Functional knives?

I have read through this thread several times; a good thread by the way. Gentlemen can disagree without being rude or ugly to each other. I think the posts in the latter part of this thread are addressing the statement that the dropped choil was "convienent" or "ease of manufacuring". It is not easy nor convienent to make classy looking dropped choil.It does not by necessity make a better knife; but it does not make a lesser knife either. It is much the same as a handle with exagerated curvature. History shows us that handles were predominatly staight or almost so; not all for sure but the vast majority. Does a curved handle make a better knife? Only if the maker and user believe it to be. Does it make a lesser knife? Again, only if the persons directly involved believe it to be so. General statements of fact in an art as old as blade making leaves a lot of room for many viewpoints, some are quite opposing. We make the kind of blade we like; but we must always remember that for centuries vastly different blades from vastly different cultures; Celtic, Persion, Japanese, etc. all made the grade and all were revered as the best. Our endeavors are but a tiny dot in the ongoing history of blades. The "best" covers a lot of country. a cent and a halfs worth mike
 
You gentlemen have given some very good information regarding the aspects of forging, dropped edges and the incorporation of high end materials into a functional design. I applaud you for your professional approach to this subject and your well versed replies.

One area that has not been discussed is the fact that I find this phenomenon much more prevalent outside the true custom knife realm, although there are a few maker's who follow this theme. Some of the things that really stand out in my mind are the portrayal of knives having to be extremely overbuilt, use the latest "wonder" steel, supposed "ergonomic" handles, blades with multiple grinds or wild serration patterns. What you get as a result is a "high performance" knife which is often extremely heavy, clumsy, uncomfortable and most importantly, inefficient at what a knife is supposed to do, cut. The sole reason you find these items portrayed in advertising is to catch the eye and imagination of the consumer. I myself am not immune to this. Over the years I have bought a few of these blades based on what was "hot" at the time and the looks of the knife. They have also been the ones that were sold off. Hell, I had one from a certain well known "high performance" company that featured a sabre ground blade that was 1/16" thick behind the edge! Amazing :rolleyes:

I agree that a vast majority of the knife buying public are grossly underinformed when it comes to determining what makes a quality knife. Those maker's and manufacturer's with the most eyecatching ads end up with the business a majority of the time. This is unfortunate to those who build a knife based on the old "form follows function" mindset. Take comfort in the fact that you are selling to people who respect and appreciate the work and effort you put forth to make a knife worthy of putting your name on.
 
I disagree that the dropped edge always hangs up. It depends upon how it is forged in. One like the picture of Terrys is the better of the two types of choils. To being with that is or should be the least used part of the knife. When on those rare occasions that part is inserted in some thing the type shown will "slice" or come right back out. The type of choil that is forged the the reverse way or the little half moon thingy going the opposite direction does tend to hang on because of is shape.
Mike, your 1 and one half cents? You cheap bastid.
 
Here is a superb example of elegant form following function, IMVHO, as done by Jason Knight
http://www.knifeart.com/carfoswaliv.html I am sorry that my feeble computer skills do not allow me to post this picture directly.

FWIW, here is my Oxford/American dictionary's definition of the word elegant: 1. graceful. 2. tasteful; refined. 3. ingeniously simple.
 
Terry: You have provided an outstanding example of one arena of the forged blade, she is absolutely beautiful, I congradulate you!

My question is why? If forging to exact shape and developing an edge that drops below the ricasso is your goal, fine. I stongly believe this is one respectable high art from of the forged blade.

This thread is directed at performance. I love the forged blade dearly, I can appreciate the art in the droped edge, but I feel that when it comes to performace the dropped is inconvenient. I hate to see the potential of the forged blade limited by the establishment of a tradtiion that dictates that all forged blades must manifest the dropped edge to qualify as a forged blade.

Industry has proven that the degree of reduction by forging has a direct relationship to performance. The more you work appropriate steel, the greater the potential, providing all things are done right. When utilizing large masses of steel the smith can work the steel to a much greater degree than when he starts with smaller bar stock. By simply working from 5 1/2 inch round stock it is possible to achieve greater than a 98 point reduction in mass (cutting edge) by forging. The profile of the blade being forged to shape achieves all that is necessary. The development of a dropped edge would be an insignificant contribution in this case and when it serves no purpose,and is an inconvenience, what for?
 
