Functional knives?

Dear Mr. Fisk,
I am flattered that you remebered me. That's a pretty good description of me..."mountain in overalls..." Can I use that in my brochure? LOL. It might read something like this, "Shane Justice is a big man with a hammer. He was once described by Master Smith Jerry Fisk as,'a mountain in overalls'." Pretty good, huh? Although from what I hear John Fitch might shade me by just a touch. 'Cept he don't wear no overalls! HA!

I appreciate your candid answer to my question. It made sense. And I am greatly relieved by your words. Making the trip to the blade school was quite an experience. There were guys from every different experience level.And there were knives of every possible configuration. There was little bitty ones, and great big ones, and straight ones, and even a few that curled around like a bannana! Some of the guys were doing a good job of dropping the edge.To be honest I had never tried it, but once I changed to a small square faced hammer it got easier.

There was one day after lunch we were all setting there in the AC, shooting the breeze when the subject of all those "interesting" blades came up.One of the fellas had a real neat way of forging these knives a Klingon would be proud of. My only question was "What are you going to use it for?" At that point things got quiet. It wasn't a criticism, just a question. I do believe there is a place for all those great styles, Gill Hibben and Virgil England have made the whole world go OOOOH and AHHHHH from time to time. But I grew up in the North Country working on ranches and tramping around in the woods. If I can summarize my thought there is a fine line between art and practicality. (Stating the obvious) And there are also times when the "frugality of function" crosses into the artistic realm. However, when it comes to a pratical design, Bells and Whistles Be Damned! Form and function are the only rule. Then again I am not a Master Smith. I have the luxury of making the simple knives my experience level dictates.

One thing I did notice that is kind of weird. Did anybody notice that even the manufacturers are now grinding there knives with a dropped egdge! What's the deal?

Ok fellas, gotta go!

shane
 
Jose
For my JS test I tested under Bagwell, both times. For my MS under Moran, luckily I got it right first time on that one. When I tested for my JS my knife broke due to grain growth resulting from poor forging practices. So, I worked, tested, worked and tested more to learn to do better next time. I still do that.

Shane
Yeah, the school has been good for a lot of folks and has given our business a good boost. We do not tell the teachers how or what to teach when it comes to forging. If we did then we would be having one method taught and that is not good.

Speaking of Virgil England. My personal thoughts is that is may quite well be the most talented knife maker in the country. He does it all. Stock removal, forging, carving, stone setting. Whatever it takes he can do it. He built a approx 15 pound trip hammer out of a jack hammer that positions right over his anvil to forge with. While staying at my house one time he and I thought up and drew the rough sketches of several pieces that he later made. Would I make one of them myself? No. However I really admire his lines and the work that goes into it.
You have the right attitude about your work just keep on moving big boy.
jf
 
Shane; you better watch that Fisk guy. Next thing you know he'll have you dressed up in a chicken suit. I don't think dropped edges are a new thing. I think for a lot of years knife manuractuers made the cheapest, easiest, style possible. The huge influence of handmade/forged blades have impacted the knife companies in a positive way. They are making the style of knives; whatever that type may be; that knowledgable knife buyers demand. The dropped edge has a very long history among well made knives. This does not mean that 100 percent of these knives did, but a vast majority of: Sheffield and English style knives had a heel. Scagels had a drop that would seem to be very awkward in use; but have been spoken well of by many of the past greats of knifemakeing.Rudy Ruana, who dropped his edges is well thought of as real user blades. Randall knives, a legend in the business; most have dropped edges. Marbles; the knife that shaped makers styles even today; had a smaller but very distinct dropped edge on many of its models. I got long winded there for a little, but the point is that the dropped edge is not something that the new guys, lazy guys, artsy guys, or ABS guys just started doing. Is it better than a straight bottomed knife? I don't think so. Is it worse than a knife without a heel. I don't think so. We all like what we like. The Good Lord made brunettes and blondes. Knifemakers make pretty knives; knifemakers make ugly knives. It is when you point the finger at the other guy and denigrate his work that you must do a reality check on your own motives. mike
 
Jerry,

I'm surprised to hear you failed your JS test the first time, but I guess that's the purpose of the tests. The MS stamp wouldn't mean much if it was easy to obtain. Did Moran give you a hard time during your test? If he did you can at least say that you're just keeping a tradition alive...:D

Mike,

First of all, I want to be clear that I don't mean to denigrate anyone's work. It's my opinion, that on a using knife, a dropped edge can get in the way. Bailey gave a few reasons why he likes to use them, that's his perogative. I still think he's very talented and I enjoy looking at his work. That doesn't mean that every maker that's forging their blades with dropped edges has given it as much thought. It might be that they do it because it has a natural tedency to form during the forging process, or because that's the way they were taught. There's nothing wrong with asking "why?" and opening the subject to discussion.

