Functional knives?

Ok calm down fellows. I was not talking about major scratches here. More along the lines of the little "curly q's" sometimes seen at the ricasso shoulders. Nothing major. And I am only speaking from my own experiences. I did find that I could lay down a good 220 grit and then etch and it was a much easier and faster finish than my current 600 grit satin.

Those who etch their blades will know immediately some of the consequences of their heat treating techniques, those who never etch can only guess.
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This is where performance testing comes in.

You guys are relentless
:)
 
Originally

I do have a quick question for anyone who can answer it for me. Does the traditional Japanese clay/water quench produce the different colors of steel directly? Are the blades etched, or is it the traditional polish that produces such a dramatic contrast?

-Jose [/B]
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Much of this is due to the steel used, along with finish to a lesser degree. Each steel has its own way of showing a temper line, some more pronounced than others. "Usually" the higher the Chrome or Nickel content the less the temper line shows up. High carbon,low alloy steels "usually" show good definition with out much fuss.
 
Pete,

Thanks for the reply. I was also told that with some of the older swords the natural patination process effects the steel differently, depending on the hardness of the steel.

-Jose
 
Jose, My experience with old Japanese swords is limited. I have heard that the constant polishing process that happens after hundreds of years of care has an affect on the visual appearance of the steel. If I understand the process of caring for a sword, one would use camelia
oil( I think that's right) to wipe the blade down, then use a powder
bag to tap on a talc, then wipe the sword, in one gesture and direction, then oil again. The talc is a super fine abrasive and after many thousands of such treatments would bring out all of colors in a blade.

It would also be reasonable to assume that the different swords would have different alloys depending on where and when the iron ore was found and smelted. If Al Pendrays wootz bars are any indication, (there are lots of crystalsd of many different colors) then colors would be revealed in the jacket steel's large crystalline structure.

Tempering will also cause steel to manifest different shades of the spectrum. One smith whom I spoke with could tell how hard a blade was by the tinge of color in a blade.

As to the question abouty polishing having an affect, I would say that it does. There are a number of books that reveal the long process of polishing a Japaneses sword. A polisher has the ability to manipulate what one sees. Kodansha publishing has numerouds books on the subject. My favorites are by Kanzan Sato(Can't remember the title) and of course the great collaboration between Yoshindo Yoshihara and Leon Clapp.

Probably more info than you wanted....

shane
 
Shane,

No, the more information the better! I read the Yoshihara book a few years ago, I highly recommend it. I don't have much experience with Japanese blades either. I saw a few older examples, on a website, and the contrast between the spine and edge was pretty extreme on most of them.

It's a pretty dramatic effect but I guess you wouldn't want to give up the benefits of modern steels to achieve it.

-Jose
 
It seems like someone very wise once said that we need to ask "why" when we seek out the true nature of a knife. I have a 2 1/2 year old at home, so I'm getting to know that "why" question all too well lately. Well since this thread has dealt a lot with the dropped edge/heal. I would like to ask a "why" question. If all of you will please open your August issue of Blade Magazine to page 42... There is a black and white photo of a Scagel knife at the top of the page. Please look at the heal that has obviously been ground off at an angle. Why? It doesn't end with this guardless knife... Please turn to page 52 and look closely at the knives pictured there. Even some of the knives with guards have had their heal ground down. There isn't enough room in front of the guard to choke up unless you have fingers like an elf, so "why" would Scagel have done that? Was he eliminating a stress point that could have caused a crack during the quench? Food for thought...

Rick
 
Hallo all....

Kind of sad today. After all of the earlier talk about design and the JS test knives. (You know the part about submitting different styles and designs.) Mr. Fisk recommended that you NOT show up with 5 of the same kind of knife. Well, I got the most recent issue of Blade, and oddly enough there was an article on that very matter.

I was amazed to see the pictures of the knives people had passed the JS test with. They mostly looked the same, except for length. The styles seemed to vary little from one to the next. I'm not sure what they are looking for. Shouldn't the lines of a spacer run parallel to the guard? Does proportion count for anything? Who determines what designs are acceptable? And who decides what is beauty? Is it a written standard we can all agree on, or is it subjective? And if it is subjective, then who "trains" the reviewing committe on what to look for?

Fellas, for a year the only thing that has been on my mind is passing that test. And I have put in the time to design 5 different blades. Should a guy design and build, 5 slim bowies with dropped edges and maple handles. One 5 inch, one 7 inch, one 9 inch, and one 11 inch and one 15 inch. I'm confuesd by the lack of variation?!?

Is it just a matter of shutting up and playing the game?

That would really be sad.

Shane
 
Shane
Have not seen the article yet. I oversee the masters judging. However if it will clear up anything. I reccomend five different styles for the judging for JS. Plus no damascus for your JS. We have some people that do bring the same styles in for JS. Not good but will not get you thrown out at this point either.
Mastersmith it is required that you bring no more than two of the same styles. Please look in the by laws for clear on consise instructions. When you get your papers for JS and MS there is also a guidline that lets you know what will be looked for. The guidlines are also published for MS testing as to what we will be looking for.

