Functional knives?

Keith Montgomery

Keith Montgomery

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May 9, 2000
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Something I just read in a knife book written by Bill Bagwell gave me cause to think. It was a statement about how he figured that because of the way the contemporary knife magazines tend to focus on knives for the collector, that this has spawned a whole generation of makers where most of them build knives to look good rather than to function well. To be fair, he was speaking about fighting knives, not knives in general.

There have been many knives that I have seen that have made me think; they look great, but will they actually function in the real world? How prevalent do you think this is in today's knifemaking?

Reason for first edit corrected by moderator; thanks Coug.
 
Keith, good thought.
The magazines seem to dictate what is in vogue. Especially to the kids that read and buy them wanting to know "the ONE". What is that?
What is every ones obsession with the tacticals, and the so called 'Fighting' knives? Who is out having knife fights, and living off the land by killing and eating vermin, and fighting off wild animals by the pack. If your in the U.S., not likely. A rough week end is having to open a can of beans with the survival knife, then pop open a hot beer.
Don't misunderstand, I love knives. They are all over my place, and I enjoy making more and more everyday, but they are just a tool. Some folks take them to an art level, but then they even cease to be tools.
Any way I just wondered since you mentioned practical use, what ever happened to just a plain old ever day knife that doesn't have a hidden chain saw or four inch spines down the back to scare the be-jesus out of old ladies if you need to get it out and cut a rope or box.
To all you guys who are living the wild life and roughing it...more power and party on if you can find a place to do it now days.
The only thing I need to watch for is on two legs, and I allow for that in my daily ware. Don't take a knife to a gun fight, someone once said???

Keep'a grindin....:D
 
Most people are truly ignorant about knives. With no factual knowledge to support then and, no clear idea of what role or function they will use a knife for, they are apt to buy what looks cool. It will probably be made from substandard materials but, promoted as the best thing since Air Jordan's. It's like the Nike ad campaigns of the knife world these days. So, know you have this uninformed consumer buying the "best" knife there is, only to discover it is a P.O.S. made from sub-standard materials. In all honesty, most of us have bought them but, we are the few that didn't give up and continued to see out what works.

I have never used a tactical knife in any way remotely tactical. I use a knife a lot. And no, I don't need an overbuilt knife either. My TTKK probably won't build a log home as well as a Busse but, how often to I need a knife capable of that service?
 
Some good answers to an excellent question. We makers get many questions about making something that someone saw in a cheepo magazine. Some of the ideas are downright silly as to a workable knife. Of course, this has to be explained as tactful as possible to the inquirer. I ask them if it is going to be a wallhanger or a user, and been fortunate about my suggestions being accepted. They may not order a knife for the obvious reasons, but at least they have a better idea about what is practical. I agree with the publications expounding more of what is saleable in most magazines. Years ago I built a customer ordered monster that had a complete saw edge on top of the 22" blade with about a 6" lockblade built into the handle, and a monster double guard of one piece brass that included a large finger hole on the bottom portion of the guard. He wouldn't have it any other way, and paid dearly for the knife I called,"Exibit A". And his buddy ordered one, also! So the second one didn't include the lockblade, but doesn't have much practical use either, unless one is inclined to dismember bodies. Maybe they intend to swordfight with each other, far as I know.Sometimes you can't steer them away from an idea, but it is still worth trying.
 
Good topic Kieth. I do believe the magazines have an influence on the types of knives made by modern knifemakers, particularly new makers. I don't however see that the work of makers nowdays is proportionaly any less functional than that of makers 20 years ago. The magazines are a good source of ideas and inspiration for a lot of makers.
Knifemakers who dcide to go down the path of making strictly 'ART' of unusable designs and with no structural integrity are very few due to the very restricted market for such items. I would consider that a damascus bladed bowie of good design with engraved fittings and a carved ivory handle to be an 'art knife',however without proper heat treat, good construction methods and sound materials the same knife is simply 'ART'. People who make 'ART' would usually have very short lived and unsatisfying careers as knifemakers.
There are probably a lot more makers around nowdays making what could be considered 'art knives' but usually not at the expense of rendering them any less usefull for thier intended purpose. Through the discovery of new materials and the efforts of such organisations as the ABS, there could be potentially more better performing and more functional blades now.I don't believe Mr. Bagwells statement is right , the knives of today are not less functional they are just more beautiful.

Steve,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
 
I have a Bagwell Hells Belle and several other "high end" using knives.

