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Maybe a newbie version of shop talk is needed , not to diss the newbie sticky but there is way more info and helpful advice in threads not included in it that lead to the same questions being asked every few days . I'm not willing to search through the threads to find all the info so maybe I should shut up about the newbie sticky but the idea of a newbie area is good. What the criteria to be in either sub forum I don't know . But an area for those brand new to ask the same questions over and over again might free up this sub forum and bring back posters. A new member or knife maker could be directed to look there first before posting here . Just a thought , I'd probably post in both since there are lots of newbie questions that I have and believe it or not I don't post here because it would seem embarrassing to me to ask something really simple that I haven't read or tried or learned yet and from time to time a more advanced or complicated question comes . Experienced makers who answer the same questions over and over again can do it there. In my opinion it would be up to the individual if they choose to answer questions in the Newbie Forum. It might alleviate some of the frustrations of more experienced blade smiths and makers and encourage more discussion on more advanced technique , advice ect. It's up to the owners and mod's to do what they see fit, but as an earlier poster said those who have paid to keep this forum going should have a voice regardless of experience or skill since they are kinda like stakeholders in this forum and pay for privileges. I know of other forums that are separated and have area's only paying members can access . I'm not sure if that's the direction BF wants to take because a lot of normal members are very experienced and talented .
 
Don't forgo the search! You can find tons of information that may not get answered in a new thread. If you don't like the forum search, use google - put "site:bladeforums.com" in with your search and you will only get results from bladeforums.com.
 
alb1k said:
Don't forgo the search! You can find tons of information that may not get answered in a new thread. If you don't like the forum search, use google - put "site:bladeforums.com" in with your search and you will only get results from bladeforums.com.
Click to expand...

I use the advanced search and google search before I start a new thread now , I'm guilty of typical newbie behavior when I first joined and got obsessed with knives. Maybe a poll should be made about a Newbie sub forum or not I think it would be a positive and alleviate the perceived and real clutter and the same question asked over and over that a similar thread is 5 threads down answers.
 
As pointed out the search engine to use is:
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra
Put it on your tool bar and you can search anytime you want.
Unfortunately, the search engine won't actually read the threads for you, you still have to do that.

One problem today is that many people, mainly younger folks, want what they want now and with little or no effort. The actual reading and learning of an entire book/subject are not considered necessary when you can just ask 24/7, and someone else will tell you what you need to know. This is why our students compare poorly against other nations, and why our engineering and sciences are failing . The problem only gets worse with the availability of full time connection to the internet. Why take a book , when you can take your smart phone. I ask people to honestly think when the last time they sat down and read a whole non-fiction book....probably been back at school for many.
While the info that is available is amazing, it may give you no understanding of the subject. That comes from taking the time to fully learn the skill....an effort which fewer and fewer people want to expend.

That search engine is listed in the stickies under "Newbies - Good Info Here".
90% of the questions asked are in the stickies. I don't know how much clearer we could make it.
Perhaps reorganizing them as a FAQ would help. It bears consideration, but would be nearly a full time job for someone to manage. Tell you what, Every Shop Talk reader send me $5 in an envelope, and I'll run it.
Years back, another member and I worked up a website called "KnifeHow.com" it was a huge FAQ and link resource. It really was the place to get info fast and easy. Unfortunately, the fellow running it lost interest in keeping it up, and it was constantly invaded with spam.

As far as having the newbies read a FAQ or intro section before they get posting privileges, I think you already know it wouldn't work. How many sites do you log onto, or software you download, and the box says "I have read all the rules for "BLADEFORUMS"(eg) and agree." You just check the "agree" box and go to what you wanted to see/get. You NEVER actually read the stuff - which is often fifty pages long.
You did the same when you joined Bladeforums.

My wife has to take CLE courses all the time as an attorney. Now, some are offered as online seminars. You pay you fee, log on, and virtually "attend" the seminar. The bar knows that you could just pay your fee, log on, and never participate/watch at all...just to get the required credits ( necessary to maintain your court privileges). So, every random number of minutes you have to click an attendance box. Miss a few of those and the credit as well as your fee is gone. I know that people do the same for real world seminars. The pay the fee and register, slap on the name tag, and disappear after the first break.
The problem with a site like Bladeforums, is we can't get that serious about making people follow the rules. All we can do is try to keep things on track.

