GEC - production, dealer practices, availability

[TsarBomba]

I'm a little curious, so I have a question for any of the folks who (like me) are members of official GEC dealer mailing lists and may have witnessed the Charlie Foxtrot of a lolly scramble over the last few days. According to multiple reports, the total availability of these knives barely exceeded two minutes at most, if at all, outlets. But for those of us who "ran the gauntlet" and did what was asked for a chance at handing over our hard-earned money for a knife, just what sort of advance notice were we really offered?

Without going into dealer specifics, here are some details extracted from the sole notification I received:

date: Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 4:31 PM
subject: Charlie Campagna SFO - GEC #14 Lick Creek Barlow

Happy Monday! We have received the new #14 TC Barlow run, and they will be online at 5pm Eastern Time.
- No phone orders (they sell too fast!).
- There are only a few of each.
- Once they disappear, they are sold out.
...
Thanks so much for being our customer, and best of luck you!

For reference, I live in Eastern time.

My thoughts/questions:

This was my first and only notification about the #14s. Is this about commensurate with the initial lead time (under 30 minutes) given to others?

For anyone who received earlier or multiple notifications, were you given any information about blade configurations available or rough estimates of stock counts?

For those of you who were on your dealer of choice's site at the time the knives went on sale, were you able to place an order in a reasonable amount of time after the sale went "live"? I consider a reasonable amount of time to be enough for your average internet user to select a knife finish/handle, place it in the shopping cart, and fill out the necessary sales information. Oh, and of course, clicking the button to finish the sale.

GEC collectors often get upset and respond with hostility to the implication that the GEC short run/SFO culture has fomented a sort of lottery system. This is best exemplified by the recent Esky Zulu jacks, the #15 jacks (not the Navy knives, of which they seem to have massively overestimated the popularity) and the #14 Barlows. I expect we will see something similar later this year with the upcoming #77 run. Given the manufacturer's trajectory towards this short run/SFO-only model, I can see no way that the term "lottery" isn't valid on at least a couple of levels.

Thanks for any information, anecdotes, or opinions you might offer. While I realize it behooves some people for as few buyers as possible to "elbow in" on these short run/SFO sales, I am of the opinion that "more knowledge is better knowledge".

If this is not the place for such a question, mods, please feel free to move it accordingly. I could find no subforum where nonspecific dealer practices should be discussed, at least per the sub descriptions.

 

[STAINLESS90]

As a follower of quite a few companies that use this practice my advice is let it go. I follow a company that sends out an email a few hours before a "drop" with the time and items. When it "drops" there is a mad scramble to pound the refresh page button and get your order put in. Sometimes you make it sometimes you don't one thing you can count on is there will always be someone reselling on the secondary market for at least one and half times the original value. That's how this hobby goes a lot of the time. It all depends on how badly you tell yourself you need the item. Also I believe someone has offered up one of the knives you are looking for at a reasonable amount.

 

[TsarBomba]

As a follower of quite a few companies that use this practice my advice is let it go. I follow a company that sends out an email a few hours before a "drop" with the time and items. When it "drops" there is a mad scramble to pound the refresh page button and get your order put in. Sometimes you make it sometimes you don't one thing you can count on is there will always be someone reselling on the secondary market for at least one and half times the original value. That's how this hobby goes a lot of the time. It all depends on how badly you tell yourself you need the item. Also I believe someone has offered up one of the knives you are looking for at a reasonable amount.

The intent of this thread is to discuss selling practices (in the one place that such practices are allowed to be discussed). If you wish to address a specific instance with me directly then feel free to use the site's email function.

Regarding the "flippers"/catch-and-release behavior, that would be a decent subject for this thread, though I'd hope it remains restricted to general discussion of concepts and not any particular sellers/transactions.

 

[STAINLESS90]

The intent of this thread is to discuss selling practices (in the one place that such practices are allowed to be discussed). If you wish to address a specific instance with me directly then feel free to use the site's email function.