The Bagwell was designed for fighting, defending oneself, and is made with 20+ years of his experience in testing them for "survivability" under the worst of conditions.

There are few makers out there who make a long knife like Bill. He has the knowledge of how the knife should be used for defensive puroses and his designs are made for hard use and as true to the original makers of Bowies as he can be.

They are more functional than most bladesmiths make, simple as that.
They are that way because he cares enough to research how the knives were used and deployed in their heyday. Other makers haven't done as much, if any research, on the long knives like Bill.

My Hells Belle has an 11 1/8" blade that you can not tell is at the end of the handle when held if you have your eyes closed. I like to get it out and hand it to someone who has been blindfolded. Ask them to tell you their best guess on blade length. Have never had anyone come close and none over 8 inches was guessed.

The knife moves quickly and redirects are instantaneous. Balanced? 20 yrs of forging experience and experimentation have let him be capable of making a 12" bladed long knife that moves quicker than than most makers long knives in the 8-9 inch range.

As stated, I have some high end knives that are pretty sweet. Until you own a Bagwell, you have no idea what you are missing and what can be accomplished in blades that long.

Brownie
 
The variables behind Bill Bagwell's statement have been a highly motivational force to some knife makers. When we look at knives and ask the simple questions Why? and What for? the search for the reason behind many designs is like a treasure hunt.

I strongly bleieve many aspects of design are simply due to manufacturing convenience. For example, the edge that drops acutely below the ricasso: Made that that way simply because it is an easy way to forge a blade from bar stock, while preserving the origonal dimension of the bar stock to fit a guard. The dropped edge came to be along with the availability of rectangular bar stock.

The notch cut infront of the ricasso between it and the cutting edge, makes iteasier to blend and sharpen thus requires less time and workmanship.

The ease of manufacture becomes a tradition and accepted as workmanship, simply because we fail to ask why and what for.

Then comes the combinations knives, saw backs, gut hooks and the like. Just gimmics to attract the fashion minded.

Function, pure unadultrated function, is an art that is highly rewarding to those who seek its bounty.

Good Thread!
 
I strongly believe many aspects of design are simply due to manufacturing convenience. For example, the edge that drops acutely below the ricasso: Made that way simply because it is an easy way to forge a blade from bar stock, while preserving the origonal dimension of the bar stock to fit a guard. The dropped edge came to be along with the availability of rectangular bar stock.
Click to expand...

I must respectfully disagree. The dropping of the edge is a natural occurrence when forging in the bevels on a knife, and has nothing to do with ease or convenience. It in fact adds a magnitude of difficulty, which I will touch on in a moment. And these comments will not be directed at you Ed, because obviously they won't be anything that you don't already know. This will just be a different view point directed to folks that don't do this for a living and therefore may not have really thought about it from more than one perspective.

One major difference in forging a blade to shape as opposed to grinding one to shape is that you are not removing stock. You are instead, redistributing the mass from one area to another. When you hit a piece of steel with a hammer there is no steel ending up on the ground, but the mass has to go somewhere. It either goes up, down, forward, backward, or a combination of these directions.

The only way I can think of to have a forged blade in which the edge did not drop below the bottom of the ricasso would be to forge the profile of the knife, but leave the bevels and possibly the distal taper for stock removal. Well, I suppose that you could flip the blade over on it's spine periodically and tap the edge back down flush with the ricasso as you forge in the bevels, but again you are only redistributing the mass. The mass would move back up into the bevel area, which once again, would require extra stock removal in the end.

Let me jump in here and make a quick disclaimer before I get somebody's panties in a wad. The fact that I keep throwing the term stock removal in is not because I have some problem with stock removal. The whole point (and the only point) I'm making is that the simple truths of what happens when you forge a blade to shape including the profile, the definition of the ricasso shoulders, and the bevels, dictate that the finished piece will either be wider, longer (or a combination of the two), and in some areas possibly even thicker than the original piece. Some stock removal is obviously required with forging, even for those like Tai Goo who has the ability to forge a blade to probably 95% completion or better.

