Functional knives?

Tony, I used the example of the Grohman knife to illustrate a design meant for a specific practical use, which is after all the topic of this thread. The fact that it does not have a guard is a major design flaw. Goes to show that most knives can be improved upon.

That is why so many of makers continue to push the idea of high performance.A high performance knife does not mena just good steel. It is an entire package of features. Each component part must be examined and refined. This includes the sheath. Unfortunately the changes are generally so subtle that most customers don't recognize the difference.(I.E.The modified Micheal Price Grind) If you have not used a knife in tough condition you may not appreaciate the subtle improvement that grind makes. And unless you know what to look for, you might miss it all together. By the the way, for all the makers who wonder, it is not an easy grind.

So much of what we do is education. Before we can help the public understand what elements in a blade are useful we have to test the rightness of our own understanding of the knife as a tool.

I would suggest we all take a look at the "working" knives we produce and ask why we are making them the way we are. Is it just because it looks neat? Or is it becasue that's the way we have always done it? Or was that how we were taught? If at any time during your study you come up with an "I don't know." Then there is probably an opportunity to simplify some part of what you are doing. The maker who revises his ideas constantly then puts his ideas to the test will eventually perfect the function of his blades. AS a proviso, the most important thing a maker can do is to understand completely the work his knife will do. If you are designing a knife to fight with then you will have some different ideas about design than the amn who is designing a knife to fillet a big gar.

I appreciate all of the knives I have seen on this thread. Some day I hope I can do such beautiful work. But right now I am just centering around the design elements that are practical for use in my specific part of the world.

Again I would ask for some specific testing or stories about other makers design and their specific uses. Maybe we can compare notes and discover something new.

Take Care!

shane
 
shane wrote...
Again I would ask for some specific testing or stories about other makers design and their specific uses. Maybe we can compare notes and discover something
new.

Sounds like a great idea.
 
Some thoughts and a test report:
Once many moons ago I read a military training senario that suggested that when a bayonet (mounted on rifle) stuck in the body of the one stuck the officer could assist retrieval of the blade by fireing a round. I wondered about it for years, then after I had been making knives and answering some deisgn questions I made a deal with the man who owned the packing plant where I did 'volunteer work'. First I asked if he or any other folks on the floor had ever had a knife stick in meat or hide? NO they had never experienced it. None of the blades they used had a dropped edge, not skinners or sticking knives or boneing knives.
Then I made a deal to purchase what I damaged with the following test. I slammed one of my early blades into ribbs of beef hanging in the cooler. Not one incident of stuck. Not between ribbs or thru them.

I believe the necessity (of there was one) of the sub hilt fighter was the result of dropped edges that stuck in the stabbed. Just another method of working around what I call a design fault.

Does the ricasso length limit cut? When you consider that the knife works with a saw like movement, the length of the ricasso does not limit depth of cut, it does limit the length cutting edge. A trade off, but I consider it worthwhile when using a knife the way I do, the added leverage of a forward grip has proven itself in use (to me).

Some may remember the TV movie Centenial. McKeeg gets stuck by one of the villans, control and use of the knife is lost to the villan as his knife is stuck in McKeeg's side. McKeeg procedes to work the villan over, then spares his life as he is the son of a friend. An old timer lays traditional words of wisdom on the villan, "Never stick a knife to the hilt!" I wondered why carry a knife that can get stuck?
 
A big thanks to Ed Fowler for adding his testing experience to this thread.Ed has shared his testing with as many people who have listened. For those of us who have advanced our understanding of the high performance knife, I offer our appreciation and deepest gratitude.

Oddly, Rick Baum and I talked about that very movie the other night. I wonder what kind of knife Michener was thinking about when he wrote that? His incredible talent for researching historical events would lead me to beleive that he found a specific source for this event.
It does illustrate a point of view regarding the dropped edge.

Has anybody ever consulted a Master level martial artist for their opinon on this particular part of knife design?