As far as a newbie forum, I will end with another of my analogies:
"If the insects buzzing around the room are distracting you, opening another window won't solve the problem."
 
Stacy, a couple of responses.

First, I understand and agree with the frustration over people that don't bother to search the content you already have before asking the same questions everyone else has already asked. I understand it, but I have to be circumspect about it too. In all honesty, my entrance into the forum was very similar. I believe my first posts were just as inane. Some might argue they still are.

As for the comments about running a web site that is under constant attack by spammers, I know that all too well. I run a few web sites with message boards and have had to learn how to keep the sites open enough to be used, but closed enough that spammers find no easy auto-bottish means of placing their messages on the board. It takes some doing, but it can be done.

Unfortunately, the other thing I know from experience is that new web sites are slow and frustrating to get off the ground. Even if you have a rabid core group that comes with you on the journey, eventually the site does one of two things... it either peters out or it grows organically. Organic grow sounds like the better track, but with it comes the changing attitude about what the site ought to be and how it ought to be managed, and all the controls you put into place initially get dismantled one by one. Simple human dynamics. That can still be a good thing, if you can find someone that wants to manage what the site is becoming... but as you are probably well aware already, there are 1000 people with ideas about how things OUGHT to be done for every ONE person willing to do something to make those changes happen. It's nearly impossible to find volunteers that are both a) capable and b) willing.

Then again, maybe I'm just a pessimist. ;)

- Greg
 
bladsmth said:
One problem today is that many people, mainly younger folks, want what they want now and with little or no effort.
Click to expand...

Ain't that the truth! Most of them want instant gratification these days. That's why they like the internet so much.

When I taught at the college over half the students just signed up so they could have access to the power tools. They really didn't come to learn anything about metalsmithing, outside of maybe someone telling them which power tool to use. Finally, I shut the power tool room down and stated making them do things by hand. Naturally, my classes shrunk, which was O.K.

Maybe what we need is a forum for "senior citizens", and leave Shop Talk for the kids... LOL
 
Maybe it's the engineer side of me, but I still read books, magazines, articles, etc....

As far as separating the "old timers" from the "newbies", I just don't see that working to any level of satisfaction, as you'll always have crossover from both.

I think one solution may be stricter enforcement against the trouble makers and rabble rousers who clearly have no intentions of trying to better this community or add contructively/intelligently to any of the conversations.
I think we all know who they are.

I'm not saying this will solve every little problem or annoyance, but it's a step in the right direction, IMHO.
 
knife to a gunfight said:
I think one solution may be stricter enforcement against the trouble makers and rabble rousers who clearly have no intentions of trying to better this community or add contructively/intelligently to any of the conversations.
I think we all know who they are.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but we probably all have a different idea of who those folks are. I suppose it's anyone who doesn't agree with us. I don't think censorship is the way to go. Besides, I think everyone has something constructive to contribute,... at least occasionally.

I think it's more about tolerance, and that you have to sort of expect a forum like this to get a little chaotic at times.

... As mentioned, there is your ignore list option.
 
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I have read over 20 non-fiction books in the last 6 months but I'm probably an anomaly to the norm. I think a weekly somewhat structured love chat with a well known maker or group of makers would be an excellent addition . The structure could be a specific topic each week and then an open forum for questions to the pro. I know of one established maker that I could personally get to be the guest but members here could volunteer to be the SME ( Subject Matter Expert ) for the topic of the week. This would be in addition to the Wednesday night chat. I believe that the channel is open 24/7 so it wouldn't take much to set up , just someone putting the time into finding guest speakers , organizing topics for the week and possibly having a set of questions on that weeks topic to be answered by the SME . We could have a thread to pick say 10 questions for the week and to find SME's , subjects of interest etc. There are members here that have connections or are SME's on a variety of subjects. This probably won't do anything for the newbie problem that most of us did when we first joined but might bring more people to BF and would be a great addition to the forum.
 
I think the ignore option is a good safety net. However, even though there are a few folks here who can irritate me at times, I have yet to use it.

… because, “ignore” is the root word of “ignorance“.
 
Speaking for myself as well,...

I think if our listening skills were at least half as good as our speaking skills,... we'd all be better off.
 
I had this ready for the poll thread, but it closed on me.

NickWheeler said:
I voted NO.

