Frustrated...

The reason I'd like specifics regarding which voodoo we're talking about is that, for example, one time had a run in with an ABS Master Smith (actually he sort of ran into me) about whether or not you can forge weld with natural gas.

He was giving a demo and made some mention that you couldn't when someone that I had talked to earlier said, "Well he says he does it!" pointing to me. The Master Smith took this as an invitation to attack the very notion of welding with natural gas, which made me out to be some kind of pretender. So here are 50 or so guys looking at me like I'm some kind of ignorant insect and the Master is the one blowing smoke.

Yes, there's a lot of misinformation. I've found that misinformation is usually trying to 'correct' the truth. So to say there's a lot of voodoo going on without giving specifics is not a bold a statement at all. Everyone will agree, even the greatest steel-shucking witchdoctor out there.

Let's talk specifics and let the chips fall where they may.
 
JCaswell said:
whether or not you can forge weld with natural gas.

.
Click to expand...
There are a lot of things that people can't do...until someone thinks of a way to do them.

People say that as of right now, no one can forge weld a blade useing Stainless steel, copper, and plastic.

But one day?
 
The point was that I did/still do forge weld using natural gas. It was not an issue of thoery. The idea that natural gas can not fuel an appliance to welding temperatures is ignorance of common industrial practice.
 
I think it would be fun to expose the voodoo (or eleged voodoo, in some cases), and see what develops.

Here's a question:

What is some of the most outrageous knife-related voodoo out there?
 
"It is a place of secrets because , it's dark.
It has a place in history as a very secret place, whole nations lived and died due to the secret skills of the men at the forge."


Nations lived and died due to the skills, not the secrets. What might things have been like if the smiths had openly shared their processes with other smiths? They could have taken their skills much further than they did. Look at the work that many knifemakers are doing today. There's some awesome stuff out there, and I think it's largely due to the fact that information is so easily shared all over the world now. And the fact that paople are willing to share.


"Today, at a BLADE show, there is always the question; "How did you do that?" that is asked of bladesmiths. The reason it is asked is that each generation brings new ideas, and fresh minds to the mix."


Yes, and I'll bet most of those bladesmiths are happy to answer the question. If they didn't, progress would slow way down.


"every once in a while, a blade you can make with your own hands, is way better than all the blades you made before it.
WHY?"


Because I'm learning, and trying to make each blade better than the last. :)


"You will look at the blade, and seek answers so that you can make more of such great blades. The problem, the "hidden-ness" of such a blade is found in the not knowing."


But I DO know what I want to improve on my knives.


"was it the way you did something?
Was it the temp of the forge?
Was it the number of times you did something?
Was it the amount of time at this or that stage?

Was it the fire?
Was it the water?
Was it my inner thoughts, was it my prayer, the clothes I wear?. the direction I stood...was it me?

Voodoo gives you the answers...
Voodoo gives you something to build other ideas on.
Voodoo is a framework, and you can use it to start a pathway in your work as a bladesmith.

Voodoo is best not seen as "Anti-Science"....for voodoo likes to walk with science, always offering easy ways to understand the things science is saying."


Voodoo gives me the answers?? I don't think so... Education, scientific analysis and logical conclusions are what helps me know how to better my knives.
 
JCaswell said:
The point was that I did/still do forge weld using natural gas. It was not an issue of thoery. The idea that natural gas can not fuel an appliance to welding temperatures is ignorance of common industrial practice.
Click to expand...

I can't see why you couldn't use natural gas. ???
Which MS was it? Be specific. LOL :D
 

edge packing :D

J I'd like to know who has the closed mind..but not here,, you'd be putting yourself in his platform shoes..:)
that is just the mentality I've been talking about for years just because I haven't seen something done don't mean it can't be done,,,

If you add pure O2 to just about anything that will burn I dare say you'll get just about all the heat you'll ever want to forge weld.
just this statement alone proves him wrong..:D let alone others are doing it as you are if he's blind to it he needs to know, it's a good service you know..expand another's mind for them..:p

It's like one guy saying that O1 is the best steel to use as a Blade. obviously they haven't tried 154CM yet :D

all kidding a side , we all need to keep our minds open to new and the untried . it's the very reason we are were we are now in the industrial times.
it's the ones that dare try the new and unproven..I believe in God too..
and the good book also goes to say he will help those who,,,, rrr I better stop..
 
