harder the steel, the less apt it is to be able to withstand the immense forces you are putting on the blade by slamming it into an object. The shock of these impacts cause micro fractures within the steel and those micro fractures will lead to a catastrophic failure. There is a reason REAL throwing knives are hardened at a lower RC rating... It's not make believe...

Just because you don't understand doesn't mean you should automatically throw out what others say because it doesn't fit within YOUR idea of what your tools are designed for, even though the manufacturers specifically state otherwise.

 

[MJF]

Sorry, I only recently started collecting flashlights. I'll probably be able to do better in a month or so. Redundant systems is sometimes the key to success. And with my aging eyes, redundancy in that department is important as well.

I'm just ribbing ya' a little bit. No insult intended.

 

[chiral.grolim]

I have commented specifically upon this topic in the past, indeed started a couple of threads about it around the forum, I know more about the topic than you realize but this is the most salient point:

Just because you don't understand doesn't mean you should automatically throw out what others say because it doesn't fit within YOUR idea of what your tools are designed for, even though the manufacturers specifically state otherwise.

If a manufacturer states that HIS tool will fail when thrown, I'll take his word even if he is wrong. But if a manufacturer states that ALL such tools will fail when thrown, I already know otherwise.
Not all steel is the same, not all manufacturing protocols and quality control is the same (e.g. integrity of the steel in the product). Further, not all geometry is the same.

Some steels are left soft because they are prone to failure under certain stresses. Most "throwing" knives are left soft as a safeguard against poor steel choice and poor manufacture and quality control. Heck, most KITCHEN knives are left soft for the same reasons! But not ALL. Some steels are brittle (i.e. low impact toughness) at 58 Rc, others not so much.

http://corse76.altervista.org/col.php?noti2=resilienza

Reality often confounds theory.

 

[McVeyMac]

I'm just ribbing ya' a little bit. No insult intended.

Believe me, none taken.

 

[Cereal_killer]

Hmm, not according to the manufacturer of that specific knife. Knives are actually designed to cut things with, not to abuse. The right tool for the job apparently is a meaningless phrase to many out there.

I reworded my post (post #32), I used the word "abuse" when I meant "hard use". Thanks for pointing that out. You are correct that they arnt meant to be abused but they are designed to be strong enough to use for more that cuttings strings and opening mail. The point is, hard use isn't an issue but you have to know and respect any tool's limits, a knife or a ratchet or anything else. Like any tool from a quality manufacturer I'm sure Spyderco over-engineered their knives to stand up to more than you *should* ask of it, but again throwing a folding knife isn't at all considered normal "hard use" and is so far above and beyond the intended purpose how can anyone fault that knife for not taking it.


You don't need two slabs of Ti, a R.I.L. and a high quality, flat ground CPM-S30V blade with great F&F to open a few packages a week and cut loose threads off your shirt, car keys, even safety scissors could do those tasks, it's quite obviously over built and is plenty capable of hard use, but there is a point where your no longer using it hard and are just flat out abusing it... Like you said, "the right tool..."

 

[zdp189]

For the record:

-- I love my Sage 2, and I would by another if I ever need to. And I would recommend it to friends and family. I love all of my Spyderco knives in fact.
-- I've been a Spyderco fan since the 90's and I've bought several knives right there at their factory in Golden Co. (sort of a pilgrimage)
-- I'm also becoming a bigger and bigger fan of ZT, and I love my 566/561/550


Look, I'm not trolling I'm just a guy who is used to throwing his axe or knife into his chopping block while working in the yard as way of "putting in on hold" until I need it next. Is that so uncommon? And I've never had any non-framelock/liner lock folders close up on me before when doing this. It just makes me wonder about the security of a "hard use" folder having a liner lock, and raises my awareness of their limitations. I still LOVE the simplicity and other well noted advantages of frame/liner locks.

 

[evanPGH]

That's it, I'm never going to buy another knife again. If the locks fail under ridiculous tests (read: abuse) which they were never designed to withstand how can I tell that they won't just up and close on my hands for no good reason at any time??? What is this world coming to if I can't even trust my knives not to close when I'm throwing them, this is a totally real world use test right here. I mean, what if I need to silently deanimate some sentries or something from 50 yards away...surely my liner or frame lock pocket knife should be able to handle this kind of stress without the lock failing. Failures of this type are OUTRAGEOUS! I'm going to upgrade my membership to platinum level and sell all of my knives on the exchange, just in case.

Why would you do that??! You can sell with a gold membership.

This thread is just silly.

 

[McVeyMac]

Reality often confounds theory.

So true! When I was in graduate school, I learned that very little that was taught to me as an undergraduate regarding the discipline that I was pursuing was actually true, at least to the extent that it was being taught. Sure, it was true under this, that and the other circumstance (variables), but if one of the variables change, the outcome changes. The older I get, the less I know. At 57 I would assert that I know nothing for sure, unless the variables are defined.

 

[zdp189]

Just to clarify. If you read my original post I described standing next to the chopping block (stump) and "throwing" the knife into it with moderate force. It probably traveled 6 inches in the air max. I'm not using it as a "throwing knife", I'm just making it stick in my chopping block without having to actually "stab" the chopping block.