-Jose
 
Jose; absolutely nothing wrong with opening a discussion. When gentlemen can disagree with some class, it reflects well on our profession. I didn't think you were knocking anyones work. My post could probably have been better worded. A statement, however nicely put or however delicately infered; that something is superior leaves everything else as inferior. Collectors and clients are allowed. When a knifemaker makes these claims is another matter. Saying my blade,my designs, my techniques, my processes, etc., etc., etc.,is superior is kinda like claiming the surface of Jupitor is covered in mastadon ivory. Nobody may believe me on either fact, but I challenge anyone to PROVE either one false. Sounds rediculous, but if I state it long enough and loud enough some fool will believe it. Grandpa always told me when I was little" boy; if your tootin' your own horn, you ain't got much of a band". By the way, while we're talking about testing for ABS ratings; I failed my first JS test. Jerry Fisk is not known for slack. I learned far more from that failure than I would have learned if I had passed. Really a great thread. mike
 
Mike, There never has or ever will be a chicken suit big enough for me!HA!

I appreciate all of the opinions expressed on this thread.

It seems like there might even be a difference of opinion based on geography. Could it be that we use knives different in the north and west than folks in the south and east.

When I lived in TX during my apprenticeship, me and the fellas were driving home one night, when a creature jumped in front of the truck.
It had a big white tail and was sort of hop-running across the road.
We were all a little startled, as it was late and we were all dozing a bit. I says to the boys, "Damn that was a BIG dog!" And one of the boys says "Yup!" And the other fella says, "Only it had horns."
So we turned around and had us a look, and sure enough that dog did have horns. JEEZ it was one of them teenie TX Whitetails. The next week the boss's brother come by with a little lunch size coole. He asked if I wanted some venison, so I says, "WHy shore!" SO up he opens yon cooler and inside there's about three little packages of hamburger and he gives me one. I says thanks, but whar's the rest of it, and he says that's it right thar!
Well now, my first year back in the North country I took up a gun to fill the freezer. Last day of the season and I had me a ruttin' buck in the sights and blasted away. He dumped on the ground at my one shot. Five on both sides he was. 21 inches from crown to tip of first beam. A big boy by anybody's book. It took four of us to load him dressed out. He topped the scale at 260. On the hoof considerable more. Now my point is maybe knives need to be different sometimes. But it's just a thought.

Anyway, it was a good story and true.

To Jerry and Mike, thanks for the good thread. Unfortunatley I won't be in Atlanta this year with knives. My little daughter was born in April and she pretty much has all my attention. Next year my knives will be there. And Jerry each one will be of a different style.)Thanks for the tip!

Alrightee then!

shane
 
A dropped edge can be sharp and hang up on everything OR it can be radiused and work through most any cutting task with ease.

To say a dropped edge is a design flaw is like saying that sheep horn is unsuitable for a knife handle because it isn't as strong as micarta (or G10, or pakkawood, etc..).

A dropped edge allows use of the blade in a rocking motion without interference from the guard for example on a cutting board or when making camp, a useful feature.

In my opinion, what separates some of the best knifemakers who make hunting/using fixed blades is their conscious design and treatment of this choil area.
 
Mike,

Thanks for the reply, I just wasn't sure who you meant by your last sentence. I think that good design will maximize the potential of your knife, but the foundation of it's performance will be dependant on the maker's ability at working the steel. As far as boastful claims go, it's easy enough to buy one of the maker's knives and see how they hold up. Although, if he's good at telling tall tales, then he'll probably have a few excuses lined up too...:D

Anthony,

It seems to come down to personal preference. Both views have been shared but it doesn't look like many opinions have been changed. I have to disagree somewhat with your example. If you said that sheephorn was too slippery to use as handle material, and I countered that checkering the horn would improve the grip, that would be a more similar comparison.