Wow, Mr. Purple you are walking the edge on this one. I have been combating dark age concepts with the light of factual reason in our business for many years and I have learned what is productive and what is not. May I suggest that you not get lured into naming specific names because it will instantly turn this thread with potential for good into a nasty mud fest between the followers and sycophants of one name and another. THIS IS ONE OF THE MAJOR PROBLEMS, Voodoo only works if there is unquestioning belief in the witch doctors.

People don’t get famous in this world anymore through reasonable ordinary positions. Controversy is what puts you in the television and the front page. The celebrities that we have to hear of ad nauseum are the ones that are the most outrageous, obnoxious and full of $*&#! This concept also applies in the knifemaking PR business, and because of it we have an odd inverted sort of credibility thing going on. It seems the more ink a guy gets the less reliable his information is, and since he is “famous” more people swallow the swill without questioning it. We need to be willing to question and verify anything, to filter the garbage out. This applies to magazines, metallurgy books (I always try to find three books that concur before going with a theory) and even individuals like Kevin Cashen. On this forum Philip Patton won my respect by needing to confirm my positions enough to do his own experimentation and prove it to be so. On another forum one of the toughest debaters to beat says he acquired much of his metallurgical knowledge after he set out to prove Kevin Cashen wrong! I could not express how much this meant to me when he shared that. You see, I am not offended or challenged by people verifying my data, I am strengthened, and reinforced by it! And I am confident enough in my data that if you research it yourself you will join me in short order.

The most recent issues of “Blade” to which you refer got a great belly laugh out of me before I even opened it, I am psychic! Almost a two years ago I wrote my Anatomy of Hype article in which I spend some time on what I call the “Steel of the Month Club” and how the magazines inflame the problem with cheesy headlines on the newest fad steel. In the article I wrote –
“The magazines love the steel of the month club because it makes fantastic headlines that sell issues even faster than the steel itself. Headlines like “CPM x54y! The new super alloy?” .

It is almost creepy to read on the cover of the December “Blade” magazine-
”CPM M4: Newest Super Steel?” :rolleyes:

It would be funnier if it wasn’t so sad. I really enjoy my satirical articles, because they make it so easy!:D
 
JCaswell said:
Here's a question:

What is some of the most outrageous knife-related voodoo out there?
Click to expand...

There are knife making questions we can ask, that have no answer found in the world of science.
questions that the moment you even attempt to give an answer you dive into the other worlds of personal viewpoints and dark angels of human nature.

Voodoo lives here, and gives birth to her children that so fill the soot-filled halls of many a bladesmith's mind.

What is better, a hand-forged blade or a production knife?
What's the best steel for a knife?
Whats the best handle material.
Whats the best way to forge a knife?
Whats the best gas to use in a forge?
Whats the worst gas to use in a forge?
What could be the best knife you have even seen?

The questions go on....and although science would love to provide us with some answers, the reality is that Voodoo is a jump ahead of science at every turn.
 
BTW, M4 is not new; it's been around since the 1930's. :D
I knew you would love that issue of Blade, Kevin. :D
 
I need to be careful no to get on too much of a roll as this topic can consume me if I am not careful. I decided to start another post for a slightly different focus instead of making a huge single post that meanders too much. But one thing that always burns my bacon is to have a witchdoctor try to tell us how we must beware of science because it may lead us astray. Astray from what? Let’s see what is the opposite of logic, reason and the scientific method? Hmmm- perhaps superstition, dogma, and blind uniformed following? If one is worried about being led astray, data, reason and logic are the antidote not the threat. But they are very threatening to folks who wish followers to believe whatever their line is, without having to put up with problematic questions and dangerous requests for supporting data.

