Friction Forged Blades : CATRA tests

Coat the blades.

DOH! I hate it when I miss something as obvious as that. Thanks for the suggestion.

Carl
-------------------------------
It is not necessary to believe things in order to reason about them
It is not necessary to understand things in order to argue about them.
- P.A. Caron de Beaumarchais, French Author, 1732-1799
 
DOH! I hate it when I miss something as obvious as that. Thanks for the suggestion.


It is something to be considered, but there are even variables there. If the normal finish on the steel is smooth, most coatings will not want to stick. Even KG Guncote likes a bead blasted surface. Many coatings also require some sort of heat, like a powdercoating which requires baking.

Would any of this possibly negatively impact the results of experimentation?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Would any of this possibly negatively impact the results of experimentation?


Possibly -- it's something to be reviewed. If testing could prove that the coating had no affect on the performance of either blade, then we could use coated blades.

If one assumes that the performance differences between the different blades are due to edge characteristics, rather than due to the characteristics of the sides of the blades, then it would seem reasonable that a coating on the side of the blade would not affect the results. It would also be possible to coat the blades up to within a fixed distance from the edge, leaving both the edge and the part of the blade side closest to the edge (which presumably has the largest effect on performance) uncoated.

At any rate, the effects of coatings are available to be studied, and that's a potential way to get a double blind study done.

A second way we could make our hand-oiff tests double blind that I had not previously considered would be to have two people involved in the testing. One would handle the blades, installing them in the test equipment. THe other would run the test equipment, and report the results. Because the running is done by computer, the computer operator would be ignorant of which blade was in the test machine.

This is good food for thought for future tests.

Thanks for the ideas.

Carl
-------------------------------
It is not necessary to believe things in order to reason about them
It is not necessary to understand things in order to argue about them.
- P.A. Caron de Beaumarchais, French Author, 1732-1799
 
Painter's tape would also work.

I don't think so, am fairly certain that it would induce drag on any cutting media, and ANY residual adhesive would be a magnet for particulate debris.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Please don't coat the blades, double blind test, or do anything else in attempt to satisfy the unsatisfiable for my sake - especially if the costs of doing so have any potential for raising the MSRP!! I would prefer devoting efforts to lowering costs and getting them more affordable (I may not be able to afford two off the bat now).

And good luck on discovering how to correctly analyze your data. Once you figure that out, I hope you don't have to let Wayne G. go... ;)
 
The problem is that there is no reference. What steels would have chipped when given the same treatment. What steels also would not have. You need baselines. Use stock heat treatments on other steels which are public knowledge.

Cliff,

I understand the limitations of our data. That's why I said the following.

When we made our first FFD2 blades, we went after the chop torture tests. We chopped wood, bone, antler, desert ironwood, brick, cast iron, and other knife blades.

We never observed fracture at the edge of the process zone. We did occasionally see chips in the blade, but they were far smaller in FFD2 than in any other alloy we tried.

These results weren't scientific, so we haven't included them in our paper. And I should point out that the blade geometry we had in the chop tests was more robust (thicker, and larger included angle) than in the FFD2 knives about to come out on the market.

But as incomplete as it is, anecdotal evidence is still stronger in my book than statements that say what "should" happen, when the material in question hasn't even by examined by the person making the statement.

Carl
-------------------------------
It is not necessary to believe things in order to reason about them
It is not necessary to understand things in order to argue about them.
- P.A. Caron de Beaumarchais, French Author, 1732-1799
 
You would do that in the initial stages to verify the robustness of the of the fitting, I do that as well, but I was speaking of using monte carlo methods to generate pseudo data sets to show the results that the noise will have on the inferences. You generally only do this when it is difficult to calculate the uncertainties directly from the correlation matrix. But now you can generate 100 data sets and look at the model spread graphically instantly on even a regular home system. It used to take me longer just to type in the command to initiate the program than it would be for the program to update the graph.



You clearly don't understand my style of coding, that would be a cruel thing to force on someone. The algorithm is actually quite simple, it is just brute force methods on curve intersection. For each point on one curve you find the point on the other curve which bound it, i.e. y1(x1) < y2(x) < y1(x2). Start off assuming the same point and then just go up or down as required to find the bounds. Now do a linear/spine approximation to get the approximate intersect value, i.e., y1(x')=y2(x).

