Frustrated...

Matthew Gregory

Matthew Gregory

Chief Executive in charge of Entertainment
Joined
Jan 12, 2005
Messages
6,574
I work in an industry that is filled with lots of misinformation and snake oil. I do my damnedest to nullify the ill effects of this 'voodoo' through educating those I come in contact with, and by continuing to educate myself so that my own information is accurate.

I am not a knifemaker, although I want to be... and I'm trying. I have spoken to people in the recent past that shattered everything I thought I knew about steel. These are people that DO know how things work in the realm of metal and knifemaking.

They are facing an uphill battle, and I think we as a knifemaking community need to help them.

Steel reacts in predictable ways. Metallurgists are aware of these reactions. Most of us, however, are not metallurgists. Things we may have learned through reading, or trial and error, might be misunderstood.
I have gone as far as begging, threatening, and otherwise berating one of these poor people (that understand these things) into writing a book (he immediately told me I'm expressly forbidden to speak to his wife about this, as he's tired of hearing it from her, and she doesn't need any help!). In a sense, he's right to refuse my request... even though the request was made from greediness for information on a personal level, it was also to increase the availability of the truth to others.

What I'm getting at here (in a painfully long runaround), is that we need to put an end to the voodoo in our industry. I just received the latest copy of Blade magazine and almost puked... because one article in it was something I believed COMPLETELY not a month ago... and now recognize as a quest for answers without a quest involving science... merely conjecture and faulty logic.

WHAT CAN WE AS A COMMUNITY DO ABOUT THIS?

Will this forever be a taboo subject that will simply be skirted due to the high sensitivity of some?

Mods, feel free to '86' this if you're worried that it's just stirring the pot. It's not my intention to yell 'fire' in the theater... but I think it is what I'm doing!
 
The problem I feel is the belief in the "voodoo". As long as we do not educate ourselves the voodoo will be there. Unfortunately metalurgy is a very dry and confusing subject. The average knife enthusiast is not going to spend the time required to understand the subject. I constantly research to find out how to better my craft. I can only attest to the abilities that I have observed in the steel I use. I agree that a maker should be comfortable with the material they use and not try a new steel each month or chase the theoretical magical steel. If the material used works well and the design, fit and finish are to the satisfaction of the customer then that is what we as makers strive for. I will cintinue to study and try to improve my craft. Cutting through the fog of understanding is all our responsibility.

Chuck
 
MrPurple said:
I have spoken to people in the recent past that shattered everything I thought I knew about steel. These are people that DO know how things work in the realm of metal and knifemaking.

I just received the latest copy of Blade magazine and almost puked... because one article in it was something I believed COMPLETELY not a month ago... and now recognize as a quest for answers without a quest involving science... merely conjecture and faulty logic.
Click to expand...

It would be helpful to have a few specifics. Which voodoo are you referring to?
 
But people like voodoo.
Voodoo appeals even to the most pure-science directed minds.
Voodoo explanes the things that are unknown and at the same time, offers a person a way to effect changes in such areas where they have limited understandings.

Also, voodoo is less complected, or else it is complected in ways that are vastly more easy for the human psyche to deal with.

Voodoo and steel are very interconnected.
Blacksmithing and Bladesmithing appeals to the modern mind from a rich history of darken rooms filled with smoke and strange sounds.
The bladesmith's forge is not just a place when he works, it's a place of imagination,
a place of secrets,
a place of whispered prayers mixed with profanities.

My wife works at a hospital among some of the most highly trained minds in the comunity.
Just the other day in the elevator she was riding in she struck up a conversation with a surgery doctor who was talking about his new field of interest.

I'm not sure the name he had for what he was talking about, but it dealt with studying a persons life and "wholeness" by feeling the bumps on their head. He claimed for the people that he "helps" he is able to even heal many diseases just by massaging their scalps...

Here is a person, very smart doctor, who is among the most highly trained and paid people in my town, yet he is talking about feeling people's heads to heal sickness?..........Ah the attraction of Voodoo .......
 
