Gaucho knives and cuchillos criollos of South America

[kamagong]

Thanks for the tip CelloDan . Any idea how long to boil?

 

[CelloDan]

Thanks for the tip CelloDan . Any idea how long to boil?

I don’t know.
If I was to try this I would dip just the handle in a pot of very hot water, pommel down holding it by the taped up blade using gloves.
After two or three minutes I would try twisting the handle around the tang to check how soft the resin feels and I’d repeat that until the resin softens up nicely then align everything and let it cool.

Any suggestions T Trubetzkoy ?

 

[kamagong]

I don’t know.
If I was to try this I would dip just the handle in a pot of very hot water, pommel down holding it by the taped up blade using gloves.
After two or three minutes I would try twisting the handle around the tang to check how soft the resin feels and I’d repeat that until the resin softens up nicely then align everything and let it cool.

Any suggestions T Trubetzkoy ?

Good thing I asked. I would've held the blade using my bare hands.

 

[CelloDan]

Good thing I asked. I would've held the blade using my bare hands.

LOL Christian

Oh man, I just finished watching a video about the traditional Argentine "Asado" that has my mouth watering
It does not help that I am cutting calories these days to shed a few pounds.
The hunger pains are real lol !

This video shows the traditional Argentine asado being prepared in Buenos Aires to share with Aaron Franklin, a famous Texan who is one of the most recognized names in barbecue, restaurant owner and author of best selling books.

The video is in Spanish for the first few minutes but then switches to English when the host welcomes Aaron as he arrives
Worth watching if you love meat on the grill

 

[Trubetzkoy]

kamagong and CelloDan , the first thing I'd ask is if the handle has any actual play, as opposed to there merely being a gap between the handle and the bolster. If there's play, simply melting and redistributing the wax or resin should help, without the need to actually shift the handle itself. If it's the gap you want to fix, you'd definitely need to shift the handle, but that can get tricky because the issue could also be caused (or worsened) by a crooked tang, an uneven top of the handle, etc.

As for ways to melt the content of the handle, the first thing to try to figure out is whether it's wax or a harder resin. In Argentinian knives, I've seen both the traditional red wax (lacre) and a rosin-based cutler's cement, which I believe is harder to melt and move around (though I tell you this only from anecdotal experience). Either way, you could certainly try using boiling water, but personally I'm not a big fan of this idea. First off, even if you use tape to cover the blade, some steam might make its way to it and rust it, since you'd definitely need to let it sit for a good couple minutes. In fact, the tape might even make things worse, since you might end up with horizontal rust marks in the blade where the steam squeezed by.

Other options would be to use something like a heat gun or even a flame, though I'd be careful not to apply so much heat that you end up melting the solder. This is unlikely, since usually very hard and high-temp solders are used for this, but it's definitely something to keep in mind. Also, needless to say, make sure to use gloves to twist and reaccommodate the handle, since it'll be hot . You could also place the knife in the oven (on a metal tray in case the wax or resin leaks out) at a low temp while keeping an eye on it; this should not affect the heat treatment of the blade. Regardless of the method you choose, you'd want to hold the knife in a way such that as much wax or resin as possible sits at the top of the handle, where it meets the bolster, since that's where most of the play will be generated. Then, you can use acetone to clean any leaked content.

One final remark about peening. Though I think I was the one that mentioned this method at some point, this is something that I'd do only after heating up the handle a bit, so the wax or resin is not fully hardened. Otherwise, the wax or resin solidified around the tang of the knife will create resistance, increasing the chances of denting the handle and also of the resin inside breaking and losing its effectiveness.

 

[kamagong]

T Trubetzkoy the handle has actual play. There is approximately a 1.5 mm gap between the handle and bolster. I can make the gap disappear by pushing the blade and handle together.

I think the handle is filled with lacre as I see a bit of red around the tang (not rust). I'm going to go with the low temperature oven method. I'll wait until the summer though before doing anything. I'm going to leave the knife in my car on a hot day. Maybe 2 or 3 hours at 200 °F will be enough to soften the lacre.

 

[Trubetzkoy]

T Trubetzkoy the handle has actual play. There is approximately a 1.5 mm gap between the handle and bolster. I can make the gap disappear by pushing the blade and handle together.

I think the handle is filled with lacre as I see a bit of red around the tang (not rust). I'm going to go with the low temperature oven method. I'll wait until the summer though before doing anything. I'm going to leave the knife in my car on a hot day. Maybe 2 or 3 hours at 200 °F will be enough to soften the lacre.