I personally forge the dropped choils in most all my fixed blades using round stock AND flat bar stock, but do not believe they add nor subtract from the knife's function. When I look at a totally functional knife these are a few of the things I incorporate in my own knives:

Proper balance.(distal taper comes into play)
A very sharp edge that will take serious abuse and stay very sharp.
A handle that feels comfortable in the hand no matter what position it is held. Many curved handles have limits on how many comfortable positions they can be held.
A handle finish that will not be slippery when wet. Checkered handles are great for grip, fileworked thumbrests, and other such "good looking" embellishments that add to the function of the knife.

A good gun mechanism built into the knife wouldn't hurt either. Sorry but I had to throw that one in.

There are many ways to incorporate "ART" into a knife and yet still have a totally funtionally knife. There are also many art knives being made that coulnd't cut their way out of a wet paper bag.

I believe the final chapter of blade function and performance can be read at an ABS hammer-in cutting competition to see modern day knives put to the true tests.
 
Really informative thread guys! Nothing better than hearing "The Real Guys" converse about a topic without all the egos getting tangled.

I'm sure this is a treat for those that make knives, but it's also very cool for those of us that don't make knives, but have some knowledgebase about the process.

Thanks!
 
If I could add something from a user stand point , one who has had to use a knife in a high stress situation . I truly love the look of the drop edge and deep straight edge that a good bladesmith can acheive . I do know that area is little used but what about the one time you just may have to use it to save your life and the life of a friend .As some of you know , I was in that situation not all to long ago. I had to use my knife in its' full length from front to back to cut thru a double walled sleeper ( meaning there was a gap of about 1.5" between sheets of metal ). I was truly thankful that I did not have a gap between my guard and blade as it would have hung up , I feel , many times in a time that I just could not afford the luxury of fighting with my blade to get it unstuck. I have no clue about the forging process and I really respect some of the smiths who have posted so far , I either have their work or am on the list. I do have some knives with the dropped edge but for my work and serious carry knives , they will have a large recasso and no gap.

I hope no one takes this wrong as it is just my view from one who has been there . I know Fisk,Primos and Nick make blades of the finest quality but I'll take mine gapless . Thanks for the great thread , I have enjoyed it a lot.
 
Since there are some of the best fixed blade makers here giving there advice on functional knifes and choils were brought up, what would any of you call Ken Onion's design, choil-less?
new3.jpg

I bought one like it from Ken, he told me he made his knifes like this because no matter how you use it, to the hilt if need be it will never hang up like the traditional knife with a choil. Ken is most interested in making functional knives, sure his knifes look new wave some might say, still using is the most important thing with any of his fine knifes, no doubt about it!

Ken's knifes are some of the highest sought after knifes on the market it today, they look timeless to me, so "looking good" can be a plus as well as a good functioning knife IMO!

James
 
This is just another of those things (and there are many) where there are two camps of thought, and it is unlikely to ever change. It differs from most discussions of its type ever-so-slightly in that the proponents of a blade forged to shape are not saying that their method is superior. Instead, we are merely presenting a case that it is most definitely not inferior, nor is it an easy or convenient way to forge a blade.

I'd like to toss out some more food for thought. As Jerry Fisk pointed out, the choil that is shaped like a little half moon can tend to hang a bit on those rare occasions that the knife is inserted in something right up to the guard. However even in this case it is not "stuck" where you'd have to pry it out, it's just a little annoying "snag". I might mention that most of the hunters I know don't use that area anyway. The part that see's the action is the last 1/3 to 1/2 of the blade.

But, do we write off every blade forged to shape (which is going to drop the edge naturally) as inferior by design and grind the edge off so that it's flush with the bottom of the ricasso? Heck, if you shove the blade into an animal right up to your knuckles, the guard is going to hang. Shall we assume that having a guard is an inferior design choice and do away with that as well?

The answer to the guard questions is "no". Let's see, what can we do about this little annoyance that can occur on occasion with respect to a dropped choil. The answer was simple. Here's an example of a spear point utility blade that is a general purpose knife, but could be used as a hunter:

terry_sp.jpg


Bingo! Problem resolved. As I stated earlier, on a dropped edge / dropped choil, I refer to that little area protruding downward, just below and in front of the bottom of the ricasso as a "heel". It has been slightly radiused and cants just a bit forward towards the tip. No snags or hangs. The material (or hide) just rolls right off the thing like a greased wheel.