This ratio x/x' is then the cut ratio, which means quite simply how much more material one blade can cut than another to a given sharpness. That is what most people would be interested in (the sharpness ratio at a cut length is of course trivial to calculate y2(x)/y1(x)). This procedure is repeated for the domain to generate the cut ratio data set. Now to take into account the noise in the data you do a montecarlo simulation on the raw data to thus produce a set of cut ratio values and you can present the mean values of these.

I started doing this because I didn't like the fact that the cut ratio was dependent on the model of the data regardless of how it fit so I made its calculation independent. The model I still use because I want to determine how to actually calculate the parameters from the physical properties of the steel, wear resistance and so on. Plus I wanted to make a point that you will see the same general trend in blunting no matter what media, method of cutting, grit, angle, etc. .

I also want to make it clear that the process is nonlinear because as it very clear in the above almost no one understands what this implies and hence the absurd statements which are made which are very unrealistic and even insensible. There needs to be an understanding that saying steel A has 10% better edge retention than steel B is just nonsense given the nonlinearity of the problem. You can't average either, it is just as meaningess. You can of course give a range but you have to be clear always about what you are saying.



Unless they are the exact one I noted y(x)=c you can not use an average to compare. The reason I use the model I do to fit sharpness/cutting ability is because it is based on the physics of blunting, it isn't an emperical model. This is a very critical point. Of course there are many emperical models but these are very different, a simple infinite power series will fit any function obviously, this is basic calculus. But this has no basic in physical modeling which is what I proposed.

-Cliff

Cliff,

This discussion is about edge retention testing and analysis, not FFD2 blades. So I've started a new thread on edge retention testing and analysis. How about we take discussions on methods for doing data analysis over there, and when we get agreement we come back to this thread with some more specifics on FFD2?

I think that would help those who care more about knives than about curve fitting, but would allow us to get in some good technical discussions.

Carl
-------------------------------
It is not necessary to believe things in order to reason about them
It is not necessary to understand things in order to argue about them.
- P.A. Caron de Beaumarchais, French Author, 1732-1799
 
Please don't coat the blades, double blind test, or do anything else in attempt to satisfy the unsatisfiable for my sake - especially if the costs of doing so have any potential for raising the MSRP!! I would prefer devoting efforts to lowering costs and getting them more affordable (I may not be able to afford two off the bat now).

And good luck on discovering how to correctly analyze your data. Once you figure that out, I hope you don't have to let Wayne G. go... ;)

You don't have to worry about that. The blades are on their way to market as-is. But we're planning on continuous improvement, and the better the test methods are, the more confident we are of the improvements we go after.

Carl
-------------------------------
It is not necessary to believe things in order to reason about them
It is not necessary to understand things in order to argue about them.
- P.A. Caron de Beaumarchais, French Author, 1732-1799
 
Sharpening friction forged blades will not require anything other than a good combination stone like the India/Crystalon by Norton. The medium grit Crystalon (silicon carbide) side of the stone will remove steel from the hardest blade and the fine India (aluminum oxide) side will bring the edge to hair shaving sharp. The fine side is also used to take the wire edge off. The FFD2 at 67 Rc takes some fine cuts at a steeper angle to remove the wire, just as with softer blades.
The wire edge is ignored by many sharpen systems. However, to get the full potential out of any blade it has to be true sharp (wire edge removed) not false sharp with the wire edge lined up. Meat cutters and cooks work with the wire edge on the knife and keep it perfectly lined up with a steel. While this edge cuts veggies and meat like they were butter it is a defective edge for a hunting, or working knife for utility use.
I use the household strength Simple Green as a sharpening fluid, it gives an excellent cutting action with the harder blades and keep the stones clean and free cutting.
I’ll be using the India/Crystalon to sharpen a dull FFD2 blade at the sharpening class this Sunday at BLADE Show in Atlanta. If you’re in the neighborhood drop in and see what’s going on.
 
But as incomplete as it is, anecdotal evidence is still stronger in my book than statements that say what "should" happen, when the material in question hasn't even by examined by the person making the statement.

I don't make statements based on vague opinions, they are based on years of working with blades in detail and supported by materials science and the underlying math/physics. That is far stronger than vague anecdotal statements which are undefined and like I said - everyone says the exact same thing so such statements are meaningless. If I drop a coffee mug, it isn't a "should" that its behavior will be as I described. Now if the math/physics is wrong, then of course point it out.

