Frustrated...

[Dan Gray]

However, to this day, there are some people that do claim that the scientific historical record proves that the speed of light has slowed within the last 200 years.

It was the tools we used, they can change our points of view as to how we understand the findings of science we receive.

look it this way,, was the tools used then inferior to the tools of today thus producing inaccurate test results at that time?

if one mans way is the only way he can do his job and he wants to sell his wears he has to justify why he does it different then the other guy, this doesn't always make his way wrong. unless proved to be wrong or inferior to a better way..in this we will always have many debates, would a man stand down his pride to let in a better way..yes, if he wants to better himself..

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Well let me just say that I believe that MrPurple is just the guy to ask these questions and to be concerned about this. The general public can be sheep if they wish and pay the consequences, the buyers can learn the lesson of caveat emptor or pay the same consequences, but I have a soft spot for those guys who have decided to open the door that says “Knifemaker” on it and before them is a huge, daunting, panoramic landscape full of countless quagmires and pitfalls and all this guy needs is some directions and a sound path to follow. But right there inside the door are a bunch of jokers telling this guy that if he wants to be famous and make the ultimate knife he needs to follow their path, which happens to wind and turn back onto itself so many times that one couldn’t get anywhere with a GPS systems help. They do it because they can’t look important by presenting hard facts, so instead they long for a following of lackeys that will all quickly attest to the superiority of one path or another, and in the end it has much less to do with teaching or sharing than increasing the $$$ generating P.R.

I have a soft spot for these guys starting out because I was once one of them and they deserve better. We have a bunch of jokers calling themselves “explorers” and “trailblazers” while they hack a path through the under brush right next to a four lane expressway that was built by science and industry before they made their first machete! I can’t believe the number of guys who have rose to the top in this business by reinventing the wheel. Who do you suppose has the inside line on how to get the most out of a steel- a guy messing around behind his garage with charcoal briquettes and pail of used 10W40, or perhaps (and I know I am stretching credibility here for some) the guys who designed the steel, made the stuff, tested it in labs, and has since successfully used it in scores of applications much more critical than a 4” hunter???? Yet the bozo’s behind the garage regularly tell us that those guys just don’t understand the steel and only they have the real answers… and too many believe it!!

Let me share a red flag to look out for in this nonsense- “It works and that is all that matters!”, whenever you hear something akin to this, put on your waders because you are about to be knee deep in steaming piles of it. This is often preceded by a question like how or why dancing a jig on the left side of the anvil before each blow could possibly affect the steel in any way? Of course no supporting data or reasonable explanation on underlying causes could be credibly offered so we get the aforementioned response, and all it really amounts to is “because I said so!” For me that doesn’t fly, if you are going to tell me that you are accomplishing something with steel that nobody else is (including those guys who designed and made the stuff), you darned well better have some explanations beyond wishful thinking and a flowery sales pitch.

The fact that Mrpruple has started this thread is a very good signal to me that there is hope and that we are making progress.

 

[Alan Molstad]

Two more examples of Voodoo that have popped into my knife making from time to time.

The multiple-medium oil/water quench
The use of a checkered hammer face.

When I first started to make blades, in fact when I was building my first oil quenching tank to hold the quench oil, I was talking to some on-line friends who also made knives and they suggested I use 1050 steel and a water quench.

Well, due to the fact that i had a lot of free and very good looking 5160 steel on hand, I decided to just use it instead.
However my friends were always getting such killer looking hamon lines, way better looking that even an etch could make my 5160 bring out.

So I got to thinking; "What would happen if I mixed in some water into my oil quench?"

I found a way to control the depth of how deep a blade would dip into the quench tank, then filled the tank up with clean, filtered distiled water.
I brought the level of the water up to a point where about 1/16 to 1/8th of the cutting edge of the knife would be in pure distalled water.

Then I filled the rest of the tank up with Texaco type "A" quenching oil.
I began to experiment...I tried 1050 steel and 5160, along with a billet of twisted 1050/5160 .