One other thing I'd like to mention is that if I had taken this same knife and ground the edge flush with the bottom of the ricasso after taking the time to forge in the bevels, I'd have had two brand new problems.

The first being that now I would have a much thicker edge. I'd have to spend more time at the grinder. For this to be an effective cutting instrument I'd have to not only thin out the edge area, I'd have to re-work the entire bevel on both sides to come up with a good workable blade / edge geometry.

The second problem would be that I'd have now narrowed the blade a great deal, which makes the guard protrude farther below the cutting edge, and reduces my effective cutting area for slicing type cuts on a flat surface such as cutting board. Sure, I could shorten the guard to give more available cutting edge, but I'd also be decreasing the effectiveness of my guard.

Believe me folks, like a lot of my teachers, I think about this stuff. One of the reasons I can't pump out hundreds of knives a year is that I do spend a lot about thinking about design, flow, weight, balance, blade and edge geometry, etc. And just thinking about it isn't enough. A lot of time has to be spent actually putting this stuff to the test to see if it's a workable idea or just something that sounds good on paper but fails miserably in actual use.

Regarding the dropped choil possibly being a weak point on the blade, well that's just not the case. Again, let's just think about it for a moment. The ABS teaches forging to shape -- right? If the dropped choil was inherently some weak point, I strongly suspect we'd be seeing a lot less Journeyman and Master Smith makers. The darned things would be snapping off at the area in question during the performance test. That's not where they break when they do break. Whether the blade drops below the ricasso or not is pretty much irrelevant. If that area becomes a weak point, it's for some other reason, not because of the drop.

As far as whether the forged to shape blade is an easy and convenient way to create a blade, well I've already expressed my opinion of that. In fact, that is the only reason I got in on this thread to begin with. But, since I keep trying to toss in a few tidbits to back up what I'm saying, let me ramble on a bit further.

I'm late getting back to this thread because I've been gone since last Friday. This past weekend we had the Spring Piney Woods Hammer-In at the Bill Moran School of Bladesmithing in Old Washington, Arkansas.

Both days Jim Crowell and I were teaching forging. Yes, forging to shape. This was not a demo where we were doing the forging for a one hour class. This was all day both days, and the students were doing the forging under our guidance. These folks were brand new to the idea. So new in fact, that when I'd say "Don't get the ricasso up on the anvil", I often had to tell them what a ricasso was.

Now, which part would you think was easiest for the students? I'll tell you. Forging the tip on the blade and getting a basic profile. What part do you think was the toughest? I'll tell you. Dropping the choil and forging in the bevels. We had some that began to take on the shape of a banana. Some started twisting up like a cork screw. Some had squashed, wedge-shaped ricasso's. We talked them through fixing these problems when we could catch them in time.

But the whole point is, whether you are a completely green newbie who doesn't know what a ricasso or a tang is, or a seasoned professional Master Smith, the forged to shape blade is not an easy or convenient way of doing things.
 
James,

I really like Ken's work, he can grind some beautiful curves on his blades. If he's going to the Blade show this year, I'll definitely be by his table to look at his work. I especially like this model.

standard.jpg


Terry,

Good post and another great looking knife!

Properly executed, I'm sure you can use a knife with a dropped edge for years without experiencing any problems. However, under certain circumstances, there is a chance that it can have an effect on function. No matter how poorly executed, I don't see how an engraved guard could have any effect at all. That's what I meant to point out, not that a dropped edge would preclude a knife from being functional.

I've owned a few forged blades with dropped edges, some from Mastersmiths, and can see the amount of effort that can be put into the choil. Your knives being a good example. You not only spent a lot time at the forge, but on design as well. As a result, you've significantly reduced the chances that the choil will play a role in function.

It's the same with a guard. You can spend as little or as much time as you wish. An extremely thin, abbreviated guard might get hung up inside an animal, but, properly designed, it will allow full use of the blade.

Forging a blade to shape takes a lot of effort and skill, and can save a lot of time at the grinder. However, if it will allow you greater control over your steel of choice, that extra time is insignificant compared to the increased potential in performance.