No, I lied. There is one more point. Forging a blade to shape including the bevels, distal taper, tang, etc. is not an easy way to make a blade. Most of us find it infinitely more difficult than grinding from a flat straight piece of steel. From the first time the piece is placed in the fire you are continually having to make sure that:
  • The bevels match very closely
  • The distal taper from ricasso to tip on both sides match up
  • The piece remains straight
  • The the tip stays in the center and doesn't wander off to one side
  • The edge stays centered with the ricasso
  • That there are no twists or kinks in the blade
  • That you don't put any divots in the spine area (especially near the ricasso)
  • That you don't pinch the front of the ricasso
All these things while holding a hot piece of steel with tongs and tapping it with a hammer. The closer you forge to shape (the final dimensions), the more critical all these things become. It is farthest thing from easy that I can imagine.

Imagine forging out the bevels on one with an 11 1/2" to 12" blade like this:
camp_with_clip.jpg


Keeping it straight, centered, untwisted, etc. is real booger, even for the best bladesmith.

Now, look at the straight drop at the ricasso:
grinds.jpg

Some folks call this dropping the choil. I call it the heel. Pulling one straight down like this with a hammer is anything but an easy way to forge a knife. I won't argue that the heel is not really functional, but neither is engraving a guard. However, the whole point is, it is not an easy way out. When I look at a Dunn, a Fisk, a Dean, etc. that was done like this I am in complete awe. It shows a great deal of time, attention, and skill. These boys can do it every time if that's what they're going for. With me, I pull it off every now and then.

I also tend to disagree that the dropped edge came to be along with the availability of rectangular bar stock. The same truths already mentioned apply whether the piece started out as flat bar stock, round bar stock, triangular, hexagonal, octagonal, or spherical.

Now, having finished this long-winded dissertation, let me add, I know that it is difficult to interpret the mood of a person through communication by means of the written word. This is not a confrontational post (a rant). Imagine a fellow smiling and talking softly. This is just one man's alternative point of view.
 
Maybe I ought to sell my 17th and 18th century Kards then. They are forged with a choil dropping out of round bar. So are Spainish dirks. Very nice pieces. One of these has a silver guilded handle with gold spacers and engraving all over the handle. They had "art" pieces then that were functional as we do today.
And I agree with Terry, it is harder to forge them puppies to shape. It is easier for an indivdual smith to do this than manufactors. I think that is what Ed was referring to in his dissertaion, production companies. It is easier to squash the front end and leave the rest along and grind it in. Some manufactors do this and call it forged and technically it is, just not forged to shape. my two cents worth anyway.
jf
 
I have never forged a blade to shape that did not have a dropped edge. I guess you would have to forge the tip and distal taper, then just grind in the bevels, right? Might as well just grind it all, just my opinion. Brett
 
Thank you everybody for your great input here. This has started to become a very informative thread. I hope that more makers add their thoughts as well as more non-makers for that matter.

Terry, your posts are never confrontational and as far as I am concerned should never be taken in a bad way. You never get in anyones face, you just shot straight from the hip. That is the only proper way to get your point across and you do get your point across very well. You also back what you post with obvious first hand knowledge. I learned some things from your post and from the posts of others and think that others will as well. What more can be asked for from reading a thread on a forum?
 
Originally posted by Ed Fowler
Function, pure unadultrated function, is an art that is highly rewarding to those who seek its bounty.
Click to expand...
AMEN. Just look at the lines of the knife posted by Mr. Primos, if that is not a work of the highest art, then I don't know what is. A rose does not need the embellishment of gold leaf. It is that simple.
 
Wow, I'm glad Terry articulated all of that and put pictures of his beautiful work in with it so that I didn't have to :)

I couldn't agree more Terry. I have very specifically tried to forge a blade close to shape without dropping the edge. The closest thing I got was dropping the edge and then "pushing" it back in...which as Terry pointed out, simply means I had to grind it off later.

I can also agree with Ed to the point that the dropped edge can actually be a hinderance in rare occasions. Some of my first stock removal knives had poorly executed designs with dropped edges (I've always like the look, even when I had to grind it in) and they would catch on the medium being cut. Such as skinning an elk, the dropped edge would hang up on hide.

But now, with better handle design and execution, and better edge geometry...the problem doesn't come up anymore.

Not only is it not easy to forge in and "pull" the edge straight down (ESPECIALLY with rounded edges on your anvil!) it adds something that can be a head-ache to clean up.

As far as Keith's original query here. I think there are quite a few makers that don't really test their knives quite enough to understand the different aspects of geometry. Like how much difference a distal taper and a nice thin edge make. A top-notch piece of steel with top-notch heat-treat will not cut well if the edge is too thick.