I even added a slight predip in DOVE dishwashing soap for the hot blade.

Know what ended up learing?
I learned what we are calling "Voodoo" has one idea after another. Voodoo never is at a loss for words or things to try next time....
-----------------------------------
Voodoo Example #2
I once noticed in a etched blade of 1050 that there were lots and lots of white dots and weird streaks in and above the hamon line.
I tried to reproduce this on a few later blades, but was unable to remember what if anything I did different.

I talked about this with a friend of mine who is into Japanese swords and he offered to have a look at what i had made.
I contacted the then owner of the knife and gave him a deal for a new knife if he returned to me the old one he had.

The moment I saw the returned knife I remembered back to how I had searched for the answer as to why that lone knife of all the rest , had ended up with such cool looking white marks on it?

Anyway, my friend looked at the blade, and yes, in a sorta amateur way, it did resemble the different aspects of a katana hamon.
To this day I'm not sure what I did different. I didn't fold the blade. I didn't really change the H/T
However I do remember that I used a big monster framing hammer from work while forging that one blade. The framing hammer was one of them with the heavy checkerboard pattern cut into the hammer face.

I have been thinking about getting one such hammer in the future to experiment with...

Ahh Voodoo, I listen and obey....LOL

 

[Phillip Patton]

Well said, Kevin. You should write a book.

 

[Steve Hayden]

I would like to make a couple of quick points (scientific, but more specific than philosophical) on topics brought up here.

Natural Gas...What we call natural gas is a mixture of aromatic hydrocarbons that mainly consists of Methane, Ethane, Butane, Propane and often, Pentane (gasoline) and Hexane. The latter two are liquid at normal temperatures and form what are called condensates. The relative amounts of these components give NG a overall BTU rating per volume that can vary from 800 to 900 for pure methane from coal up to 1400 to 1500 for gas from marine sedimentary rocks.

It would probably be more difficult to get welding temperatures from low BTU gas.


"How about "Soaking" a blade?

Heres a topic that is always just asking for Voodoo to come and help."

Not true, soaking at hardening temperature is needed to allow time for dissolution of carbides, which dissolve at temperatures from 1400°F to over 1900°F for FeCs through VCs. That is why steel manufacturers specify minimum soak times for tool and stainless steels.

I agree with Mr Gray that EDGE PACKING is my favorite myth to hate.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

I am going to cut the magazines some slack for a minute here with this thought. As I have mentioned a lot of what is printed is aimed at the new guy getting started, how many of us jaded old timers pick up a copy when looking for answers? It would not be productive to print articles for the beginner/hobbyist that were filled with information on how to use atmosphere controlled ovens, salt baths and other high dollar industrial equipment, so the reasonable thing to do is to put out how to pieces with vice grips for tongs, making due with claw hammers and chunks of train rails, and heat treating with charcoal grills, this is what the guy just picking up a copy of “Blade” would have available to them. When taken in context, this is reasonable and makes sense, however…

Somewhere along the line the message got twisted. Many of us eventually get deeper than a hobby and go professional, now we are dealing with a whole new ball game. We are no longer giving our knives away to family and friends, but are planning on charging trusting buyers hundreds or thousands of dollars for the “best money can buy”. Some makers take the logical steps necessary to equip themselves with the knowledge and the tools to actually keep up with industry in the area of steel processing.

But others found too nice of a niche in that hobbyist area to comfortably break from it, God bless them, we need an area of the market that caters to the simple rustic knife made with traditional methods, if only it could be left at that. Perhaps it is pride that has so many now denying the value of temperature controls, properly engineered quenchants, soak times and many other proven principles universally used in heat treating, or even knowing exactly what metal you are working with before treating it.

For a buckskinner who wants an authentic trade knife, a used file forged to shape and quenched in beef tallow may be the best if not the perfect knife- who can argue that? It is quite a leap however for that guy to say his trade knife defies the laws of physics because he is on the cutting edge of metallurgical exploration. If you are simply standing on the shore perhaps you could become one of the greatest seascape artists around instead of calling yourself a leader in deep sea oceanography.