-Cliff
 
Friction Stir Welding has been used with Titanium, but the tools that are used are made of tungsten, and bits of the tungsten end up in the titanium zone. It might be useful for knives, but as far as I know, nobody's tried it for knives.

Carl
-------------------------------
It is not necessary to believe things in order to reason about them
It is not necessary to understand things in order to argue about them.
- P.A. Caron de Beaumarchais, French Author, 1732-1799

Judging by how many people buy Titanium dive knives as is, I suspect that demand for a Ti knife that can actually hold a decent edge would be quite high.
 
Now if the math/physics is wrong, then of course point it out.
-Cliff

You haven't yet explained the math well enough that I can tell if it's right or wrong. Almost every time I ask a specific question I get a general answer. I can't get confirmation as to whether my assumptions are correct. So when I can't get you to help me to understand what the math is, how can I possibly decide if it's right or wrong?

Carl
-------------------------------
It is not necessary to believe things in order to reason about them
It is not necessary to understand things in order to argue about them.
- P.A. Caron de Beaumarchais, French Author, 1732-1799
 
I don't make statements based on vague opinions, they are based on years of working with blades in detail and supported by materials science and the underlying math/physics. -Cliff


You may not make statements based on "vague opinions" on STEEL, but you have made mostly uninformed comments about the manufacturing and marketing of production cutlery FREQUENTLY, as well as some personal attacks directed at people by your own admission, that you have never met, or personally know.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
In my opinion, the width of the hardened portion of the FFD2 blades will be adequate for a lifetime of use. A serious use hunting knife I made in 1980 (D-5) has been in nearly constant use by a customer and has field dressed and skinned 57 big game animals. The knife has also been used for processing the meat on some of the animals. The total wear on the belly of the blade is about 30% the width of the hard portion on the FFD2 blades. If all the initial tests of edge holding ability hold up, the FFD2 will need to be sharpened something like 25% (or less) less than the D5 blade and perhaps as much as 15% less than is necessary for standard D2 at 60Rc.

Wayne

Wayne,

Just to clarify, when you said 25% less, did you mean you'd go 5 animals between sharpening instead of 4, or did you mean 16 animals instead of 4?

Similarly you said "as much as 15% less". Did you mean only 1/7 as often?

At Tejon, when you did these calculations based on rope cutting, I thought you said that FFD2 cut 300 times, and your best Phil Wilson cut 80 times, so your edge life was nearly 4 times greater.

If I'm not correct, please straighten me out. And better yet, it would be great if you could provide your cutting test data.

Thanks,

Carl
 
Carl asked Wayne

Just to clarify, when you said 25% less, did you mean you'd go 5 animals between sharpening instead of 4, or did you mean 16 animals instead of 4?

When I said sharpened 25% less it would translate to four times more skinning or whatever was being cut for each sharpening job.

Similarly you said "as much as 15% less". Did you mean only 1/7 as often?

Yes, I think I meant as much as 1/7 as often.

At Tejon, when you did these calculations based on rope cutting, I thought you said that FFD2 cut 300 times, and your best Phil Wilson cut 80 times, so your edge life was nearly 4 times greater.

Those cut numbers were correct or very close and edge life compared to the best cuts I&#8217;ve got are approximately four times greater. And, nearly ten times better than average knives. The best Phil Wilson blade I&#8217;ve tested may not be his best, it may be CPM 154CM.

If I'm not correct, please straighten me out. And better yet, it would be great if you could provide your cutting test data.

Maynard and I will be cutting rope real soon and we&#8217;ll have a Phil Wilson CPM 154CM to throw in the pot. Charles is sending two Traditional Hunters to Phil for his testing program, and we will shortly have some all new test data. I&#8217;m going to put together a D2, 60Rc, Ohio Knife Co planer blade steel test knife so we can verify the results we got with that steel back in the 70&#8217;s when we started. We&#8217;ll be able to compare our numbers with the rope we have today with the rope used back then.

All knives are very close in cross section and the sharpening on our tests is always a burr free, fine India edge.

Wayne
 
Could you ff an entire blade, or FSW a d2 edge to a high chromium spine? Just thinking that avoiding rust on the whole knife might make it useful in some applications
 
Wayne Goddard just got the Industry Achievement award at Blade. Congrats, Wayne!!

Cliff Stamp might stay at a Holiday Inn at some point in his life.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Back
Top