Frustrated...

[JCaswell]

....if we open the floor to discussion (yes, maybe even heated argument), and peer evaluation, sometimes FACTS can be had in the frenzy.

So here I am in the middle of the poopstorm. Waiting for the facts, baby!

OK, I guess I need to get the latest issue of Blade to know what's going on here (though I've surmised it has something to do with a guy saying science is bad or something). I don't care to hear names, just the bogus claims.

How can you 'open the floor to discussion, heated argument, peer evaluation and facts' if noone is going to even identify the specific ideas in question?

Purple, I mean you no harm. I would like to respectfully suggest that you aren't in the middle of a poopstorm. So far this thread has been a love fest. It is true that it will remain that way if we carefully avoid even identifying the questionable doctrines, but that is no way to get to the facts for which you wait.

 

[JCaswell]

I guess what I'd like to see is something like this:

"This guy (maybe a little background on his qualifications here) says X,Y, and Z. I disagree because of A,B,and C."

Or maybe:

"Here is a piece of widely believed bladesmithing voodoo: (give example here). I believe it's voodoo because it conflicts with verifiable data (give example here)."


I've heard a lot of strange stuff over the years, but most is just minor league: strange little formulas and folksy techniques that may have worked on a particular alloy(s), but to some have become "fact" for all metals ---stuff like that.
I know there are better examples of true hooey, but everyone seems too shy to bring 'em out so we can look at the little critters in the light and maybe jab 'em with a stick a little.

 

[fitzo]

....... May I suggest that you not get lured into naming specific names because it will instantly turn this thread with potential for good into a nasty mud fest between the followers and sycophants of one name and another. .......

Mr. Caswell, with all due respect, I would have to agree with Kevin that it is best not to get specific in this thread. If I read Mr. Purple correctly, it is more a plea for the guiding principles to be based in reason not inconsistent with known science. This allows progress and new developments to be reviewed in critical methodology accepted in disciplines as diverse as science and theology and logic. The article in question was no more than an example of the need for that approach.

I would recommend that this thread be kept more philosophical, and that future threads be started topically uncolored by what has been said here. This place has recently lacked sufficient good technical discussion compared to what it was a couple years back. It would be a refreshing return, IMHO. That which we do see is always enjoyable, and there are definitely people around who know their stuff both technically and experientially.

That will keep Mr Purple from becoming victimized by any horde of people more bent on retribution than rationality. He has done enough raising the concepts for consideration. I've both seen the poopstorm and been in the middle, and he doesn't need that.

Just my 2cents. Now I'll shut up.

PS, I agree about getting a Blade. I let my subscription expire having grown weary of that very BS. Heck, I might get one, too. Sounds juicy...

 

[JCaswell]

My impression is that Kevin is talking about staying away from naming (targeting) people for refutation. I agree.

But you can't have a good technical discussion if we're only going to discuss overarching philosophies. It's an interesting, but short discussion. If we're sure that they're full of hooey, we should be prepared to face them with the facts.

Heck, I mentioned the thing about the natural gas forge without naming names. I'm sure there are folks that would disagree with me as did that MS, but I KNOW I'm right on that score because I DO it all the time. What is it to me if they flame me on that?

(P.S. Please don't 'shut up'. Your 2 cents and my 2 cents makes 4 cents. It's not much, but I like the rate of return.)

 

[fitzo]

If my own past observations offer any basis for prediction, I have this overwhelming feeling that a good read of Blade will point directly to that which inspired his original post. Mentioning the specific topic will be the same as screaming the name. I can promise you from experience, it WILL draw flame. The word play is often sly and slippery, and prone to playing both sides of the fence.

Read the mag. Start the thread asking "Why?". It may be fun. It may not.

Now we're up to 6cents. Somebody will want taxes if we keep this up....

You know, yer making it so I'm going to have to make one of my infrequent trips out of my cave and drive 20 miles tomorrow to pick up one of these damnable Blades..... Just to get pissed off again when I finally cooled down....LOL

 

[JCaswell]

I agree, it will probably be obvious when reading the magazine, but haven't we as good as named names in this thread already?