To be honest, I don't think you'll be able to move enough wax with the car method. Why not try something like a heat gun, or even a hair dryer? Hell, even a lighter might help. That way you can hold the knife in the desired position to make the wax move with gravity. You can also cover the blade with tape to make any leak less messy.

(Back to the boiling method, another drawback that I forgot to mention is that water can make its way into the handle and rust the tang, and you'll never see that. This can be especially bad if there are gaps in how the wax set in, as in your case.)

 

[kamagong]

To be honest, I don't think you'll be able to move enough wax with the car method. Why not try something like a heat gun, or even a hair dryer? Hell, even a lighter might help. That way you can hold the knife in the desired position to make the wax move with gravity. You can also cover the blade with tape to make any leak less messy.

(Back to the boiling method, another drawback that I forgot to mention is that water can make its way into the handle and rust the tang, and you'll never see that. This can be especially bad if there are gaps in how the wax set in, as in your case.)

I figured as much, but I want to wait unti the summer anyways. It's still a bit cool here. I figure if I leave the knife in a hot car for a couple of hours then, the environment will start the process and can minimize the time I have to hit the handle with my creme brulee heat gun.

 

[screened porch]

I finally got this book out of my "save for later" cart.
With a small knife because it's a tiny book.

 

[screened porch]

That didn't take long to read. Though I confess I skipped the bios of the two highly credentialled editors.

The only living maestro, in his 2017 interview, has some interesting departures in nomenclature and practice from what we've been reading elsewhere, but he's a 21st century medical doctor and not a 19th century saddle tramp.
The verijero is carried on the left side in front (or in the boot).
The criolla can be as big as a facon but the facon is reserved for fighting. No mention of the punal. The older sources in the book say one big knife was used for everything.
If we went back in time for a consistent nomenclature from the 19th century saddle tramps, we'd probably be disappointed anyway.

Interesting his knife art was called visteo because it's all about the blinkless gaze.
Moderns prefer to call the art esgrima criolla because they want to pretend it's indigenous.

 

[kamagong]

Daughter is on Spring Break this week, so we took the opportunity to visit some schools with her. Give her an idea of what is out there.

She might be one of the few gauchos in this thread.

 

[CelloDan]

That didn't take long to read.

Nice Jer, I just pulled mine out to re read it. I am slow reader so it's going to take a little longer lol. I'll also skip the editors bios this time
I have seen the word "Visteo" used as it pertains to the gauchos knife fighting "art".
The word denotes in my mind a friendly "show" of knife fighting skills.

Wikipedia in Spanish describes as as this ( roughly translated ):
"Vistear or visteo is a friendly style of gaucho fencing, typical of the Argentine countryside. It consists of a friendly settlement of a dispute. Instead of the final outcome being "to the death" as in a dagger or knife duel, the game consisted of wielding a sooty stick, which is nothing more than a half-burned piece of wood, and "painting" the opponent's face or some vital part of their body to demonstrate the supremacy of one of the contestants in the dispute.
This action has sometimes been called "echar una visteada" The name of this sport comes from the fact that the gauchos must very quickly predict their opponent's movements with their eyes."

Daughter is on Spring Break this week, so we took the opportunity to visit some schools with her. Give her an idea of what is out there.

She might be one of the few gauchos in this thread.

All the best to your daughter in choosing her new academic institution Christian. They sure do grow up fast. I still can not get used to our empty nest !
Now I know about UC Santa Barbara and their "Gauchos" basketball team

Gauchos used to play the game of "Pato" ( with a live duck ) It's sort of basketball on horseback.
Still played to this day ( not with a live duck though )

Interesting to note that "Pato" is the national Argentine sport and NOT soccer
"President Juan Perón declared pato to be Argentina's national game in 1953" as per wikipedia

I wonder what the GOAT thinks about that LOL

 

[screened porch]

Nice Jer, I just pulled mine out to re read it. I am slow reader so it's going to take a little longer lol. I'll also skip the editors bios this time
I have seen the word "Visteo" used as it pertains to the gauchos knife fighting "art".
The word denotes in my mind a friendly "show" of knife fighting skills.

Wikipedia in Spanish describes as as this ( roughly translated ):
"Vistear or visteo is a friendly style of gaucho fencing, typical of the Argentine countryside. It consists of a friendly settlement of a dispute. Instead of the final outcome being "to the death" as in a dagger or knife duel, the game consisted of wielding a sooty stick, which is nothing more than a half-burned piece of wood, and "painting" the opponent's face or some vital part of their body to demonstrate the supremacy of one of the contestants in the dispute.
This action has sometimes been called "echar una visteada" The name of this sport comes from the fact that the gauchos must very quickly predict their opponent's movements with their eyes."