I think this thread is progessing very well in a positive direction.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

But others found too nice of a niche in that hobbyist area to comfortably break from it, God bless them, we need an area of the market that caters to the simple rustic knife made with traditional methods, if only it could be left at that. Perhaps it is pride that has so many now denying the value of temperature controls, properly engineered quenchants, soak times and many other proven principles universally used in heat treating, or even knowing exactly what metal you are working with before treating it.

These are exactly my sentiments. I have NO issues whatsoever with the guy making a knife via the Wayne Goddard '$50 Knife Shop' method... for crying out loud, that's basically where I am! My problem lies with the guy claiming he's got science on his side when there is irrefutable proof readliy available showing he's 'winging' it!

Alan, I'm not sure I see where your voodoo is either voodoo or inherently beneficial, but hey! whatever floats your boat... so long as you're not selling it to me. It kind of sounds more like you're confusing a nostalgic or romantic curiosity with voodoo, but I'll admit I might just be reading you wrong. If what you're trying to say is this simplistic method of explaining something currently unexplainable is what ends up driving further scientific inquiry, I guess I see what you mean. If that isn't what you're saying, I'm definitely not sure what you're saying.

 

[fitzo]

Thinking about what I've read, something occured to me that perhaps has already been mentioned and I missed:

a recurrent source of problems happens with repetition of inaccurate information until it becomes indisputable "fact" "because JoeBob XYZ said it on a thread I read over at the forums."

By way of example only, I would offer "grain growth". It is a common misconception that grain growth begins as soon as austenitizing temps ("critical") are reached. Those experiments have been done by an adventurous bladesmith recently and reported here as just not true. Not just for a short period, but something that numbered HOURS! Now, I have personally read where an ABS Mastersmith has told someone in response to a question on a forum that grain growth starts as soon as it reaches critical. People are going to believe that because "he's a MASTERSMITH, oh my", and soon the old "he tells two people, who tell two people" proliferates it into a listing in The New Encyclopedia of Knifemaking Misinformation.

Perhaps the person was in a hurry and meant to write "in a forge with a temp well over the austenitizing temp, grain growth will begin shortly after it reaches critical because the temp continues to rise so quickly outsdide the appropriate safe range."

On the other hand, perhaps they just didn't know what the real facts were and they've just handed out a dose of their own ignorance. Which means someone who's to be called Master needs a bit more comprehensive knowledge, but that's a different subject.

The result, though, is that soon there are now a whole bunch of people that think this is gospel because they are picking up their info by the byte and don't have a comprehensive pic of what's going on. And then pretty soon you're being called a tech geek elitist because you say a furnace or salt pot at the 1475F austenitizing temp is preferable to a 2000F forge. (Or that there's a reason that steel needs to soak to get the most out of it. Or there's a reason you can't get a wavy hamon with O1 real easy because of the composition of the steel, and you oughtta learn some freakin' alloy metallurgy if you wanna use that steel. (remember that one?? i was a jerk then, too. bad habit of mine.) )

This is just a specific example of a mechanism of unintentional proliferation of misinformation. Things like this, though, contribute a confusion about what's true and what's not. Which then leads to not only voodoo but doodoo.

If this is out of place on this thread, tell me and i'll remove it.

 

[Phillip Patton]

If this is out of place on this thread, tell me and i'll remove it.

I think what you said needs to be said, but whether it's out of place on this thread, I don't know. I'm still confused as to exactly what this thread is about. ??? It has to be one of the vaguest threads ever.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

The big problem that the current publications create is that they are the first source the budding knife enthusiast encounters, and we are placed in the position of deprogramming the brain washing before any good information can be absorbed, and that is a tough fight to pump dry metallurgical terms into a brain that has been saturated with sensationalistic headlines and hyped-up sales pitches.