Gratefully, I am not a knife fighter. It would be difficult for me to design a knife that would represent a good "Tactical". It would take many hours talking with a knife fighter to discover the elements involved. I suspect that a true master would be unconcerned with what kind of blade he was using as long as it was very sharp, tough and did not fail to perform it's duties.

I also wanted to return to a point that Mr. Williams brought up earlier. He mentioned it was a good thing for gentlemen to air their opinions without it deteriorating into a urinaating contest. (Not a direct quote) I would agree that in a nuetral setting, a conversation like this is great for everybody. However, I might add that there are a number of folks here who use every opportunity at their disposal to
degrade other makers, by doing so hope to somehow elevate themselves in stature. When I attended the Blade school last year, there wasn't an hour that went by when somebody did not make a derogatory statement about a particular style of blade or person. These statements were made by some well known knife people. It got to the point that I wanted to crawl under a rock rather than tell somebody I was from Wyoming. In short, it's this kind of reaction to new ideas that causes makers to polarize their thoughts rather than accepting or considering new ones.

On a solemn note....
May we remeber the fallen heroes who have shared their blood to give us the freedom to speak our mindsand our conscience. May we stand and be measured among them as worthy of their sacrifice. And may God grant us the strength to honor their memory by seeking peace.

God's Light and Guidance be with you brothers as we observe
this day of memory.

Respectfully
shane
 
I certainly had no idea this was going to turn into such an informative thread when I started it. Thank you to everyone that has taken part so far.

Now as far as knife fights go, I doubt that a dropped edge will cause any problem. Unless you are certain of it being a killing blow, stabbing is not the best way to attack your opponent. It is better to use slashing and chopping attacks. That way you can more easily stay out of the reach of your opponent.

The aspects of a good fighting knife are for another thread, but it is a topic that interests me very much.
 
Keith,

I've never trained in knife fighting, or been in a knife fight, so I'm not offering any expert opinion here. It may be different with shorter length knives, but if I'm not mistaken, the Roman gladius developed because they found that thrusting was much more effective in stopping an opponent than slashing. But even if that's not true, in a life and death encounter, you may be forced to stab your assailant anyway.

Growing up, my interest was in fighting knives and swords. I've never liked the idea of the dropped edge. Originally, it was because I was concerned it would get caught up under someone's belt, if you tried a gutting maneuver. When I bought a Randall fighting knife, the dropped edge was one feature that disappointed me, along with the sharp guard. A knife with a well done dropped edge, like the one posted by Terry, might not have this problem.

-Jose
 
In repsonse to Anthony Lombardo's remark about a radiused heel on a dropped edge blade.

If the heel is radiused and there is a ricasso big enough to choke up on. (A grip where the index finger wraps around the forward edge of the guard.) Then I am afraid a terrible accident will result. Your index finger will be cut if it slips forward.
If you do not have a ricasso wide enough to choke up on, then you have limited the funtion of your knife by decreasing the number of ways it can be held.

I have always been really confused on the reason for the dropped edge.
Many years ago I attended the San Jose Custom Knife Show. I met a number of big names. One of the makers, Can't remember who, told me that the dropped edge came as a result of Bob Loveless' feelings about the forged blade. The short of it was that Bob felt if a blade was forged there should be some qualifying tell tale signs. Such as hammer marks and the dropped edge. One gentleman told me it was because that was how the ABS told him to do it.

Can anybody tell me why the dropped edge is more funtional? Or if it is meant to do some chore specifically that has been overlooked?
Studying the knife as a tool is my great passion, so what make the dropped edge knife a better tool?

One last thought that I am reluctant to throw in because it will really stir the pot. At the Blade school I forged every design I could think of. Out of respect for the teachers I forged the dropped edge on nearly every blade. I did not heat treat any of them while I was there. Instead I brought them home where I could work carefully.
I worked the torch the way I was taught at the blade school. Heated the edge properly, and I heated well into the ricasso area. When it came time for the first quench cycle, every one of them cracked at the edge of the heel in an arc into the blade. After six successive failures, I ground off the dropped edge on one of the blades, voila, no more cracking. I began to look for the reason why these failures had occured. I had forged evenly and carefully at the proper temps. I had normalized exactly how Charlie and Jim taught. I was stumped.