Hey, Mr. Caswell... I was specifically avoiding mentioning the specifics until a proper 'testing of the waters' here was done... I'd prefer not to make myself a pariah until after I know I'm the only one. Sorry if I'm being difficult, but I don't think it will take too much research to find the source of my discomfort (aside from my head being buried in my butt, mind you:D !).

Alan, I couldn't agree more... however, what I'm talking about HAS been refuted in science, rather than referring to something that explains the unexplainable. I agree that the reason for voodoo is to intrigue the human mind, but we just can't let it stop at that. I completely understand the need for romance in human endeavors, but I for one need to know where reality starts and the Twilight Zone stops... I know you aren't refuting this, but I figured I'd expound on it while I had the chance.

Phrenology is something I thought to be long dead (head bump study), but I guess everything old is new again. WOW! YIKES!

...what hospital is this guy working out of again?:eek: :D
 
Mat
you can make this so complicated that you'll freak yourself out or you can take it in strides..
separate your steels in to two piles
High carbon
and
High carbon stainless steel.
start by knowing the two major types of H/T's for each type steel

SS is air quenched (mainly)
HC is Oil or water quenched ( mainly)

work your two types of steel into categories
say the 10XX's steel ( simple carbon steels)
and say 01, alloyed steels. so on

just write down the H/T method for each steel you are using..
if you try to take in to much at a time in the dry end of why it works, the terminology and what have you can drive yourself nuts..

I liken it to playing a guitar, I learned by ear then later in life looked at the books to see what I was playing for notes..

if you keep your heats where they need to be, quench in the proper prepared mediums in the times required (from oven to quench)
and temper at the required temperatures and times needed you'll be in the ball park.. then and when you feel comfortable with what you're doing you can start playing with fine tuning your procedures, it will come to you like riding a bike..

if you need help with this stuff e-mail me any time..just don't ask me to explain works that are over 6 letters long :D
look up Kevin Cashen
threads and you'll find all you need to know about the why it happens..he has the gift of the layman way of words..
Mete Robert has some to say on it here too http://www.knivesby.com/robert-cella-1.html
more found here :) http://www.knivesby.com/knifemaking.html

I hope this helps in what your are asking? or did I miss the point? :o :)
edited
in rereading your post I fear I did miss understand your plight :) but my post should help the newbys :)
 
It's nice to see someone who isn't afraid to question the status quo. Like you, I, not long ago, believed "that way". I'm embarrassed to admit it, but at one time I actually felt guilty for using drawing dies on my power hammer. :o
(You know, the more hammering, the better the knife :rolleyes: )

To tell you the truth, I'm not sure we can turn the situation around. The masses will always find the "other way" more interesting than the by-the-book way.
Just make knives the way you think best, and try to educate others, in a nice way. Nobody's going to listen to someone who's belligerent and derisive.
And remember, they're ONLY KNIVES! This world is FULL of problems. I'm not about to dedicate my life to stamping out a heat treating method I don't agree with...
But, Mrpurple, I agree with your post completely. :)

Alan, no offense, but I think you're wrong. Voodoo and steel are NOT interconnected. I happen to believe in God, but I don't ask Him to help my knives turn out. I instead rely on the principles of heat treating that I believe He built into the material when He created this universe. Since leaving the triple quenching behind, and doing things this way, I have much more confidence in my knives.
Also, voodoo is NOT less complicated. Complexity is built right into the name: "triple quenching" You have to do everything multiple times!

Anyway, I don't care what you decide to believe. It's a free country. :) (well, it's supposed to be...)
For what it's worth, I don't think my knives are superior to the triple quenched blades. I just think they are trying to pound a square peg through a round hole.
Triple quenching just wasn't working for me. If it works for you, great.
:D
 
Phillip Patton said:
It's nice to see someone who isn't afraid to question the status quo. Like you, I, not long ago, believed "that way". I'm embarrassed to admit it, but at one time I actually felt guilty for using drawing dies on my power hammer. :o
(You know, the more hammering, the better the knife :rolleyes: )