All the best to your daughter in choosing her new academic institution Christian. They sure do grow up fast. I still can not get used to our empty nest !
Now I know about UC Santa Barbara and their "Gauchos" basketball team

Gauchos used to play the game of "Pato" ( with a live duck ) It's sort of basketball on horseback.
Still played to this day ( not with a live duck though )

Interesting to note that "Pato" is the national Argentine sport and NOT soccer
"President Juan Perón declared pato to be Argentina's national game in 1953" as per wikipedia

I wonder what the GOAT thinks about that LOL

Interesting about the two meanings of visteo. I don't think the maestro was kidding.
Pato looks like a challenging sport. Especially with a live duck to throw into a fishing net.

Here's my Who-ca with by biggest quasi-cuchilla campo:

I'm told the big one is a U.S. military cooks' knife from when wooden handles were retired in favor of plastic. (It isn't marked.)

 

[Trubetzkoy]

I told myself I wouldn't get more post-WW2 gaucho knives, since I'm primarily interested in antiques, but I found this Eberle for a bargain price and had to go for it:

With the inox. blade and the absence of a logo on the scabbard hook, it's gotta be from around the 70s. Still, besides being in pretty good condition, it comes with scabbard and handle patterns that I didn't have in my collection (including perhaps my favorite Eberle scabbard pattern, dois cachorros 'two pups') and a longer (7") and wider (1 1/10") blade than that of your average Eberle. I also didn't have any etched gaucho knives in my collection, though, much like Jer, I don't really care for these gauchesque sceneries.

Here's a pic with my other Eberles (only the one in the middle having a carbon steel blade and thus probably being pre-1950):

 

[screened porch]

with scabbard and handle patterns that I didn't have in my collection (including perhaps my favorite Eberle scabbard pattern, dois cachorros 'two pups') and a longer (7") and wider (1 1/10") blade than that of your average Eberle.

That looks like a rare treasure to me. I have two seven-inchers, but they're both 3/4" wide, and I've certainly never seen those flying lions!
My favorite Eberles:

I've never seen a carbon one, either.

 

[Trubetzkoy]

That looks like a rare treasure to me. I have two seven-inchers, but they're both 3/4" wide, and I've certainly never seen those flying lions!

Piteira (the continuation of Eberle, whose bugle trademark was precisely called piteira) still sells this pattern, but with another handle (which I believe to be Eberle's first handle pattern and I happen to like even more): https://www.piteira1908.com.br/loja/faca-2-cachorros-prateada-com-bainha/

I forgot to mention, mine came with a presentation box marked "Masson":

Edit: I also recommend checking out this blogspot for more interesting information about Eberle and pictures of vintage/antique examples: https://facasriograndenses.blogspot.com/2013/04/abramo-eberle-cia.html?q=eberle

 

[kamagong]

Here's a pic with my other Eberles (only the one in the middle having a carbon steel blade and thus probably being pre-1950):

They made Eberles with carbon steel blades!?

 

[Trubetzkoy]

They made Eberles with carbon steel blades!?

Up until the 40s, that's all they made... The company is very old indeed.

Edit: Back in the day you'd also find Eberles with Rodgers and, I believe, Scholberg blades, marked with the foreign blade maker as well as their own name etched onto the blade.

There are also examples with other blades, such as Henckels and other German makers, though they were probably put together by other retailers, since Eberle also sold their handles, scabbards, and scabbard fittings separately.

 

[kamagong]

Up until the 40s, that's all they made... The company is very old indeed.

Edit: Back in the day you'd also find Eberles with Rodgers and, I believe, Scholberg blades, marked with the foreign blade maker as well as their own name etched onto the blade.

There are also examples with other blades, such as Henckels and other German makers, though there were probably put together by other retailers, since Eberle also sold their "silverware" (including handles and scabbards) separately.

I wish they still offered their blades with carbon steel. I don't mind stainless on folders, but on big knives make mine with carbon steel.

 

[Trubetzkoy]

Here are a couple more pics of my carbon steel Eberle:

Recently I saw one with a long (8" or 9") Georgian Rodgers Blade on Ebay, etched "Abramo Eberle, Caxias" on the other side. It sold for $500.