I noticed there are a lot of smiths who forge the dropped edge who only harden the heel as high as the beginning of the ricasso. I wonder they had the same kind of failures I did? Was this their solution to my problem? Could anybody tell me why these blades failed?

I have never had a blade forged from thick stock at low temps, either warp or crack. But somehow, thin stock higher temps and a dropped edge have failed me every time.

Have a good day!

shane
 
If the heel is radiused and there is a ricasso big enough to choke up on. (A grip where the index finger wraps around the forward edge of the guard.) Then I am afraid a terrible accident will result. Your index finger will be cut if it slips forward.
Click to expand...


"What I think we have here is a failure to cooommmuunniiccate"

If the edge is dropped and the heel is radiused, if your finger slips while wrapped around a working choil, it is IMPOSSIBLE to cut yourself! The dropped edge is not essential, but to call it a flaw is incorrect. On some knives it is improperly done, but not all.

Generalizations have no place in knife design or critique, IMO.
 
I guess so Anthony. The dropped edges I have seen from many makers allow for the index finger to have ready access to the cutting edge.
Possibly, the definition of radiused heel means something different to me.

If I have it wrong then I'll apologize.I can only go by the knives I have seen and handled. Can you show me a good example of the radiused edge? I own a Randall that lets the finger right slide right into the edge. Knives that sport a dropped edge are dangerous.This is not a generaliztion.

Do you have any information or experience that supports the idea that the dropped edge has a specific function? This has been and remains my question.

From a makers stand point I am willing to hear all information on the subject so I can alter my designs for optimum performance. If anybody can show me the the dropped edge is better I am ready to change my thinking. All that matters to me is making the best blade possible.

shane
 
Here is one. Notice how the blade at the junction of the choil and ricasso is rounded. With your finger wrapped around the choil it would be near impossible to hurt yourself if you slip since the dropped edge acts as a guard.

Knife is by Fitch.
 

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I use a dropped edge. I use it for the main purpose of the way I use a knife the dropped edge does help my finger from getting onto the blade. I have forged knives that had no choil dropped down. Those are the ones I cut myself as I had nothing to brace against. This is why I make the knives the way I do. I have hunted and used my knives in the field for many years now. I have taken live animials with my knives with a drop down choil. When I stuck a pig to the hilt it did not hang. Instead it had a good deal size larger hole than the knife blade measured as live flesh will open right up.
I have sold knives to men in combat situations. I have people use my knives in acts of self defense. When they come back and order again, then it must work.
I have worked and experimented with my knives to where I like them at this point in my career. However I will continue to play and see what I come up with, as there may be something better that I have just not discovered and I will always be open to new ideals and try it out.
jf
 
Shane: Some collectors have started etching blades they have purchased to learn all they can about their knives. I am told the results are very revealing, some blades are not hardened to the end of the edge, the hard line falls short of the 'choil'. Others have very shallow hardened edges, etc. This may be a factor that influences your question.

For those who are interested in functional knives, the simple and readily available process of etching polished blades is an honest and reliable test that helps reveal what lies below the polish.
 
Hey all,

While the dropped edge may be called for in certain designs, IMO, it can be considered a flaw in others. It's important though that some of the makers who have posted have spent a lot of time on their design of the dropped edge to combat any inherent shortcomings.

With enough ricasso, and a good guard, I don't see how your finger would be in much danger, with or without a dropped egde.

Much more important, at least in my mind, is the steel and how well it's been heat treated. Etching will allow you to plainly see the results of your methods and is a good way to help you master your techniques. This is important on using and even art knives. While a polished blade on an art knife might never be put to use, IMO, the maker's ability to control the steel is the most important aspect in the art of knifemaking. Not just how well he can work with exotic materials, or embellish his work, it's the steel itself that is most important.