Regarding the "flippers"/catch-and-release behavior, that would be a decent subject for this thread, though I'd hope it remains restricted to general discussion of concepts and not any particular sellers/transactions.

The selling practices are exactly what I am discussing. This is common in the knife, gun, flashlight, and watch community is what I am saying. You create demand by limiting availability. You are also hedging bets that the run will be a failure, if you make 2,000 pieces available and the run is a flop you now are stuck with an overabundance of
product you now have to sell at a loss. It's economics and it's what keeps the business running. As much as we all act saintly and claim we wouldn't do it if it were "our company", it's BS. We would when we realized it made for sure sales and a larger profit per unit. It is part of the community whether we like it or not and I'm sure we could all name ten companies that do it off the top of our heads. My boss told me a very valuable piece of info many years ago "the only reason anyone owns a business is to make money" no matter how good they're customer service, PR campaign, public image, or how many giveaways they do a year it is all a means to an end.

 

[VCM3]

If you don't like what they do when they go about selling them,don't buy them .

 

[AntDog]

If you don't like what they do when they go about selling them,don't buy them .

If he would have scored one, this thread wouldn't exist. He'd be happy as a clam with their practices.

Bottom line is: some will get one, lots will not. Don't let it eat you up. There are far more important things to be butthurt and stressed out over.

 

[VCM3]

If he would have scored one, this thread wouldn't exist. He'd be happy as a clam with their practices.

Bottom line is: some will get one, lots will not. Don't let it eat you up. There are far more important things to be butthurt and stressed out over.

True,I don't see what the big deal is. They make 'em,everyone flips out over them,give a few days & the exchange is flooded with them.

 

[VCM3]

But it's probably the pissing down the leg , but being told it's rain scenario the OP doesn't like. You gotta wise up

 

[ohiobr]

Bought into it with the mad scramble for the Esky Zulu. Managed to snag one and was super thrilled....then I realized I'd just spent an hour of my life hitting the refresh button so I could buy a production knife at near custom prices. Had ample opportunity to buy both the #15 and the #74 and passed because I'm just done with the whole mess now. It's not worth it.

 

[TsarBomba]

The selling practices are exactly what I am discussing. This is common in the knife, gun, flashlight, and watch community is what I am saying. You create demand by limiting availability. You are also hedging bets that the run will be a failure, if you make 2,000 pieces available and the run is a flop you now are stuck with an overabundance of
product you now have to sell at a loss. It's economics and it's what keeps the business running. As much as we all act saintly and claim we wouldn't do it if it were "our company", it's BS. We would when we realized it made for sure sales and a larger profit per unit. It is part of the community whether we like it or not and I'm sure we could all name ten companies that do it off the top of our heads. My boss told me a very valuable piece of info many years ago "the only reason anyone owns a business is to make money" no matter how good they're customer service, PR campaign, public image, or how many giveaways they do a year it is all a means to an end.

Point taken. And if you look at GEC's recent history, their dealers are sitting on what I can only imagine are dozens if not hundreds of unwanted Navy knives. Isn't that only going to push dealers to demand even more short runs and SFOs? In five years, where does that leave people wanting to own a GEC for the love of the knife itself? It can't be healthy for any company in the long term when their products almost exclusively end up in a safe. Look at the vast majority of 'boutique' manufacturers in American history if you need more evidence.

I can promise you neither Queen nor Case are hurting for business either, and yet they don't seem to be trending towards this "exclusively short run/SFO" model. They dabble in that model yet still use a normal production model. Spyderco is the same way. If someone suggested to Sal Glesser that he converts production of the PM2, Delica, Endura and Manix to exclusively short runs you'd probably hear not much but hysterical laughter in reply.

If you don't like what they do when they go about selling them,don't buy them .

I'm pretty sure you tried this "love it or leave it" tactic in another thread regarding a completely different manufacturer and type of knife (and it failed there, too). I'll flip it around on you: If you don't like the subject of the thread, don't post in it.

If he would have scored one, this thread wouldn't exist. He'd be happy as a clam with their practices.