As to judging. In a way it is subjective. As is any art form. What is art and what is trash is always subjective. The best that we can do at this point is to bring 3 new judges in each year as JS judges. Let them work with the "Old guys", push the Old guys from the JS judging after two or more years up to MS judging to work with "Old Guys". The MS judging we make sure we have at least 4 guys in the room that has judged 2 or more years. We do everything possible on both levels to insure that it is not a good ole boy thing nor unfair to anyone. I have judged no against some of my best friends and voted for yes on people that I did not like. personal feelings are put aside in the room or the judge will be asked to discontinue judging and will be replaced. We always have a backup judge in case something like this does come up. So far it has not.

Sides from all of that do not belive everything you see in pictures. I have seen pictures of knives that looked great and then brought in to be judged and failed horribly. Thats like a picture of me, not bad till you see me in person then dogs start barking, kids crying and women weeping kind of thing. I got used to it though.
If you do not have a copy of the testing requirements I am sure you can down load off of the americanbladesmith.com web site.
j
 
Hey Jerry,

Quick question on the philosophical outlook of judging JS knives. Is the default that the applicant should pass, unless he screws up, or is it that he should only pass if his work somehow raises the bar? E.g., if an applicant comes with 5 fairly similar knives, perfectly executed, balanced, ground, etc, but boring as hell, would they pass? Another way to ask is, when you turn down an applicant, do you consider that you have to point out to specific mistake, or is it enough to say "good but not quite good enough"?

Thanks,

JD
 
He passes unless he screws up for JS and MS. If he does screw up and does not get his stamp, it is very carefully explained step by step exactly what kicked him out on what knives and it is explained how to fix said mistakes so that he understands how to fix them himself.
Raising the bar or being boring is not for us to judge. That is for you. We give you a miniumum standard and it is up to you to take it on.
You have to remember, not every one can be in the parade. Someone has to sit on the sides and clap.
 
Thanks Jerry - I had been wondering about that. FWIW, that's the way I think it should be.
 
Jerry, thanks for the insight. Just trying to understand what the ABS needs to see. Too much contradictory info out there.

shane
 
...for an answer to an earlier post re: where the "temper line" is on other makers knives? Through the ricasso or just barely to it? Why do some makers do this?
shane
 
Hallo !

I was also wondering about the recent trend to place a ferrule/spacer with a groove of some type directly behind the guard? Many actually with sharp edges?

It seems like maybe that's a great spot for hanging up, and starting a hot spot?!

I thought handmades were supposed to be user friendly?

shane
 
Wow, I've missed alot by staying gone from this forum. So much can happen in such a short time.

What can I add to this discussion? Lets see, if I remember right, the thread started out asking what makes a functional knife. Or what makes a knife functional. Somehow, the dropped heel came into play and became the center of the focus for this discussion. Shane has asked repeatedly about the hardening zones in reference to the dropped heel. I'll start my comments by addressing his question.

When I went to the Moran School of Bladesmithing Shane, I was taught the proper method of heat treating a forged blade, according to my instructor. It turns out he was right in his methods. And so was I. I was already practicing a good method for heat treating. Just not as good as his. But one thing I came away from the school with about heat treating a blade was this: Concentrate your initial heating on the ricasso, because that SHOULD be the thickest part of the blade and requires more heat than the rest of the blade in order to come up to quenching temp. I always start out heating the ricasso area as a result of that learning. And I guage the progress of the heating according to the heat in the ricasso area. Make sense? By the time that dropped heel is up to temp, the rest of the blade has been ready for a while.

If my blade has a dropped heel, and most of them do, I always aim for the top of the heel for my quench line. There's a few reasons for that, but the most important one is that it's a dividing line in the edge. That's where the edge stops and the ricasso or choil begins. I don't want any quenched hardness in my ricasso, so I quench only the edge. The other reason is that I edge quench a majority of my blades. And I use the dropped heel as a guide for the depth of the quench in my high tech electric skillet. Hey, I don't argue with success! He he.

To date, I've never had a cracked choil or dropped heel from this quenching process. Why do I do it that way? Because I've found that it works for me and works very well. Quenching oil and temp is another story. But, for the record, I use half corn oil and half sunflower seed oil and preheat it to approximately 150&deg F for the quench.

As to the dropped heel versus the no heel blade, I have no real gems to offer. As a side note, I was called on by a good customer to forge up my best rendition of a Loveless style knife. I've always liked that style but since I started forging I found it difficult to keep the shape right because of the no heel style of blade. I tried and failed to forge the blade in the traditional style. I have no idea how to do it and wish I could learn the trick. I admire the clean lines of Ed Fowlers blades and would like to explore that style of blade for myself. I also like the dropped heel, but would just like to expand my horizons a bit for a more well rounded offering for my customers. When I forge a blade to shape, there's a dropped edge or heel. I've learned to work with that and make it work to my advantage. The best example of that is the integral guard that's forged into the back of the dropped heel. What could be more simple and add so much for so little effort to a working knife? Hard to imagine for me. And choking up on a blade by placing your finger in front of the guard? Heh. The guard is just like the yellow line on a school bus. Don't set foot across that yellow line and don't put your finger past the guard. Grave danger could result if you ignore that rule. Why else would you put a guard on a knife? That's why I give no thought or regard to the design of the heel in relation to the guard. Sometimes my ricasso is long and other times it's short. Sometimes, there's no ricasso at all. It depends on the knife, the customer and my mood at the time.