If you've never done that with a knife or axe before while working with it outdoors (such as when moving back and forth between chopping/cutting tasks), then I'm shocked that you're shocked....

 

[chiral.grolim]

Just to clarify. If you read my original post I described standing next to the chopping block (stump) and "throwing" the knife into it with moderate force. It probably traveled 6 inches in the air max. I'm not using it as a "throwing knife", I'm just making it stick in my chopping block without having to actually "stab" the chopping block.

If you've never done that with a knife or axe before while working with it outdoors (such as when moving back and forth between chopping/cutting tasks), then I'm shocked that you're shocked....

:thumbup: I do it all the time, just not with slip-joints or frame/liner-locks that lack a secondary lock. Now you know what to expect from those knives when used thus. Learning is fun! (when you don't lose a finger)

 

[glocker199]

Am I the only one who thought this thread was going to be about cheap framelocks hat you might have to "throw down" if you encountered security/metal detectors?

 

[McVeyMac]

Just to clarify. If you read my original post I described standing next to the chopping block (stump) and "throwing" the knife into it with moderate force. It probably traveled 6 inches in the air max. I'm not using it as a "throwing knife", I'm just making it stick in my chopping block without having to actually "stab" the chopping block.

If you've never done that with a knife or axe before while working with it outdoors (such as when moving back and forth between chopping/cutting tasks), then I'm shocked that you're shocked....

zdp189, I read your post exactly as you had meant it. I never thought that you were abusing the knife. I found it very interesting that the lock failed under what I thought was rather minimal forces from your explanation, and I found it very interesting and educational from the explanations as to why it might have failed from chiral.gromlin and others. I have enjoyed this thread, and I have learned something. Thanks for posting it.

 

[gytheran]

Just to clarify. If you read my original post I described standing next to the chopping block (stump) and "throwing" the knife into it with moderate force. It probably traveled 6 inches in the air max. I'm not using it as a "throwing knife", I'm just making it stick in my chopping block without having to actually "stab" the chopping block.

If you've never done that with a knife or axe before while working with it outdoors (such as when moving back and forth between chopping/cutting tasks), then I'm shocked that you're shocked....

Your definition of "moderate" must differ from mine. An no, I cannot ever recall throwing or stabbing a folding knife into a piece of wood. Fixed blade, that's a different story, but I still have never thrown them.

 

[gytheran]

http://corse76.altervista.org/col.php?noti2=resilienza

Reality often confounds theory.

Your link proves my point. As the hardness goes up, the toughness goes down... and dramatically.

 

[chiral.grolim]

Your link proves my point. As the hardness goes up, the toughness goes down... and dramatically.

440C @ 58Rc = 22J
S90V @ 58Rc = 26J
S90V @ 57Rc = 16J
L6 @ 57Rc = 92J
CPM3V @ 60Rc = 95J
S7 @ 57Rc = 165J
D2 @ 58Rc = 30J
D2 @ 60Rc = 31J
O1 @ 58Rc = 41J
A2 @ 58Rc = 45J
A2 @ 59Rc = 50J
A2 @ 60Rc = 56J

I see toughness going down as hardness goes down in there... and some places where higher hardness comes with higher toughness in a different steel Amazing! Or not so much. Now show me data demonstrating that the force generated by throwing a hardened knife overcomes its material toughness in the manner you describe. or you can start a new thread on the topic as this isn't really part of the OP.

 

[McVeyMac]

:thumbup: I do it all the time, just not with slip-joints or frame/liner-locks that lack a secondary lock. Now you know what to expect from those knives when used thus. Learning is fun! (when you don't lose a finger)

All fun and games until someone looses an eye, then it's just fun.

 

[zdp189]

Your definition of "moderate" must differ from mine.

Must resist urge to snark.....

 

[zdp189]

Your link proves my point. As the hardness goes up, the toughness goes down... and dramatically.

That may be true at the extremes, but that's too simplistic an explanation in general.

 

[MJF]

Why would you do that??! You can sell with a gold membership.

This thread is just silly.

'CAUSE OF HOW OUTRAGED I AM!

Seriously though, even a small off center throw will put a lot of force on a lock, simply because of inertia and the sudden stop of the blade portion of the knife. That energy has to go somewhere, and in a linerlock/framelock, it's going straight into the lock, causing it to either disengage or collapse. The kind of forces you're likely to place on the knife in that situation really don't factor in to actual use though.

 

[DarkPatriot]

Holy crap, I can't believe people consider throwing a knife on a wood block blade first as "abuse". Wow. You gentlemen need to get out and use your blades more. If you have a blade that you "use" and not keeping super safe and sparkly for collecting purposes then you'd realize how ridiculous your comments are. Unless you are just framelock fanboys.

OP, I don't trust framelocks for this exact reason. I use them very cautiously. I didn't think this was such an unknown event in the knife world. Many companies use secondary measures due to this issue. It's not knew. ALL my use blades are fixed.....except my leatherman wave...that gets a pass.

Not sure how throwing a knife would fall under "normal use" or use in general. All my folders are users, mostly axis locks but there's a zt 560 in the line up. They're used hard (large animal vet tech, I've had to stab a couple cows to relieve bloat in the field, among other things. I've also been in the army. Never ended up throwing my knives for any reason other than entertainment. ESEE considers it abuse, I agree with that assessment.