Why speak in hushed tones and code if anyone that can read the latest issue of blade will know what/who we're talking about?

The whole exercise seem silly to me.

Besides, the issue of bladesmith voodoo is bigger than anything that can be carried in one issue of Blade. I'd like to know more about the general wackiness that's out there. That could be a fun thread!

(8 cents back at ya!)

 

[adammichael]

could you at least mention WHICH issue of Blade?

 

[JCaswell]

I presume it's the "latest" judging by the fact that folks are saying they are just receiving it.

What's "frustrating" is all the cryptic vagueness.

 

[Alan Molstad]

Remember, part of Voodoo's charm, and attraction is that every once in a while, the Voodoo works.

Every once in a while, standing on one leg while quenching a blade produces a blade that cant be easily explained .

Every once in a while, a prayer said while dipping hot steel into water brings forth a superior hamon line.

Every once in a while a hand forged blade wins the competition over the stock removal blade.
But with this, is also the darker side,
Neglect to stand on one leg during a quench because you believe "Thats crazy talk" yet end up with a cracked blade and you cant help but ask yourself, "What if I had?"

Many people place their fresh blades in the home kitchen refrigerator freezer.
When asked "WHY?" you have two possible answers....

Answer one is clouded in scientific jargon, yet unspecific, unhelpful.

The other answer is based in Voodoo,
This answer is easily understood even by a child. The terms used in this answer are all easy to remember, easy to spell and pronounce.

Guess which one fills the mind of a bladesmith as he places his fleshly tempered blade next to the forzen peas ?

 

[fitzo]

I agree, it will probably be obvious when reading the magazine, but haven't we as good as named names in this thread already?

Why speak in hushed tones and code if anyone that can read the latest issue of blade will know what/who we're talking about?

The whole exercise seem silly to me.

Besides, the issue of bladesmith voodoo is bigger than anything that can be carried in one issue of Blade. I'd like to know more about the general wackiness that's out there. That could be a fun thread!

(8 cents back at ya!)

Deniability is why, Mr. Caswell. It seems like you'd be about as good a politician as me. LOL

You see, this way, when someone gets pissed, one can always say, "Oh, my, did you feel offended by that? Why would you think I meant you?"

Start the thread, sir, and see who is willing! You and I alone wouldn't make much of a sock hop.

 

[fitzo]

Mr Molstad, I spent 31 years of my working life in laboratories practicing the principles of science. They are founded on reason and reproducibility. I find the consistency of technical language concise and clear once it is learned; the common vocabulary eliminates the maunderings of alchemy. But, yes, one must spend the time and focus necessary to learn the concepts and vocabulary. It is a continuing process. Everything you say here is diametrically opposed to how I approach things. I want to know how the blade will perform EVERY time, not look for the inexplicable outliers and then stand there scratching my nuts wondering why it didn't work next time. If it goes bad, I can troubleshoot the "why" within a known system, and plan experiments for improvement. Hopping on the opposite leg next time is not experimentation.

It is exactly that type of poetic mysticism that drives me away from these conversations. Your way isn't any more right nor wrong then mine, but it is not my way. It sort of proves the point of this thread.

Good night, everyone. Take care.

Remember, part of Voodoo's charm, and attraction is that every once in a while, the Voodoo works.

Every once in a while, standing on one leg while quenching a blade produces a blade that cant be easily explained .

Every once in a while, a prayer said while dipping hot steel into water brings forth a superior hamon line.

Every once in a while a hand forged blade wins the competition over the stock removal blade.
But with this, is also the darker side,
Neglect to stand on one leg during a quench because you believe "Thats crazy talk" yet end up with a cracked blade and you cant help but ask yourself, "What if I had?"

Many people place their fresh blades in the home kitchen refrigerator freezer.
When asked "WHY?" you have two possible answers....

Answer one is clouded in scientific jargon, yet unspecific, unhelpful.

The other answer is based in Voodoo,
This answer is easily understood even by a child. The terms used in this answer are all easy to remember, easy to spell and pronounce.

Guess which one fills the mind of a bladesmith as he places his fleshly tempered blade next to the forzen peas ?

 

[JCaswell]

Start which thread? A thread to reveal some bladesmithing voodoo?