I hear folks say to keep your hammer off the ricasso area. Why? Now there's a question for you. I have never had any fear of the ricasso area and therefore don't worry about working it over with my hammer. If I can't clean up my ricasso I need to find a new line of work. Those are all just my opinions and and don't mean much in the big picture. Just my 2&cent for this discussion. I hope I've helped but I guess I've probably stirred the pot a bit too. That's just my nature being an Arkansas peckerwood. :D

Edited to add:

Oh yeah, about etching. I etch every single blade I forge and finish without fail. Every single one. It provides me with a roadmap to the success or failure of my heat treating technique. And it provides my customers with a measure of assurance that I'm doing a good job in that respect. Of course if I miss the quench my customer will most likely never see it because I'll do it again and etch it again. It keeps me honest and helps me to eliminate returns for warranty work on my blades. The acid etch really opened my eyes and gave me an edge that I value highly. It's not all just about how purty I can make the blade. It's about performance, quality and reliability in the field. The acid etch is literally my acid test.
 
Max,

Good post! I can't answer Shane's questions but my thoughts are that the area where the hardened steel ends would be a likely spot for a blade to fail. If the hardened area ends where the bevels meet the ricasso there's a lesser amount of steel to support stress. A blade hardened into the ricasso would give more steel to support the areas of the blade that flex at a different rate.

I feel that there's an art to making a fully functional knife, but there's also a place for high art knives that aren't necessarily meant to be used, even if the steel in the blade is quite good. So a maker might include features that might detract from the function of a blade, especially if it's more likely that one of his pieces will be displayed on someone's mantle, rather than be taken into the field to be used.

-Jose
 
Good thoughts Jose', and I'll bet you're pretty close to right with your observation about the weak spot at the junction of the heel and ricasso. However, in my opinion, any hardness in the ricasso is unwanted and unneeded. In fact, my opinion only here, a hardened ricasso would be more likely prone to failure than one that's dead soft. And what are we talking about here anyway? A knife, not a crowbar, right? I'm not meaning to sound sarcastic at all. I'm very serious. There is a limit to the performance you should expect out of any knife, depending on it's design and construction. And most importantly, the method used to heat treat it.

Here's just a few thoughts about edge quenching versus quenching the entire blade, ricasso and all. Out in the field, a person may really and truly have to count on a knife to save their life. And after it saves their life, they'll want to still have the knife available to help them survive. Hopefully fully intact. If a blade is fully hardened and not properly drawn back, (especially on a hidden tang) the tang can shear off at the guard. Now you no longer have a functional knife. If, however, the ricasso and tang are never subjected to the heat treating process, other than proper normalizing, there is little if any chance of that happening. Oh, it may bend a bit, but that can be fixed in the field. See where I'm going with this Jose'?

And sure, the edge may crack at the heel/ricasso junction if it bends. Big deal. Because the spine is soft, the blade won't crack out the back of the spine like it might if the spine was hardened. Even if a big, nasty crack goes up the edge and meets the quench line it's no big deal. Yeah, it'll look ugly, but I don't think Mr. Grizzly bear is going to tease you about your ugly knife while you're tickling his gizzard with it.

Now, I'm sure this post is going to draw some serious fire from some of the other makers here. And I hope it does. Each knife maker has to be true to his own beliefs about what makes HIS knives the best they can be. And everybody has an idea about all the particulars that go into coming up with a completed knife. I make using knives almost exclusively. But even the purty, flashy ones will go the distance and perform as good as any knife I produce. So far on my journey of knifemaking I have never had a blade fail and be returned except for the very first one I ever sold. We all remember those blades I'm thinking. The bone handle cracked and the fellow sent it back to me for a replacement handle. Easy stuff right? Heh. When I got that knife back I took a close look at it. It just didn't look right for some reason. Say, is that blade bent, I asked myself? I grabbed it in my hands and tried to bend it and whoooaaaaaaaa!! It bent like it was made of copper. I did a good job of annealing the blade but I was so excited when I was making it that I forgot to heat treat it before putting the guard and handle on it. I made that fellow a new knife so I could keep that one to show off to all my knifemaking buddies! Heeeeeee haawwwwwww!!! Now that's what I call a bad heat treat. :D
 
Max,

We're definitely on the same page. These are points that may come into play if the knife is called upon above and beyond the call of duty. I don't believe the ricasso should be fully hardened or the tang, or even the spine for that matter. I'm still learning all the processes invloved in forging and heat treating a knife so don't have a full understanding yet.

-Jose
 
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