To tell you the truth, I'm not sure we can turn the situation around. The masses will always find the "other way" more interesting than the by-the-book way.
Just make knives the way you think best, and try to educate others, in a nice way. Nobody's going to listen to someone who's belligerent and derisive.
And remember, they're ONLY KNIVES! This world is FULL of problems. I'm not about to dedicate my life to stamping out a heat treating method I don't agree with...
But, Mrpurple, I agree with your post completely. :)

Alan, no offense, but I think you're wrong. Voodoo and steel are NOT interconnected. I happen to believe in God, but I don't ask Him to help my knives turn out. I instead rely on the principles of heat treating that I believe He built into the material when He created this universe. Since leaving the triple quenching behind, and doing things this way, I have much more confidence in my knives.
Also, voodoo is NOT less complicated. Complexity is built right into the name: "triple quenching" You have to do everything multiple times!

Anyway, I don't care what you decide to believe. It's a free country. :) (well, it's supposed to be...)
For what it's worth, I don't think my knives are superior to the triple quenched blades. I just think they are trying to pound a square peg through a round hole.
Triple quenching just wasn't working for me. If it works for you, great.
:D
Click to expand...

:) ha the Triple quench
I look at it this way
if you Triple quench and get it right on the first two and mess up on the third
do you have a better knife? then if you
do it right on the first and stop there
is it now a better knife then the Triple quenched blade man this should
start a popcorn wielding can of worms.:)
 
I study the way of the japanese sword.
I read a lot of things about the ways men have forged the katana.
Phillip Patton what Im talking about is connection that happens within the human mind when we try something and it works or does not work.

Right away we seek means to understand what has happend?,,,what is to blame or gets the credit?

A smith heats a blade in his forge and says the prayer taught to him by his teachers. The prayer is one where at different points during the prayer you take the blade out of the fire, hold it above the water tank, and then as you say the next part of the prayer you dunk the sword...

If the sword comes out of the quench with a greatness to it, you can see how the smith would credit not only the fire and water, but also his prayers.

The same is true for whatever we tend to do in lots of things.

Pass a hard test with a lucky pen.
Hit a ball with a lucky beer cap in your pocket.
Get a date with a cute girl with the help of a lucky chair you sat on in the bar or perhaps that one song you asked the band to play?

Voodoo is a easy way to try to get control of so much that are always so hard to control.

Voodoo within the world of the bladesmithy is always sneaking around in the background, ready to offer suggestions and answers whenever we look down at a cracked blade, or a great blade...
 
Dan Gray said:
:) ha the Triple quench
I look at it this way
if you Triple quench and get it right on the first two and mess up on the third
do you have a better knife? then if you
do it right on the first and stop there
is it now a better knife then the Triple quenched blade man this should
start a popcorn wielding can of worms.:)
Click to expand...

I assumed triple quenching is what he was referring to in the opening post. I hope I didn't misunderstand. :D

You're right about the can of worms. :D Exactly what I meant about soaking being simpler. Of course, soaking requires more complex equipment, but if someones serious about making knives, that shouldn't be much of an obstacle.
 
Alan Molstad said:
The bladesmith's forge is not just a place when he works, it's a place of imagination,
a place of secrets,
a place of whispered prayers mixed with profanities.
Click to expand...

Well, I don't know about 'a place of secrets' but if you're forge isn't a place of whispered prayers mixed with profanities, you aren't doing the more difficult pattern welding.
 
I'll bet more than not
after the water quench and the blade goes ping, the maker now wished he did a littler prayer before he did so :) , it just goes to show what we will reach for if it seemed to work for us..
I'll bet it was the timing it took to say the prayer that worked for the Master more then the prayer itself , just guessing though ;) :D
 
Mr. Purple,

So far I've got that the voodoo you're talking about may have to do with triple-quenching and/or not using drawing dies for some reason.

I'm not trying to be obtuse, there's just so much you could be referring to it's hard to know what to make of the post without specifics.

Keep in mind that true voodoo practitioners will say that everything that DISAGREES with their view(s) IS the real voodoo.

You've already gone this far, make a stand!
 