Sure, if you ignore the posts I made regarding the expected run sizes and the resultant lolly scrambles on the 15s and the 47s (which I mentioned in another thread as examples of this behavior). But clearly the dominant belief in this forum is that GEC and their chosen dealers can do no wrong (which is comically wrongheaded in a niche market such as traditional folders), so if those are the blinders you wish to wear then I won't try to stop you.

 

[Jsega51]

Tsar, man o man. Not everything is as concrete as you'd like it to be. GEC doesn't know for sure when the knives will be completed. Dealers don't know for certain when they will get them. They also don't know how many they will get. Not all dealers run a reserve system. Some do, some let you reserve only by email, some just put them on the site. Most notify when the knives will show up for purchase and as you see, that notice isn't always weeks in advance. Some don't put any notice up at all. They leave it to blind luck. I've gotten knives that way many times. Searching when no one else was.

Once a pattern is announced, start looking on the GEC Authorized Dealer's websites. Any that allow you to reserve a knife, will have a notice for it. Email the owners, call them up. There's no secret. There is however many people competing for the same knives. You have to be active and you have to be on top of it. Even then, you can miss out! It happens! If you do your homework, you can get them more often than not.

Like Vince said, there will be some that come up right away for sale on the exchange. Usually the first ones aren't at higher prices either so watch for them.

It sucks missing out but that's the game. It would be really boring if no knife was rare/collectible/one of a kind, etc.

 

[STAINLESS90]

Spyderco does that exact thing with Sprint runs, Benchmade it's gold class, Emerson it's limited runs and emerson collector knives. Like I said everyone does it.

 

[VCM3]

I got no blinders on at all,I'm with you. But the only way for you to get justice is for you not to chase these knives. They do more than what you claim,too. Recently a run of knives was being advertised on facebook using a custom knife makers name & the word's xxx design. This was never asked permission for. So in essence,it goes back to what was said here about going to lengths for profits. It has been said many times when customers are disgruntled,put your buying dollars where you want .

 

[VCM3]

Recently I saw a you tube video I think it was. It was new Benchmade knives out at shot show. So I ask on facebook on a Benchmade group,where do I get a certain model. No answer. I keep looking at dealers for the knife I saw in the video,nothing. No info. Is it secret ? Well,screw that,I'm not chasing it any longer & eventually I may see one & get it. There is a degree of too much info/not enough,that'll have a negative impact on a potential buyer. At least for me. I guess these big Co's rely mainly on the fools that are pickled on the kool aid & not really worrying about new potential buyers & their interest.

 

[Shaggy]

I think we should consider ourselves fortunate that GEC does take SFO orders. There have been some really great knives produced from such a program. I don't know what drives GEC to produce what specific knives they do, and how many of each, but I can say that the demand for GEC products has increased greatly over the past 2-3 years. I will admit there is always a mad scramble to grab whatever SFO hits the market next. I think a lot of that "hype" that fuels it starts HERE.

 

[AntDog]

Sure, if you ignore the posts I made regarding the expected run sizes and the resultant lolly scrambles on the 15s and the 47s (which I mentioned in another thread as examples of this behavior). But clearly the dominant belief in this forum is that GEC and their chosen dealers can do no wrong (which is comically wrongheaded in a niche market such as traditional folders), so if those are the blinders you wish to wear then I won't try to stop you.

Oh, it ain't me who has the blinders on here. I never said GEC can do no wrong. They choose to do things the way they do, and that's up to them.

This isn't kid's sports. This is men buying knives. There aren't enough participation ribbons to go around.

It clearly sounds like you're just mad because you didn't get what you wanted. It happens in life.

If you're mad that others got the knives you wanted, I don't know what to tell you. That's the way the cookie crumbles. If you're mad at how GEC does things, send them a tersely worded email. I'm sure they'll all get a good hearty chuckle out of it.

It just doesn't make much sense to me to get so frustrated over either something you have no control over, or simply missed out on.

If it's just the knives you want, be proactive. Comb the exchange. Check the bay. Ask around. Send PMs. If you want to change GEC's business practices, good luck with that.