-Jose
 
Terry: You tend to hold that the only way to forge to shape is to have the droped edge. I strongly disagree. I still have five blades I forged under Bill Moran's eye at his forging tutorial. All were from 1" round stock. Not one of them have a droped edge. The first day I stated my reasons for not wanting to drop the edges. Bill did not tenaciously hold to the requirement of the dropped edge. I asked if it was possibe he replied "Shure, I will show you how if that is what you want to make". He taught me how to forge without dropping the edge.

As a matter of fact, forging without dropping the edge in the final form requires more manipulation than simply dropping the edge. I fail to see any benefit of the dropped edge other than as an art form. If you want to forge that way, fine, they can be beautiful but you are face to face with a functional design fault that you have to tame. Are they weaker? No. I have never implied that they are weaker. I do feel they are an art form, and if you like them for that reason it is great.

Bill Scagel forged the dropped edge, but he kept them tight to the guard to minimize the oportunity to hang up. He did not forge what we generally call the ricasso. He also started with larger round stock to provide the oportunity to work the steel. There is nothing wrong with his designs. He absolutely knew what he was doing, what for and why were absolutely understood. He made what he liked.

The first knife I purchased as a little kid had the dropped edge much like the last one you showed a picture of. I used it for years, dressed deer, elk, antelope and bear. I learned to hate it, I could keep my index finger on the ricasso to prevent it from haning up, but it constantly chewed a hole in that finger.

Jose and APM: That Ken Onion Blade is absolutely beautiful, thanks for sharing.
 
Ed,
If you say it can be done, that's good enough for me. One thing I'll never do is pretend to know it all. There are no delusions of grandeur for this old boy.

If you've got a shot of those knives I'd sure like to see them. Not for proof, but to see if I can visualize how it's done. If it's not just a profile where the bevels are ground in after the fact, I just can't figure out where the steel is going when you hit it with the hammer.

Our little difference of opinion is no big deal. You say it's a functional design flaw and I say it isn't. You'll never change your mind, and it's highly unlikely that I'll ever change mine.

But in the grand scheme it doesn't matter. If we all did the same thing and all knives looked alike, what an extremely boring life it would be.

Oh, and just to make sure that we continue to sing from the same sheet of music, I know you never implied that the dropped edge was weaker. My reply about that was in response to Jose's statement:

"A dropped edge can have a detrimental effect on a blade's performance. As Nick mentioned, by having the dropped edge get caught up during use, or even by being a weak point on a blade."

Also, I never said that the ABS required a dropped edge. I said that they teach forging to shape. In what is apparently my own ignorance I did say that forging the bevels in would naturally move the edge down.

And understand, none of what I've said in this thread was cheap shot at you or Jose. It was all my alternative viewpoint with explanations of why I have these views.

We do share the same opinion of Scagel. See, we have some common ground. :D I have handled and studied quite a few of Scagel's knives that are part of Dr. Jim Lucie's collection.

Scagel is an aquired taste. I can honestly say that the first time I saw one in a photo I did not like it.

As I matured a bit in knifemaking and began to study the curves (the man was a wizard with curves), and began to understand the reason for the tang being forged up top instead of centered, with the high-riding handle, I really started to appreciate his work. He didn't just make a knife. He really thought about every aspect and did everything for a reason.

When I got to hold and look closely at some of his knives the appreciation grew even more.

Several years ago I attended a class that Dr. Lucie did on the construction of Scagel knives. As Scagel's personal physician, Dr. Lucie had some fascinating stories to tell about the man. Aside from learning exactly how Scagel made a knife, we learned about the man himself.

If you have an appreciation of Scagel knives and haven't talked much with Dr. Lucie before, pull him off to the side sometime. I doubt that there is a man alive who knows more about Scagel and his knives.
 
I just noticed that as this thread has progressed it sort of seems people are thinking I'm against the dropped edge.

NOT AT ALL.

I forge my blades pretty darn close to shape, and part of that (TO ME) is a dropped edge.

I was simply stating that if done "INcorrectly" it can POSSIBLY be a "hang-up." I admit to making one like that in the beginning. Luckily it went to my dad and he pointed it out to me.

On ALL OF MY KNIVES that I've since learned to utitilize better geometry on (YES, WITH dropped edges) I have had ZERO complaints about the dropped edge hanging up.