I thought that's what this one was.

What worries me is that, while many give lip service to the greatness of the scientific method and the vices of voodoo, many would be too timid to join the discussion in a meaningful way, especially those of us that aren't here anonymously.

 

[Alan Molstad]

Mr Molstad, I spent 31 years of my working life in laboratories practicing the principles of science. They are founded on reason, and reproducibility.

Thats really my point.

Voodoo is the result of the human mind looking for answers and a means to understand this world....thats the ONLY place where it is found..
Voodoo is not actually part of the natural world.

Voodoo is the plain talking friend of science,the love child of human reason and imagination.

Walking with science at every step science has taken, is what we are calling "Voodoo" here on this topic.

Voodoo takes every finding of science and incorporates it into itself.
Voodoo is not against science, it's an unwelcome companion to science.

 

[o1Alex]

To tell you the truth, I'm not sure we can turn the situation around. The masses will always find the "other way" more interesting than the by-the-book way.
Just make knives the way you think best, and try to educate others, in a nice way. Nobody's going to listen to someone who's belligerent and derisive.
And remember, they're ONLY KNIVES!

I make a few knives for fun, nothing spectacular, though i made a nice bushcraf-ty fixed blade fro my wife's birthday. I think that people take heat treating and cryro-treatment, and even type of steel (when they talk about all the new 'fancy' modern steels anyway) too seriously!
A knife is basicly a tool to cut stuff with, it needs to be hard enugh to take an edge, tough enugh not to break, and pretty enugh not to be ashamed of.
My wifes one was "stone ground" out of 01, finished off with a file and heat treated with charcole in an old BBQ, blowing with a leaf blower through the vents.
Handle was made from a mean old bush in the garden-its got the forge scale on the blade, and with oil on the wood looks as good as anything i might buy.
Works just as well too!
I thinksome bushcraft folks think that the right knife will make them skiled....where as i think a skilled dude will do well even if you give him a crud knife.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Forget sparing anybody's feelings, it actually believe this thread could be pulled off topic by naming specific names, articles, techniques, magazine issues, magazines etc... For any one example you give I dare say I could find at least 3 others in any given publication. This is a much larger problem in our business than just one article or issue. Heck I was writing about it years ago and in any given magazine issue they managed to nail several of my points as if they are trying to prove me right!

B.S. sells, that is why the National Enquirer is in no danger of going bankrupt. Since we can never expect to have publishers find dry metallurgical facts as interesting as hocus pocus when sales are at stake, what we need to do is educate ourselves and realize that most of what is currently in print in knifemaking is blatant advertising cleverly disguised as factual writing- it is all infomercial!

The internet is a two edge sword, anybody can put anything on it without any facts at all, we need to remember this. But on the other hand anybody can also put real data and facts here without having to answer to publisher who expect a profit, or for you to tow a particular party line or sales pitch. Thus I believe the revolution has begun. Today there are many more guys like Mr. Purple, willing to question the status quo due to the wide variety of information that is unfiltered and at their fingertips, then there was just a few short years ago. Information that is indeed threatening to the status of some positions and individuals cannot be controlled or censored by editors here.

So I do not believe the solution is in picking and targeting individual positions or individuals as it is too limited in scope and only results it idiotic flame wars. The solution, I believe, is what has been my goal for some time- to get so much good information out there that the general knife guy is armed with enough knowledge to see through the B.S. right away and ask the right questions to expose it as the slick salesmanship or advertising that it should have been labeled as to begin with.

The big problem that the current publications create is that they are the first source the budding knife enthusiast encounters, and we are placed in the position of deprogramming the brain washing before any good information can be absorbed, and that is a tough fight to pump dry metallurgical terms into a brain that has been saturated with sensationalistic headlines and hyped-up sales pitches.