One of my hero’s used to be James Randi (until, in my opinion, he became what he once opposed in his anti-religious fervor). The Amazing Randi used to do all kinds of great things to expose real witchdoctors, and how they can hoodwink people with parlor tricks- he even exposed how easy it was to hoodwink scientists if they had a predisposition to “believe”. Some folks may remember this, years ago there was a guy who made it on a few prime time TV shows with his telekinetic abilities. He could move pencils on a table, turn pages in a phone book etc… simply by concentrating on them. Most, readily believed it was genuine because the parlor tricks were such a damned good show that you wanted to believe. A few needed more however, and asked if he could do it with measures in place to prevent him from simply blowing on the objects. One show had a person hold their hand between him and the object, another put the objects under a fish tank, but he was still able to do it! Amazing! This guy was either the most extraordinary human being that had yet walked the earth or he had developed his parlor tricks to a very high degree. For most it was easier to go with the former… sad isn’t it?

But then James Randi got involved, Mr. Randi then, and still does, offers a huge cash prize to anybody who can beat his tests an prove they have true paranormal abilities (of course the prize has yet to be claimed). He challenged the telekinetic guy to move things under conditions that Mr. Randi controlled, not him. Unlike most charlatans this fellow had the guts, or the ego, to give it a try. He thought he could fool anybody, since he had been so successful at it for so long. I remember watching on national TV this guy walk up with confidence to phone book just setting on a stand with no tanks or barriers. But Randi new his parlor tricks and how such things could be defeated. The huckster’s confidence melted as soon as Randi opened a container of small foam pieces and spread them around the book. The slightest breeze would scatter foam everywhere! Suddenly all this guys powers abandoned him! He put on a good show for some time but nothing would move when scientific methods eliminated just one variable that his side show depended on.

Although he came up with a plethora of excuses why it wouldn’t work that day, the same gentleman was finally caught blowing on objects later and admitted he had been quietly puffing at things for years just for the attention.

Why do I share this with you folks? Because I immediately think of it every time I see any blowhard with parlor tricks feel at all threatened by scientific methods. ;)
 
Phillip Patton said:
I can't see why you couldn't use natural gas. ???
Which MS was it? Be specific. LOL :D
Click to expand...

The idea was that natural gas 'wasn't hot enough.' Only propane achieve the 'extreme temperatures' yada, yada. But like Dan suggest, put a blower on it and get enought gas volume (I use a 1-inch line from the main) and welding temperature with natural gas is no problem even at residential pressures.

Which smith, indeed! I don't think there's a need to go after indivuduals on purpose. If we expose the myths and they want to persist with them, then they embarrass themselves.

Again, what is your 'favorite' myth??
 
dlpierson said:
Have you read this?
Metallurgy of Steel for Bladesmiths & Others
who Heat Treat and Forge Steel by John D. Verhoeven.

I learned a lot from it and those in the know seem to think well of it. I think I need to read it several more times for it to all sink in.
Click to expand...

I haven't made it very far through this yet, but so far it seems to be a very wel written paper. I'm certain I'll have to read it MANY times to get it all to sink in, but I find that any topic requires a certain level of repetition before epiphany occurs.

Thanks a million for posting this link!

-d
 
This is a great thread!
My outlook as a collector/hobby maker,on knife makers is tha they are with a few exeptions (none that i know of but i'm sure they are out there) the most generous people/craftsmen around.The amount of inf on this forum is proof of that.You would think with the time makers in general have invested in their craft there would be alot of secrets.Kevin your articles are amazing,all that research then all the time to write it out for all to read is purely generous.

I half expect more hype/voodoo/mystique from custom makers but i still find no BS.Honestly wouldnt it be great to purchase an incredible bowie from an esteemed maker to find out that you are the proud owner of a one of a kind blade that was quenched in a live bears belly while the full moon shone :D
 
I used to find this a favorite topic and seem drawn like a moth to flame. But, I resolved to not get involved in any serious manner any more, as it is an unending, "unendable" dabate. So, while everyone seems to be taking a break after Act I of this drama (or is it comedy?), I thought I would make a feeble attempt at camp with a comic soliloquy from out by the popcorn machine in the lobby:

Best Tommy Chong stoner voice:

"pssst...psssst..Hey, man, I got some new 1084. But it's not just regular 1084, man, this stuff is special. It's from a one-time special melt, man! They used ...come here, man, gotta keep this quiet.......<sotto voce> goat feces,<normal voice> man, for the carbon source. Yeah, man, it's way cool stuff. The guy said it came from a small Romanian mill that used this goat crap from goats with two short legs from grazing on this one steep mountainside with special grass. No other goats like that anywhere, man, so this stuff is special.