This is indeed the case and was a big problem for me. I felt that if it was written in a magazine like Blade that it had to be the truth. This caused caused me to be a believer of things that were unfounded and possibly even incorrect. It has taken me opening my mind to the possiblity that much of what I considered to be fact, was actually only theory, or downright misinformation. Since I came to this realization I feel I have learned far more. I have become much more of a skeptic, and do not just accept things because they are written by one of the gurus.

I may be a rarity amongst knife collectors, but I find metallurgy to be an interesting science, and I don't find studying it to be boring. What I do like though is when someone can present matallugical information in a way that the layman can understand. This is something that Kevin Cashen does wonderfully, and I really appreciate the effort he has put into his website and the information presented there. If there are more places where articles for the layman can be found, I would sure like to know where they are.

By the way, thank you for this highly informative thread.

 

[JCaswell]

We have a bunch of jokers calling themselves “explorers” and “trailblazers” while they hack a path through the under brush right next to a four lane expressway that was built by science and industry before they made their first machete!

This is well said. I defer to industrial information on these things because these are people that must get it right every time in order to make money. Why reinvent the wheel?

I have been content to do my study and make my knives for a rather specific clientelle and haven't mixed much, or paid much attention to the goings on in the 'official' knife world the last 11 years. (though I'm starting to do that more now, which is why I'm looking at these forums, etc.)

As a result, I haven't run into a whole lot of fellow knifemakers at all, much less any serious whacky voodoo priests.

Some in this threat have alluded to practices that are overt superstition. I have a hard time believing there are 'reputable' smiths pitching stuff like hammering toward due north during a full moon and so forth. If that's the case, maybe I should stay in my cloister.

 

[JCaswell]

... The relative amounts of these components give NG a overall BTU rating per volume that can vary from 800 to 900 for pure methane from coal up to 1400 to 1500 for gas from marine sedimentary rocks.
It would probably be more difficult to get welding temperatures from low BTU gas.

I don't know, is there not some standard for the quality of commercial/residential formulations of natural gas?

While I'm sure there are variations in composition (I suspect regionally), the heat generated by properly designed natural gas appliances can easily exceed welding temperatures. (Such as gas-powered steel casting appliances, commercial forges, etc.) In fact, the reason I started looking into natural gas was because I noticed that industrial equipment uses it so often. (I was suitably shocked when that revered Master Smith said that what industry does every day can't be done.)

When I checked with the gas company before converting my forge (I uses a 100,000 btu Mankel manifold), the representatives informed me that standard residential volume should be enough and that, for comparison sake, a typical pool heater is about 500,000 btu. My forge, with 100,000 btu burner and blower, easily reaches welding temperature and will maintain it at about half throttle (that's not a huge roaring flame, btw). The gas would have to be substantially weaker to keep me from welding with it.

Propane is hotter, but that's irrelevant after the forge heats (A couple extra minutes at start up.)

 

[Alan Molstad]

but I'll admit I might just be reading you wrong.

You mean my "poetic mysticism" has left you in doubt as to my literary intention?

MrPurple if I were seeking answers about a problem with a steel I would ask many here on this topic, as well as some of the more well known metallurgist here on the forum.
I have made use of the brain-bank of this forum as much as anyone else.
There is an exceptional depth of wisdom among the members of this forum when it comes to topics centered around steel.

But this topic is not so much about steel, as it is about the inner human nature we all share.
Our imagination, the inventiveness we display, the curiosity....
And as necessary as such things are for people to be creative, there is also the propencity we all share to be self-deluding.


The article in BLADE that so stirs up some is not intended to mislead anyone.
Nor are such things written by authors that are out to sway people to any course but the correct path to being a successful bladesmith.
Yet over the many years, and the many blades, a history of what works and what has not worked has had the natural effect of producing a "point of view" within the mind of the BLADE author that at times can be at odds with verifyable proofs of science.