I like how BF Shop-talk is everything shop related, globbed together. It keeps things moving fast and interesting. Most forums that are all divided up move along VERY VERY VERY slow. I could do without SOME of the BS that's been going on lately... but in all honesty I get a kick out of quite a bit of it. I mean, if you got a few guys like Rick, James, and me in a shop, how much serious, non silly teenage boy type of nonsense, would be going on? Not much!!! :D It would be funny, dopey, silly crap, with some actual useful tips and ideas thrown in for good measure. :thumbup: :)

The problem I see with a "newbie" section, is 90% of the guys that would be able to give A REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE answer probably won't go in there... and 90% of the guys that should be posting in there would unwittingly post all their questions in Shoptalk anyway. And the 68.93875% of the population that just repeats stuff they've read or heard somewhere but don't actually know HOW TO DO, would think they're too advanced to be posting in a "lowly newbie" forum. ;) :)
Click to expand...

I think these comments are right on.

I just checked some shop pages on The knife Network & see posts from 2 to 4 months ago still on the first page.

I noticed that Knifedogs also put in a newbie section too - I don't agree with it.
The beauty of the public forum is that people with similar interests share their knowledge and experience.
The more people that participate the better -( to a point )
You never know who knows what.


Post quality and quantity are different issues, but I spend a lot of time here because the info is here.
I have noticed many good makers not here & I hope they do come back.
I hope they just trimmed tube time to get more work done & pay the bills; and that they haven’t given up on this place.

The Huge detailed WIP threads and links by Bruce Bump & Nick wheeler & others are so valuable to me.
As well as the equipment building WIP threads and links too
They have taught me many points that I couldn't get from all the books and videos I have.



Have a look at Youtube videos on "forging a knife" and see newbies; showing newbies; showing newbies
what they know, that they just got from another you tube video or even videogame.

When I first came here, I read every shop talk archived post up until the latest current posts.
It took a while to find the users you can trust responses to.
Sometimes the membership status helps, sometimes not.
New users have to figure out who the smart folks are.

I think an update organization and editing of the stickies would help, but it's a lot of work, & who knows it they would get read or not.

Perhaps, instead of putting it all on one person, people could volunteer for a section rewrite & submit it to a central editor.

knife to a gunfight said:
I think one solution may be stricter enforcement against the trouble makers and rabble rousers who clearly have no intentions of trying to better this community or add contructively/intelligently to any of the conversations.
I think we all know who they are.

I'm not saying this will solve every little problem or annoyance, but it's a step in the right direction, IMHO.
Click to expand...
I think that is one possible solution.
I like the light hearted atmosphere too, but
I think some could get hit with the infraction stick for "mod sass"
 
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"I could do without SOME of the BS that's been going on lately... but in all honesty I get a kick out of quite a bit of it. I mean, if you got a few guys like Rick, James, and me in a shop, how much serious, non silly teenage boy type of nonsense, would be going on? Not much!!! :D It would be funny, dopey, silly crap, with some actual useful tips and ideas thrown in for good measure." Nick Wheels

I think that's a great point! It's not like we're all sitting around the campfire here. In real life it would be much different.

No one would argue with me, Nick, Stacy, Rick, Ed and maybe James etc.. because of our radiant and charismatic physical presence...
 
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Yep! When you look like this, nobody at the camp fire messes with 'ya!!!


obese-dude-in-loin-cloth-camping-loin-obese-necklace-pierced-stupid-human-1299198044.jpg


Edited to say- I was about to give a forging demo.... so there is knife content in this post. Just say'n....
 
I have read the comments to the Newbie forum idea and agree it was a bad idea , the group of volunteers to help add , edit and fix up the stickies is a great idea. A kind warning worded properly and with respect when respect is given can't do harm , many people may be unaware of what they're doing and a email or pm can put them on the right track. It sorta worked for me and my posting habits but I'm a habitual line stepper , have been assessed by medical professionals as having anti-social behavioral patterns, some narcissistic character and I also have an IQ higher then 85% of the population from the standardized WAIS-IV test administered by professionals while doped up on painkillers I might add . A personality of INTJ doesn't help either or combat related injuries both physically and mentally. Not trying to make excuses for myself , I would like to be part of a group to edit/add to the newbie sticky if the moderators agree.
 
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You guys aren't helpin' ...you know?

NICK, That photo violates the posting rules for BF, and the public decency laws of at least six states.

I may have to lock my own thread. Jeez, give me a break :)

"I don't get no respect." - Rodney Dangerfield
 
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