 

[johngalt]

I think a huge difference in the knife business, as opposed to say the bicycle business, is that there is little competitive evaluation.
The mountain bike business for example is very much based around delivering a near competition bike to the average consumer. Using the highest tech parts, frame, tires etc...all proven in competition. Each manufacturer sponsers riders who are rewarded finacialy by winning. The technical aspect is often very similar among brands, but certian cutting edge parts are often flagshipped by one manufacturer. If a bike is not capable of winning a race, few people in the public are interested, it's a very demanding consumer. Certain companies put out a top end product, and also a bunch of Chinese made crap that the uniformed consumer will buy because they recognize the FAMOUS name...(ie Marin and others)
The knife business seems to have much of this same type of salesmanship going on, and has for many, many years. There's nothing wrong with a quality knife made 20 years ago, 50 years ago..hell 200 years ago. The modern warrior would be just as well suited arming himself/herself with a quality 200 year old knife as the super ninja, G-10, tanto pointed, half serated pocket clip, one hand opening knife of today.
Quality, craftsmanship, dedication to the best materials makes the tool something that can be depended on. If that's not there then let the salesmanship and Voodoo begin!!!

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Welcome back Mike.
I think a lot of voodoo comes from two ideas that are doppelgangen. One is that "If it is an old practice ,it must be a good technique." The other is " If it is new it must be a good (better?) technique." Statements about quenching that has been done for hundreds of years,or that Ichi Nisanshi always did...... when he made a sword in 1649 - these are offered as proof that it is a superior technique.Remember that for centuries (up until around 1900) all the best medical experts believed in bleeding the patient to remove the blood borne properties of the ailment.Why is it bad to walk under a ladder and good to toss salt?People don't walk under ladders because something could fall on them -OK that is a REAL thing. People throw salt over their shoulder,or knock on wood, because.....because of what? Because it has been done for hundreds of years and everyone does it! It is a proven technique,but does it really do anything? No ,but who cares....certainly not the gullible masses! An existing practice was all that was necessary for a long time. For the last 50 years (and the last 20 especially) this has not been a good enough reason. Science,medicine,and industry now have SEMs,Lasers,computers,and trained scientists.All this allows reason and fact to prevail (and be changed regularly as new info becomes available).That would be enough for the scientists,but the businessmen need more.They need hype. Without hype and voodoo John can't convince a prospective buyer that his knife is better than Bob's knife. The sales and advertising executives make many times the salary of the scientists in the same company.An example,naming names,is Henkel and Ginsu.Both make knives.....Both have had huge profits and sales......neither makes a spectacularly great blade (Henkel is a bit soft,and Ginsu is...well Ginsu is crap). Both have spent millions on convincing the customer that their product is the most amazing knife made. In Hinkel's case they at least have a reasonable product,in Ginsu's case they only have marketing hype.Because they sell millions of knives does that prove that their materials and techniques are superior to the modern bladesmith - NO - but they still will convince the public and make more money than all of us put together.The masses don't want education,they want hype and voodoo. It is up to us and the industry to sort out the truth and make the best knives possible.Then ,and only then ,will there be a change in the products available,because "everyone is doing it!"
Stacy

 

[Matthew Gregory]

There is no need for me to specify, but I'll expound on my posts to help clarify, nonetheless. It's much simpler than I think many are making it out to be (I recognize this, as it's generally how I make it, too!).

There are entire texts and industry publications dealing with the applications and treatment of steels. These notes can be used to deal with mundane items such as knives and screwdrivers, right on up to bridges, massive buildings and other constructs. All of these 'things' have different applications, with different stress-ors, and different weaknesses... yet all of them use steel. The incredible beauty of steel is that it's functions, reactions, etc. are KNOWN and mappable. If you need a 'thing' to do a certain function and work under a certain set of conditions, then you can find a certain steel to fit that function -- without reading tea leaves, or contacting your dead ancestors using psychoactive plants (all right, so maybe that one is still worth trying... ).
My point is that we, as an educated culture, have an incredible grip on how things work. We don't have all the answers, don't get me wrong... but to rely on unabated conjecture simply because it worked in the past is asinine. Want to make it better? Find out why it worked when you forged during the full moon and hammered toward magnetic north -- don't just assume that those are the reasons why! (THAT is my problem with voodoo, Alan... there's nothing wrong with enjoying scary stories in the dark at night, just don't tell me that the boogieman exists!).
This thread started because I've been reading and finding and searching for a while now, and I've realized that people I was convinced knew the answers turned out to be rolling chicken bones rather than searching for 'why?', and mixing and matching facts, observations, and myths as they went along -- all in a convincing fashion, mind you. If bullshit is presented to you in the right light, most will believe it's truth. Mike mentioned politicians... I can't think of a more fitting example!