-Jose
 
Anthony: I guess I am just not as sophisticated as others. I have searched my brain and can't ever remwember having a cutting board in camp, or ever using one for that matter. If you like g-10, micarta, or packawood, fine, enjoy it. For me it is sheep horn, occasionally deer or elk antler for a special reason, but sheep horn is my joy. To me, and the knives I make, I will say it again and again, a dropped edge is a design fault. Some have learned to work around it and do well, that is OK that is what knives are for.

Any maker who has thought out the design qualities of his knives and has a reason for each and every aspect of design is on the ball. All that is needed is that knife maker and client have a thorough meeting of the minds.
 
Ed,
My point was that one makers design flaw is another's "signature".

I know lots of hunters here in the SE who wouldn't be caught dead with a carbon steel knife. For them carbon steel is a "flaw".
Between humidity,blood, salt water and laziness, many of most impressive hunters I know will only settle for stainless.

We have a cutting board in my camp. Makes cutting the vegetables and potatos much easier!
 
I didn't say that they were correct, that is just their perception of what is "good" in a knife based on experience.

Isn't that how we all make decisions?

As for me, I prefer forged carbon, but hey what do I know?
 
Anthony: It would be very easy to slip into the old carbon - stainless - forged - stock removal debate. I have no grudges about any knives, they all have their place. I plan on devoting a lot of time experimenting on all steels in the future, I believe there is room for improvement in all knives. The more individuals participate the greater will be the progress.

This thread was aimed about function, and I am proud of the discussion, I believe it is the first such debate to this extent. As long as the functional attributes of a knife are the result of thought rather than simply copy - or tradition or because someone else or another time liked the knife, we have achieved some progress.

I thank you for sharing your thoughts. Debate is always healthy as long as we seek understanding.
 
Good Morning!

I had a good talk last evening with my friend Rick Baum. Our conversation fell into functinoal knives. It reminded me to
bring up another topic in this respect.

While testing a knife I had been given for Christmas, a Cold Steel Magnum Tanto, I decided to try a penetration test. Not having a spare car door to practice on I used wood. The long and short of it is that I tried a "Hammer fist " blow. Edge outward,tip down. As I slammed it into the wood, my hand jumped the too small "tsuba" and my hand slid down over the edge. It is a peculiar feeling when tendons are severed.$18,000 and 6 moths of therapy later I had %80 use of my right hand. I count myself lucky.

Yes,it was a damn stupid thing to do. I had no business trying a test like that. But I had listened to the "PROOF" and I believed in somebody's product.

I did write to Cold Steel, and mentioned they might consider increasing the guard size on their knives. They said they were sure sorry about my accident and that they do the same test all the time and nobody ever complained and that maybe I should try another brand of knives.

In my own mind a funtional knife should have a guard that guards!

A knife that is meant to be used in the toughest conditions should be designed with safety as a function. For those of us who may have to use a knife with gloves on, a skinny handle does not work. A "hook" sytle butt becomes the rule. Look at the folks in Scandanavia. The traditonal Pukko has a hook butt for this reason. A wide ricasso helps to choke up on a blade when you are deep inside an animal, and cannot see your hands. Anybody who has field dressed big game or beef cattle can attest to the difficulty of indexing a knife by feel. The ricasso helps one to do this . So in fact, does the drop point. A pointy swept tip will cut anything but what you intend. ANd makes a hell of a mess on a relatively simple job. The dropped edge does become a liablity when you are straddled over a fifteen hundred pound moose, with your arm shoulder deep in the chest cavity. If it hangs up you spend a lot of time fighting your knife. The same holds true with beef cattle. I started butchering meat when I was about ten years old. I fought through my share of commercially produced nightmares. No fun at all when you have to struggle with a poorly designed blade. This opinion is based on experience. It does not say that is the only opinion, or the only experience.

If a knife is the only tool you carry. Don't you want it to be able to handle everything you throw at it without any hassles?

I would appreciate hearing anybody elses thoughts on design with regard to their own personal use of their knives.

No disrespect intended,but for me a dropped edge becomes a liablity when lives are on the line.

One of the most popular outdoor knives, ever, does not have a dropped edge. I am speaking of course of that wonderful Canadian Grohmann Knife! It is a great example of a knife designed for use in a specific environment.

