I don't denounce people who like them. I don't agree with them, I may not understand it, but I don't. I denounce people who try to sell a load of crud saying a spade isn't a spade. Anyone who looks at that knife and says it's not a ripoff isn't being honest and I don't want to read their excuses. Anytime there is a thread on these knives someone is going to say it's a ripoff...well it is...so own up to it, stop making excuses, and instead of trying to defend that talk about the review.
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Ganzo G720-B first impressions
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rje58
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I was just making a general comment that applies to many different situations - not just to this thread or even just to knives or even as broad a category as commerce.
I hope to not get too much deeper into the fine details, but I do have two more general comments:
1. I am unaware of any sales or intent to sell or market in this thread.
2. It seems inconsistent to me that you can draw such fine distinctions in some cases, but still seem almost oblivious to the distinction between a clone and a counterfeit. Even if you believe them both to be morally wrong, surely you allow for distinctions and shades of gray? Is murder no worse than stealing a car? Stealing a car no worse than stealing a loaf of bread? Stealing a loaf of bread no worse than going 5 miles over the speed limit?
All of my examples are violations of law but my position is that some are certainly worse than others and that none should be painted with a broader brush than merely that: all are violations of law.
It seems very disingenuous to me to attempt to make them all as morally unacceptable as the next.
I hope to not get too much deeper into the fine details, but I do have two more general comments:
1. I am unaware of any sales or intent to sell or market in this thread.
2. It seems inconsistent to me that you can draw such fine distinctions in some cases, but still seem almost oblivious to the distinction between a clone and a counterfeit. Even if you believe them both to be morally wrong, surely you allow for distinctions and shades of gray? Is murder no worse than stealing a car? Stealing a car no worse than stealing a loaf of bread? Stealing a loaf of bread no worse than going 5 miles over the speed limit?
All of my examples are violations of law but my position is that some are certainly worse than others and that none should be painted with a broader brush than merely that: all are violations of law.
It seems very disingenuous to me to attempt to make them all as morally unacceptable as the next.
Sounds like a fair post, but if that was directed to me I'm not sure what distinctions I've made. My personal opinion is if something is stealing American ideas or jobs I don't agree with it. If it's legal people are free to do what they want, but I will never agree with with what that company is doing or the impact it has. It probably hits too close to home, but I just never will. That doesn't mean I look down on people who do, but I don't want to hear excuses for what that company is doing. I think we've all made our points, so I'm done if everyone else is.
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rje58
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Thank you for your reply. I don't want to draw my comments out unnecessarily, but I want to clarify what I meant regarding distinctions.
Just as you wish others to acknowledge that it is not right to copy someone else's design without permission and renumeration (clone-style knives), just as you want them to acknowledge that stealing someone else's design, brand name, documenting material and other attributes with the intent of deceiving someone into purchasing an inferior product that is an out-and-out lie and a sham (outright counterfeit knives)......
... are you not willing to acknowledge? - or do you not believe? - that "cloning" someone else's design and selling it under an entirely different brand name, with absolutely no intent at deception, and selling that lesser product at a cheaper price - is "just as wrong" as outright counterfeiting someone's design? and stealing their very name brand and trademark, copying their documents and their packaging and charging the full price or close to market price for that same inferior product?
If we can agree that both acts are questionable - is one no worse than the other? The first seems to me to be at worst a civil matter, and while it may infringe upon certain commercial, property and intellectual rights of some, certainly does not rise to anywhere near the same level as the outright criminal fraud perpetrated in the second case, which should be universally condemned by all - and criminal charges brought and proscecuted to the fullest.
Just as you wish others to acknowledge that it is not right to copy someone else's design without permission and renumeration (clone-style knives), just as you want them to acknowledge that stealing someone else's design, brand name, documenting material and other attributes with the intent of deceiving someone into purchasing an inferior product that is an out-and-out lie and a sham (outright counterfeit knives)......
... are you not willing to acknowledge? - or do you not believe? - that "cloning" someone else's design and selling it under an entirely different brand name, with absolutely no intent at deception, and selling that lesser product at a cheaper price - is "just as wrong" as outright counterfeiting someone's design? and stealing their very name brand and trademark, copying their documents and their packaging and charging the full price or close to market price for that same inferior product?
If we can agree that both acts are questionable - is one no worse than the other? The first seems to me to be at worst a civil matter, and while it may infringe upon certain commercial, property and intellectual rights of some, certainly does not rise to anywhere near the same level as the outright criminal fraud perpetrated in the second case, which should be universally condemned by all - and criminal charges brought and proscecuted to the fullest.
I really don't want to talk about it more, but don't want to be rude either and ignore your question. Using ESEE again as an example some companies are stealing the ESEE design and putting their own name on it, while others are stealing the design and putting the ESEE name on it. Sure, trying to trick someone is worse, but that in no way excuses the company who steals the design and calls it their own either. At the end of the day both hurt ESEE sales and American jobs. There is a reason ESEE has an entire page on their site dedicated to copies and counterfeits. I'm sure some of it is Jeff looking out for consumers, but it also hurts company profits and impacts the people who work for him.
I don't see how that Ganzo in the OP is any different than what is going on ESEE in the example above with the exception it impacts two companies worth of workers. People may not spend the money on a Benchmade because they get an Axis clone for $30. They probably won't spend the money for a Lion because they have the same design for a lot less. Again, that's two companies worth of workers losing money because a company over seas has no problem stealing their ideas and selling them to people living here.
They aren't just selling them in China they are turning around and selling them to American consumers. Even past the companies who designed the knives they are taking profits away from those who sell the legitimate knives like the sponsors of this forum. I keep saying it, but if people want to buy them that's fine, if they want to talk and review them that's fine, but stop giving legal reasons or splitting hairs for why it's not wrong. I'm sorry, but it's taking food out of American mouths and just isn't right in my opinion.
I don't see how that Ganzo in the OP is any different than what is going on ESEE in the example above with the exception it impacts two companies worth of workers. People may not spend the money on a Benchmade because they get an Axis clone for $30. They probably won't spend the money for a Lion because they have the same design for a lot less. Again, that's two companies worth of workers losing money because a company over seas has no problem stealing their ideas and selling them to people living here.
They aren't just selling them in China they are turning around and selling them to American consumers. Even past the companies who designed the knives they are taking profits away from those who sell the legitimate knives like the sponsors of this forum. I keep saying it, but if people want to buy them that's fine, if they want to talk and review them that's fine, but stop giving legal reasons or splitting hairs for why it's not wrong. I'm sorry, but it's taking food out of American mouths and just isn't right in my opinion.
rje58
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This is what I mean by not understanding your distinctions.
You refer to counterfeiting - outright fraud - intentional deception - with one line as merely "trying to trick someone" - kudos to you for including, "is worse".
My perception is that you are making cloning sound like the greater evil - while at the same time admitting that "trying to trick someone is worse".
Two paragraphs spelling out the evils of cloning and one line stating counterfeiting and outright fraud - that is to say, "trying to trick someone" - is worse.
I'm not excusing cloning, I do however feel strongly that it is not nearly the same class of moral, legal or ethical evil as counterfeiting and outright fraud.
At this point, I agree that we should agree to disagree. Thank you for an interesting conversation and perspective.
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Agreed. No need to continue. There are forums out there dedicated to this type of crap, if you can read Chinese I'm sure those interested can participate.
Spark took a stance on this topic years ago, and as far as I know he hasn't changed his mind on clones, knock offs, counterfeits, or "homage" knife like objects made from pot metal, fence posts, bicycle frames, and other assorted non metal objects.
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