'Special' steels, magic mystery heat treatments, using a particular physical form of a given steel ('this was forged down from a 12' diameter rod using a 400 year old hammer from an old Indian burial ground, so the grain structure is aligned to the cutting edge'), etc. They are not moving us forward, they are selling someone's knives.

I want to know how to make the best knife I can. The pursuit of this is not only important to me for intellectual reasons, I find it entertaining! This IS fun for me!

What bothers me, and this is the point of this thread, is that there are those that may be content to say 'Well, it happens this way because of (insert superstitious horseshit here)." If that works for you, fine! Just don't sell it to me unless you can PROVE it! And I don't want to take your word for it, or the word of your pal... I want your information, so that I can seek to duplicate your findings -- THAT is how things are proven to be fact.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

I just re-read my post, and there are some pretty sweeping and broad statements in there... this post is meant to be a disclaimer:

I AM A NEOPHYTE.

I make no claim to inside information, nor am I claiming to know all the answers -- in fact, I have none. I am standing on the shoulders of giants, and the wind up here is awfully strong... I expect to be blown off at any moment and sent plunging to an untimely death. Please take everything I say as it should be taken, hopefully thought-provoking but not written in stone, and certainly not as educated as I wish (but I'm working on it!).

 

[Alan Molstad]

How can you 'open the floor to discussion, heated argument, peer evaluation and facts' if noone is going to even identify the specific ideas in question?

.

How about "Soaking" a blade?

Heres a topic that is always just asking for Voodoo to come and help.

If you ask a knife maker who is knowlegable on this topic, I'm sure they could give you lots of scientific means to use a soak to produce a super blade.

They will likely speak of "salts' and of "pyrometers", of times and temperatures.
foil bags, and gas, and air, and 110 and 220 power.
They will speak of the inner nature of different elements within the scientifically tested/verified steels.
They will go on and on listing supporting documents and graphs that , if understood, will clearly support their means and use of a soak.

And thats all well and good.

Now concider the situation where you have a second man, standing at his coal forge, with a hand powered billows that he is working to bring his forge up with.

All, the talk of importance and means to the "soak" of the first man, has to be "reinterpreted" by the second man to be of any use to him at all.
And this is where Voodoo can get in the way and whisper it's own advice and answers.

You see, it can be the tools we use themselves that can influence us into bringing out false conclusions in the effort to help understand the findings we are getting.

Example, back in school I once had to study the different means men have used to determin the speed of light. As different men came up with different means to calculate the speed of light, the 'official " speed would change to reflect the latest findings.
Over time, as new numbers came out of science, it sure looked like something very odd was happening to the speed of light.
With each new finding, the "official' recognized speed of light seemed to drop down.
Each new finding would lower the number from the previous number.

But was the speed of light really slowing down?......no

It was our tools, they were changeing and this could itself change the way we thought of things. The ability to calculate the number was improving and this accounted for the lower, yet more accurate number.

However, to this day, there are some people that do claim that the scientific historical record proves that the speed of light has slowed within the last 200 years.

It was the tools we used, they can change our points of view as to how we understand the findings of science we receive.

The point I'm making is that between the very soak-knowledgeable first guy I spoke of, and the other guy who have zero knowledge and understandings of the use of a soak, are thousands of bladesmiths who are at different levels in between.

Each of them, each of us , has their own different history of bladesmithing.
A history filled with numerous blades that serve as their own personal case history about how to achieve a super blade.

Many victories that point a path to follow
Many defeats that seem to show a dead end.
The problem is that each could be a fluke, an accident....an unknown.

Each bladesmith has his own ability to recreate the good advice they have received from others to a varied degree.
No bladesmith can follow directions from someone else and do so with a 100% guarantee that every unknown variable has been taken into account.

And this is where Voodoo takes the opportunity to whisper it's advice and answers.


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