All the Best!

shane
 
One of the most popular outdoor knives, ever, does not have a dropped edge. I am speaking of course of that wonderful Canadian Grohmann Knife! It is a great example of a knife designed for use in a specific environment
Click to expand...

And it has absolutely NO guard either, so make up your mind :)
 
Shane's post reminded me of an accident that I had with a trailing point hunting knife. I was up to both biceps inside the chest cavity of a 300 lb. mule deer attempting to cut the wind pipe... guess what the tip cut first? Yep, it bit my left index finger. Nothing requiring stitches. But, I guess technically, me and that deer are blood brothers now. The reason that this happened is because I was used to drop point blades on my hunting knives. For some reason I decided that it would be a good idea to try something new in the form of a trailing point knife. IMHO, I feel like the dropped point helps the knife to become more of a natural extension of a person's hand when used in a "choking up" hold with the index finger on the blade spine. At least in a blind situation anyway.

Anthony: Just curious... The people you mentioned that bring a cutting board to camp, do they also bring a kitchen knife that is designed to be used with a cutting board? Seems like if they're bringing one they could easily bring the other. Then their hunting knives could be left to accomplish the tasks that they are designed for. We can never design a knife that will be perfect for all chores, but with enough forethought, we can design them to accomplish a variety of tasks with a reasonable degree of function and safety built in.

Rick
 
Shane and Rick,

Good posts, those are all good reasons for those aspects of design.

Anthony: Just curious... The people you mentioned that bring a cutting board to camp, do they also bring a kitchen knife that is designed to be used with a cutting board? Seems like if they're bringing one they could easily bring the other. Then their hunting knives could be left to accomplish the tasks that they are designed for. We can never design a knife that will be perfect for all chores, but with enough forethought, we can design them to accomplish a variety of tasks with a reasonable degree of function and safety built in.
Click to expand...

Rick, I had the same thoughts. There are specialized designs that will call for a dropped edge.

-Jose
 
A cutting board is not always available, but when it is available it is nice to be able to have a general purpose knife, on the belt that works well for various tasks. When I am in the woods, I like to carry a multi-tool and nice size hunting knife that can double as a butcher/filet/veggie knife.

Rick, I had the same thoughts. There are specialized designs that will call for a dropped edge.
Click to expand...

Actually, most general purpose designs have dropped edges.
Almost all serious working knives do also (kitchen, butcher, and skinning knives). Most combat and hunting knives with a "working" choil also generally have dropped edges. A choil is useless IMO unless there is a meaningful shelf created by a dropped edge to protect the index finger in case of a slip. Loveless would probably disagree here since he incorporated neither in his designs, regarding the choil only as a sharpening convenience.

It is hard to put a "working" choil on a small knife since a choil takes up enough room for a man-size finger to rest and that takes up sharpened edge. Sometimes a compromise must be made.
 
Anthony,

Yes, I meant that some designs will specifically require a dropped edge. Such as a kitchen knife so that you can quickly dice your veggies on a cutting board.

A choil is useless IMO unless there is a meaningful shelf created by a dropped edge to protect the index finger in case of a slip.
Click to expand...

orig.jpg


A properly executed guard will allow you to place a finger on the ricasso without the possibility of your fingers coming into contact with the blade. A ledge on the choil would only contribute to the knife getting hung up, the main argument against using one in the first place.

Your statement also reminds me of another feature we mostly see on fighters, the sub-hilt. Do they really serve a practical purpose? Even without using the ricasso, a finger groove, like the one pictured above, will serve the same function. IMO, it's another feature that we see more for art than function.

Now, I haven't done any tests or read any data, so I can't really compare the strength of sheephorn to micarta or g10, but if it made it through the mating season intact, I'm willing to bet it'll stand up under pressure. The knife pictured can easily crack walnuts. No, I didn't mean yours! OK, maybe I did...:D

It takes a lot of skill to integrate natural materials into your work and can be a great opportunity for you to express yourself artistically. This Piece by Don Fogg and Murad Sayen, with a fossil ivory handle, is a perfect example.

orig.jpg


And here's one by Jerry Fisk and Guy Shaw that uses an ancient artifact for the handle.

orig.jpg


If you ever get a chance to examine a sheephorn handle you may be able to appreciate the colors and textures they contain.

-Jose
 
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