JCaswell said:
Mr. Purple,

So far I've got that the voodoo you're talking about may have to do with triple-quenching and/or not using drawing dies for some reason.

I'm not trying to be obtuse, there's just so much you could be referring to it's hard to know what to make of the post without specifics.

Keep in mind that true voodoo practitioners will say that everything that DISAGREES with their view(s) IS the real voodoo.

You've already gone this far, make a stand!
Click to expand...

I'm the one who mentioned triple quenching and using drawing dies...
I can expound on the drawing die thing if you want.
I agree that the first post was a little vague, but I can't blame him; this is a touchy subject. And I thought it was fairly obvious what he was referring to. :D
 
JCaswell said:
Well, I don't know about 'a place of secrets' .
Click to expand...
It is a place of secrets because , it's dark.
It has a place in history as a very secret place, whole nations lived and died due to the secret skills of the men at the forge.

Today, at a BLADE show, there is always the question; "How did you do that?" that is asked of bladesmiths. The reason it is asked is that each generation brings new ideas, and fresh minds to the mix.

Some knives I have seen are so different than anything I know how to do, or understand how they could have been done, that there is a "hidden-ness" to their creation...a darker, secret to them...

The weird part of Voodoo Bladesmithing is that from time to time, it works!...or atleast seems to work.

every once in a while, a blade you can make with your own hands, is way better than all the blades you made before it.
WHY?
You will look at the blade, and seek answers so that you can make more of such great blades. The problem, the "hidden-ness" of such a blade is found in the not knowing.

was it the way you did something?
Was it the temp of the forge?
Was it the number of times you did something?
Was it the amount of time at this or that stage?

Was it the fire?
Was it the water?
Was it my inner thoughts, was it my prayer, the clothes I wear?. the direction I stood...was it me?

Voodoo gives you the answers...
Voodoo gives you something to build other ideas on.
Voodoo is a framework, and you can use it to start a pathway in your work as a bladesmith.

Voodoo is best not seen as "Anti-Science"....for voodoo likes to walk with science, always offering easy ways to understand the things science is saying.
 
Alan Molstad said:
I study the way of the japanese sword.
I read a lot of things about the ways men have forged the katana.
Phillip Patton what Im talking about is connection that happens within the human mind when we try something and it works or does not work.

Right away we seek means to understand what has happend?,,,what is to blame or gets the credit?

A smith heats a blade in his forge and says the prayer taught to him by his teachers. The prayer is one where at different points during the prayer you take the blade out of the fire, hold it above the water tank, and then as you say the next part of the prayer you dunk the sword...

If the sword comes out of the quench with a greatness to it, you can see how the smith would credit not only the fire and water, but also his prayers.

The same is true for whatever we tend to do in lots of things.

Pass a hard test with a lucky pen.
Hit a ball with a lucky beer cap in your pocket.
Get a date with a cute girl with the help of a lucky chair you sat on in the bar or perhaps that one song you asked the band to play?

Voodoo is a easy way to try to get control of so much that are always so hard to control.

Voodoo within the world of the bladesmithy is always sneaking around in the background, ready to offer suggestions and answers whenever we look down at a cracked blade, or a great blade...
Click to expand...

I guess I'm not sure what your point is here. I agree that voodoo tends to appeal more to the publics interest, but that doesn't mean it works best.

I read "The Craft of The Japanese Sword, by [SIZE=-1]Yoshido Yoshihara, and I don't remember him mentioning prayers and incantations. In fact the whole book was very scientifically based, yet it seems to work for him.

As for this

"[/SIZE]Pass a hard test with a lucky pen.
Hit a ball with a lucky beer cap in your pocket.
Get a date with a cute girl with the help of a lucky chair you sat on in the bar or perhaps that one song you asked the band to play?"

I can't comment, since that's not how I live my life. :)
 
Phillip Patton said:
I read "The Craft of The Japanese Sword, by [SIZE=-1]Yoshido Yoshihara, and I don't remember him mentioning prayers and incantations. In fact the whole book was very scientifically based, yet it seems to work for him.
Click to expand...

Yes that is a good book.
The religious part you point to is found on page 22.
 
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