This is definitely one of those issues where you will always have some on both sides of the fence. Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree.

The really nice thing about it is the controlled, intelligent dialogue that has transpired and not just a nasty pi$$ing contest :)
Nick
 
All of the fine makers who posted here: It is a tribute to our craft that this did not degenderate into a pissing contest. I believe that we all can agree that we sometimes disagree. Sometimes we are soundly on one side of the fence or the other. Everyonce in a while all of us seem to have to straddle it for one reason or the other. BUT; the moment the words come out; however politically correct and nicely put; that mine or my way is the bester and yours is the worster, you have made a mistake; a failing to our craft and the heritage of the blade. To proclaim superiority in an art form such as knives, or in a tool form such as knives, is the height of arrogance. There are too many subjective feelings, too many details that matter to one person more than another, too many old blades that contradict all that we think we know today. Too many makers who don't stand on a stump and tell the world that theirs is the best, yet still make a knife that is as good as any out there; whether art or tool. I'll shut up now. mike
 
Terry: I will try to get a photo of those first forged knives. They are actually a beginning crude form of the blades I now forge.

Most of the time knives are fun stuff! Hunting, fishing, recreational kind of involvement, man, tool and environment. We usually have time to work around ecentric facets of the tools we use. Most knives will never be used to the manimum potential of their construction and design.

Once in a while man finds himself in a jackpot where the ranch is on the line. Jerry Shipman is a home town example of a man absolutely needing a knive.

I just read about a young man hung up on a cliff face, his arm pinned by a boulder. He thought it out, waited until the last possible moment for help to find him, knew it would not happen. He tied a tournequet around the pinned arm and amputated it with his knive, then walked out. He also saved his life with his knife.

It is times like these that emphatically provide motivation for us,the knifemakers, to make the absolute most appropriate knife we can in the hope that our clients will be survivors. Thus the reason I consider discussions like this to be a highly significant worth while event. We need to talk about issues of the knife that really matter and each consider the variables seriously.

I thank you Terry for challenging my statements, and encouraging a sincere discussion.

Take Care
 
Great thread guys!! I've enjoyed reading and RE-READING it :) Although I don't forge my knives, I sure enjoy reading about it and appreciate all that goes into it.
 
Terry,

"A dropped edge can have a detrimental effect on a blade's performance. As Nick mentioned, by having the dropped edge get caught up during use, or even by being a weak point on a blade."
Click to expand...

:footinmou My mistake, bad choice of words. I did not mean to imply that Nick was against a dropped edge, or that a knife with a dropped edge could not be designed to be funtional.

Mike,

Good post. There's nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree, it's just a difference of opinion.

Ed,

What a warrior! I'm sure your knives are up to the task, but I don't think I'd be able to cut my own arm off under any circumstance. Or hack my way out of a sleeper with a broken arm for that matter...:D

-Jose
 
I wonder if the guy who had to sacrifice his arm for his life had a knife with a choil?? I dunno. I wonder if it would have made a bit of difference?? Uh, I doubt it.

While at the ABS Hammer in this past weekend I got to demo in the cutting contest with a knife that Reggie Barker let me use. It is, in my opinion, a high performance knife. I must say that it was my first cutting competition and I was impressed with all of the other knives performance as well: Crowell, Fitch, Walker, Robinson, Foster, others that I cant recall right now. Prior to the competition, these guys were doing things that I never would have done to a knife. Pure abuse in most books. As far as I know, none received any damage. Also, they had dropped edges.

The day of the high performance knife is now. Just attend one of these, even participate if possible, and you will be convinced. However, I am not suggesting we rest on our bottoms and quit experimenting and testing new methods. I anticipate the next level these and other makers strive for.

Great thread by the way. I am still having trouble envisioning a forged blade not having a dropped edge. Where does the steel go when the bevels are forged?

Brett
 
Brett,

I wonder if the guy who had to sacrifice his arm for his life had a knife with a choil?? I dunno. I wonder if it would have made a bit of difference?? Uh, I doubt it.
Click to expand...

Sure, I can see it now. "Mountain man found dead, lodged under a boulder. The dropped edge of his knife found snagged on his elbow, in what was apparently a last ditch attempt to free himself by severing his arm..." :D

-Jose
 
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