-Jose
 
Thats true but if we all agreed then this thread would have been short and would have never generated so much interest.

I was actually trying to be funny about the etch comment since it made me think about several of my first blades that had crummy finishes, and I would try different ratios of etchant before destroying it.

As with most anything in life, there are differences in opinions and tastes. This thread shows many sides and strong opinions. I think the only faults are those persons who make generalizations about one style/design/steel/etc being superior to all others. These are close minded and ignorant statements. They are a disservice to customers who actually believe the hype as well as other makers who may have to deal with this customer in the future.

I think theres little left for discussion on this topic as far as the dropped edge goes. It needs to take on a new angle.
 
Jose, This was one of things I have been thinking about, and your comment about overcoming the shortcomings of a specific design.
I guess it is better in the form of a question...

Is it necessary to alter the area of hardness in a dropped edge blade
so that it will not fail when flexed? I see many "temper" lines that fall short of the ricasso. Why is this? If it is necessary to harden a blade in this manner then that would mean that the heat treating did not affect the entire edge.

Etching will not hide a terrible finish. PERIOD! If anything it will
reveal poor quality.

A lot of my posts have been stirring some deep tensions amongst the makers who come here. I want to clarify why I am asking these questions. It is not just to raise hell.

I chose this craft, or it chose me. My dream is to become a full time maker in a few years. The only way I can do this is if I take this time to learn how to build the highest quality knife possble. More importantly I have a wife and a month old daughter who are counting on me to get it right. The best way I know how to do this is to examine everything that pertains to a high performance blade. And be able to prove the quality to customer, collectors and peers. Otherwise, I will never be able to hold the title of Journeyman or Master. In a way lives do depend on the quality of my knives. SO I will ask the hard questions, with the right motivation, and hope that all who are patient enough with me will understand my dedication to the knife as a tool.

If I can figure out how to do it I will include a picture of the first knife I ever sold. Then everybody can have a chance to rip on me for a change.

Jerry, I enjoyed the ideas on your last post. If you e-mail me some specs for a knife that is designed to hunt pigs with, I will build it and include it as one of my test blades for journeyman. Thyat's the best way I know to understand somebody else's thoughts.Maybe when it is finished, and has been judged, you could take it with you on a hunt and tell me how it performed and give an honest evaluation of my skills.

shane
 
jbgatlin: Etching will not hide scratches, if anything it will reveal scratches you did not know existed. The etch also reveals faults in steel that exist for reasons beyond the technique of the bladesmitrh such as chemical migrations. Those who etch their blades will know immediately some of the consequences of their heat treating techniques, those who never etch can only guess.

Strong statements encourage those who debate to explore issues that otherwise might well go unquestioned. When those of us who make knives seek to create tools some may one day need we owe it to our clients to provide the most knowledgable and well developed tool we can make.

The distinctions between tradition, art and function can never be debated too extensively, understanding the differences realistically is an honorable goal.
 
Jerry,

I had to go back and read your post again. Did you kill a boar, with tusks, using only a knife? Damn, you must have a brass pair, no wonder Fitch didn't give you any trouble...:D

Brett,

I think theres little left for discussion on this topic as far as the dropped edge goes. It needs to take on a new angle.
Click to expand...

It didn't take very long for us to agree on something!:D You made some good points in your post. I guess it's possible for two people to read the same results but not agree on what it means.

I wonder if you noticed that any scratches in your blades were more pronounced once you etched them, maybe with a weaker etch?

Shane,

I don't think I have the answer to your question, but I have had similar thoughts. It seems logical to me that if the edge is hardened to the ricasso, you're placing the transitional zone on a weaker area of the blade, than if you hardened into the ricasso. I've wondered if it's done because of the differences in specific heat treating methods, but it might be done for another reason. Maybe some of the makers will chime in?

I do have a quick question for anyone who can answer it for me. Does the traditional Japanese clay/water quench produce the different colors of steel directly? Are the blades etched, or is it the traditional polish that produces such a dramatic contrast?

-Jose
 
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