I am from the school that even the fanciest of my work has to be functional. I readily admit I'd be a scared kitten in a knife fight...I don't know the exact movements...but I do try to make my "fighters" light, sleek, comfortable, and tough as I can possibley make them.

So I guess my point, is even if I think it's going to end up on a shelf...I believe FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION. :)

Good thread Keith,
Nick
 
Just wanted to add the line from the other end of the spectrum of that nice, eloquent one Peter put up for us...

It doesn't matter how many blue ribbons you put on it, a pig is still a pig. :D
 
Terry,

Good job, you seem to be improving with every knife.

Let me jump in here and make a quick disclaimer before I get somebody's panties in a wad. The fact that I keep throwing the term stock removal in is not because I have some problem with stock removal. The whole point (and the only point) I'm making is that the simple truths of what happens when you forge a blade to shape including the profile, the definition of the ricasso shoulders, and the bevels, dictate that the finished piece will either be wider, longer (or a combination of the two), and in some areas possibly even thicker than the original piece. Some stock removal is obviously required with forging, even for those like Tai Goo who has the ability to forge a blade to probably 95% completion or better.
Click to expand...

Good point, this reminds me of the debate going on in another thread about the use of machinery in the construction process. Wether it's achieved by hammer, grinder or CNC, the final shape will be determined by the smith's skill and knowledge of edge geometry. That will give a blade it's efficiency.

I won't argue that the heel is not really functional, but neither is engraving a guard. However, the whole point is, it is not an easy way out.
Click to expand...

A dropped edge can have a detrimental effect on a blade's performance. As Nick mentioned, by having the dropped edge get caught up during use, or even by being a weak point on a blade. The main point being that it's a feature that seems to have developed more for aesthetic, rather than functional, reasons.

-Jose
 
The main point being that it's a feature that seems to have developed more for aesthetic, rather than functional, reasons.
Click to expand...

The dropped edge is a result of forging the blade to shape. As Terry pointed out, when you forge steel it does not go away, it is displaced. Thus when you forge the bevels and the edge, it takes its natural shape as the heel. Some manufacturers simply forge the tip (and/or distal taper) of the blade, which is easier, then grind away the bevels. I agree that technically it is a forged blade, but it's not as labor intensive as forging the entire blade to shape. At least to me anyway.

As far as it being a weak point of the blade, in my own testing of my knives, the heel has never failed. But it could possibly get hung up while skinning.

Just my $.02
Brett
 
I consider myself a fledgling student of the craft and am an enormous fan of both Terry Primos and Ed Fowler. And I agree with them both. My personal preference is to blend the dropped edge into the ricasso so it becomes a long smooth choil. My personal cutting technique means that with a dropped edge, the materail seems to get stuck there a lot more. With a blended choil, even if it gets stuck, it slides off onto the edge and the cut continues. What does that mean ? I forge the edge (it drops) and then I grind it away. Thats just my way for my own purposes. Many others use the dropped edge and it doesn't cause any grief whatsoever. Put it down to human variation.

Also, I think that two well-regarded knifemakers can disagree and still be gentlemen about it is exemplary.

Back to the issue of functionality - Thats why I started making knives. The visual effects of a knife need to remain secondary, for me at least. If I'm happy with the way a knife performs, then I work on making it look nice so that maybe, just maybe someone will buy my stuff and fund my next project. Hopefully, being true to the "code of the craft" I will work hard at that next project being better than the one before in every single way - performance, fit, finish.

You can define many different perspectives about a knife but the definition of a knife is a cutting tool. It's not defined as an aesthetically pleasing implement designed to reflect light best when placed at angle-x in display cabinet of type-y. But hey a car should be made to go from a-to-b reliably, and if it looked good and had an attitude... great ! (Helps to be the right price too.)

I think maybe we are chasing different ideals - a knife that cuts everything well, looks ace and has all the unlikely material on it that we consider "desirable." That occasionally happens all together, and thats because of some talented and together sort of knifemaker, but if it hasn't got the performance, its not a knife to start with.

My 2 cents from my large PILE of 2cent pieces. Cheers. Jason.
 
Brett,

I understand that it has a natural tendency to form during the forging process, but if not for function, then why decide to keep it or embellish it? I mean that in no way to denigrate a dropped edge, just to say that it's more the "art" of knifemaking.

While forged steel seems to make a better blade, that doesn't mean it has to be forged 100% to shape. At least as important as the smith's ability to control the properties of the steel that he's working with, is his skill at shaping the blade.

-Jose
 
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