The guy said it was a special batch made in a secret mill for a company to make Special Forces tactical swords that'll cut a Bradley in half, man!!! He was only able to get two small bars smuggled out by a friend in the CIA, but he sold me enough for two hunters for only $79.

The first one didn't do too well, so I must've done something wrong, man! Heck, I held my mouth right, turned towards the forge in different directions each time, just everything right, man. I HT'd it facing north under a full moon standing on one leg with a chicken foot up my butt and everything, man. Do you know how hard it is to find piss from a redhaired virgin, man? Man, did that cost me a bundle. I let the blade sit in the pee for the two weeks just like it's supposed to. Man, I just gotta get a respirator one of these days.

When I finally got it out of the quench and quit puking from the smell, I checked it with my special file. Man, I must've stood on the wrong foot or something, cuz it was pretty soft. I got something right, though, cuz it bent back and forth 14 times!! I was happy about that part, man.

I sure hope I can get it right on this other half of the steel, man....."

:D
 
fitzo said:
I sure hope I can get it right on this other half of the steel, man....."

:D
Click to expand...


This discussion of discomfort could not have been better summed up by me if I tried, Mike!

As Kevin pointed out, I will continue to avoid specifics -- as well as specific names. The details are really not what's important -- it's the belief structure that is bothering me. Mike's last post touches on EVERYTHING that set me off last night, and should be enough to indicate what I'm thinking about.

There is always going to be a 'belief vs fact' differential. We all know that. But to forgo scientific approach entirely because our current understanding capability can't quantify our 'discoveries' is ridiculous, especially when our 'discovery' IS quantifiable scientifically, just not by us! If I surround myself with like-minded people, none of us learn anything. We merely agree on whatever our best hypothesis is on the given topic. However, if we open the floor to discussion (yes, maybe even heated argument), and peer evaluation, sometimes FACTS can be had in the frenzy.

So here I am in the middle of the poopstorm. Waiting for the facts, baby!
 
MrPurple said:
........
There is always going to be a 'belief vs fact' differential. We all know that. But to forgo scientific approach entirely because our current understanding capability can't quantify our 'discoveries' is ridiculous, especially when our 'discovery' IS quantifiable scientifically, just not by us! If I surround myself with like-minded people, none of us learn anything. We merely agree on whatever our best hypothesis is on the given topic. However, if we open the floor to discussion (yes, maybe even heated argument), and peer evaluation, sometimes FACTS can be had in the frenzy.
.....
Click to expand...


That bit of reasoning is stated with as much clarity as I have ever seen it written, Matt. Kudos to you. :thumbup:
 
Thanks for Mr. Fitzo... it's nice to see you peek out of the darkness. Oh wait, I think maybe you peeked INTO the darkness!!! ;) :D

Mr. Purple... I read it too... I don't know if I almost puked, but I did shake my head quite a bit. Just stating lots of theories that one feels they have proven is one thing, but to make a big brouhaha about how science will destroy a craft is very silly to me.

I actually think that Kevin guy can get kind of verbose with "his 50 cent words!" :p :D But I enjoy his posts and read them as very educated advise. I do not take it as gospel, just as I would LOVE for people not to take smith XYZ's theories as unfaltering, irrefutable fact. I THINK, one should absorb all that advise, and then try to prove it or disprove it in their own shop using ACCURATE, CONSISTENT, and REPEATABLE methods.

I think nearly everyone is going to start off filing into a bar of mild steel, old file, bumper, etc.. wanting to make a knife. Some will quit, some will hop on one foot and heat treat with the devil under the pale moon light, and some will just keep learning and experimenting using scientific theory and application, trying to create a blade that can be made time and time again without any hocus pocus.

For the guy (who only uses science when it's convenient for him so that it backs up his preaching) to say that the fella trying to learn scientific theory and then apply it to his craft is going about it incorrectly, seems quite arrogant to me.
 
hey Mike good to see you:thumbup:
I think this one is going pretty good..open minded :)

Kevin
I think with-in the masses , many guys like to hang around the rich guy
(maybe some of the money will rub off them type deal or look more important:rolleyes: ..)
, If he lets them and why not let them, it's what makes the rich guy popular and in a lot of cases it makes him more money :) but don't go against him :o :)
 
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