"Edge-packing"
My guess is that such an idea comes down to us from some point in history where some metal smith use this technique to do something with the metal he was using.
This was likely picked up by good intended bladesmiths ( Because bladesmiths are always interested in how other crafts and science work with metal then as now) and became part of the methods blade smiths used to make fine knives.

"Edge packing" was likely at one time the best advice from people in the know.
It seemed to work.
And that brings me back to one of the key things I listed here that is true about knifemaking Voodoo.

That being from time to time it seems to work.

 

[fitzo]

..........
And as necessary as such things are for people to be creative, there is also the propencity we all share to be self-deluding.

There's a line in one of my favorite TV series that went, "No one here is quite what they seem." Probably applicable to knifemaker forums, too, wouldn't you think?

It is an easy failing to judge based on insufficient information....a lifelong effort to overcome. Growth is a continuing process.

 

[JCaswell]

Practical Voodoo?

In the book Damascus Steel—Myth, History, Technology, Applications, Manfred Sachse chronicles:


“In the Nordic sagas we find detailed accounts of how Wieland reduced to iron dust a sword that fell short of his expectations, and how he kneaded these iron grains into dough. This he baked into buns he fed to chickens. By smelting the iron out of the carefully collected chicken droppings, he obtained a raw material from which he forged his masterpiece, the celebrated Mimmung blade. Experiments performed at the Museum of English Rural Life, Reading/Berkshire, in the 1950s succeeded in proving that this seemingly extravagant procedure is in fact a way not only of getting rid of slags and impurities in the iron—through the action of the stomach acids of the chicken—but also of enriching it with nitrogen, because bird droppings are extremely rich in nitrides ….”

I mean, DANG!

 

[fitzo]

Science, Mr. Caswell. Chemistry. No incantations. No modern terminology, though, either, because it's not the words it's the knowledge. Still, Wieland knew something that wasn't magic, but science. Sort of a bioreactor with a beak. They use bacteria nowadays to recover precious metals from some waste streams.

Man is not really any more intelligent now than since our dawn as a species. We just have more tools. And we have less, at the same time, neh?

Just goes to prove that voodoo and science can sometimes be confused. Have to burn the crap away to get to the good stuff.

Now someone's gonna be raising chickens for swordsmithing..... Look what you've done! LOL

Peace, everyone. It's been an interesting thread.

 

[Alan Molstad]

Every once in a while in history, the world turns corner because of the actions of a lone guy messing around behind his garage with charcoal briquettes and pail of used 10W40.....or a chicken and some homemade bread...


Imagine the responce had the BLADE author suggested further use of the Wieland/chicken method?

 

[Alan Molstad]

There's a line in one of my favorite TV series that went, "No one here is quite what they seem." .

Yes, B5 was a good TV show...

 

[Mark Williams]

"I have a soft spot for these guys starting out because I was once one of them and they deserve better. We have a bunch of jokers calling themselves “explorers” and “trailblazers” while they hack a path through the under brush right next to a four lane expressway that was built by science and industry before they made their first machete!"

I'll admit it, I was one of "those guys" . Sometimes it's just in our nature to question science. We wouldnt be human if we didnt question and reason.

I would like to thank Kevin for getting me started down the path of light and steering away from the voodoo.

Now if I can just figure out how to get my soul back from that deal I made with an unspecified demon out in the shop one night.

And Fitzo. You are a funny mofo

Love ya dude :]

 

[JCaswell]

Science, Mr. Caswell. Chemistry.
Just goes to prove that voodoo and science can sometimes be confused. Have to burn the crap away to get to the good stuff. Now someone's gonna be raising chickens for swordsmithing..... Look what you've done! LOL

According to Sachse, this 'chicken technique' was regarded as something akin to sorcery in it's day. I mentioned it because, assuming it's true, it would be a interesting and little-known example of 'voodoo' with possible practical merit. (Though I would guess the smith had a good idea what he was after to even think of such a thing.)