 

[Jsega51]

Sorry Tsar, my last reply didn't really answer your questions.

I purchased a #14 TC Barlow from GunstockJacks Knives. I saw a notice, in his signature here on blade forums Friday afternoon, that the knives would be posted (all single blade variants) at 12 PDT Saturday. That's a day's notice with the caveat that he may not get them in the mail in time. So it wasn't a definite.

Saturday afternoon, around 2:45 or so, I went to his site, signed in, refreshed it while I checked my emails and such, and at exactly 12 PDT, 3pm my time, the knives popped up where they should be, under the #14 pattern and also under the tab for Short Runs and SFO's. I put the one in my cart that I wanted, paid with PayPal and it is currently on the way to me.

No special treatment was given to me, no super special advanced notice. Just good old fashioned paying attention and being ready when the time came.

 

[TsarBomba]

Tsar, man o man. Not everything is as concrete as you'd like it to be. GEC doesn't know for sure when the knives will be completed. Dealers don't know for certain when they will get them. They also don't know how many they will get. Not all dealers run a reserve system. Some do, some let you reserve only by email, some just put them on the site. Most notify when the knives will show up for purchase and as you see, that notice isn't always weeks in advance. Some don't put any notice up at all. They leave it to blind luck. I've gotten knives that way many times. Searching when no one else was.

Once a pattern is announced, start looking on the GEC Authorized Dealer's websites. Any that allow you to reserve a knife, will have a notice for it. Email the owners, call them up. There's no secret. There is however many people competing for the same knives. You have to be active and you have to be on top of it. Even then, you can miss out! It happens! If you do your homework, you can get them more often than not.

Like Vince said, there will be some that come up right away for sale on the exchange. Usually the first ones aren't at higher prices either so watch for them.

It sucks missing out but that's the game. It would be really boring if no knife was rare/collectible/one of a kind, etc.

First, I appreciate your reply. It seems like some of the early posts are determined to make this into a flinging exercise, which I have no interest in. This would probably be better hashed-out in traditionals but Frank and Gary put the kibosh on that some time ago.

I'm familiar with the scramble and all that it entails. I indicated as such in the OP. I'm on multiple mailing lists (only one of which sent out a notice to me, and less than half an hour before what is the end of the business day for most of the civilized world). I made a call to another dealer who basically said (paraphrased) "they go up when they go up". There is no impetus for the dealers to change unless people start voting with their wallets. That's part of the reason I posted the thread here.

GEC knows the length of the eventual run to within a few knives. They sometimes see later orders so the overall run would actually increase, not decrease. I have not read about a single major dealer cancelling an order at the eleventh hour, especially for something as hyped as this. GEC's dealers prefer the model, sure. But that still doesn't explain abnormalities like the fact that they're choking on stainless Navy knives even after all the acorn hype. Of course, they can swing drastically in the other direction and never order a knife over 20 pieces again. That'll only serve to marginalize GEC as a boutique maker in the long term.

Regarding the secondary market, judging by the last run of #15 TCs and the first half-dozen or so that went up on "the big auction site" that same week, your assertion that sellers wouldn't be seeking a premium early on is, shall we say, misguided. I propose a little experiment. Over the next, say, 90 days, I'd like you to set up an auction site alert for the 14 TCs and just make note of the sellers. Don't record much. Just seller name and date of listing. At the end of those 90 days, go back and see just how many repeat sellers there were for these brand new PPP knives. Then tell me there isn't a problem.

And as I stated before, I not only refuse to accept the idea that GEC and their dealers (with or without BFC memberships) are beyond reproach, I actively challenge it. I have no problem dealing with the slings and arrows their loyalist supporters have and will continue to undoubtedly unleash, because the points have to be made.

 

[Jsega51]

I said on the exchange, there will be some that pop up at reasonable prices. I know of a few members that buy to flip them on eBay. Unfortunately that's not what you wanted to talk about according to your OP so don't bring that up. I've been nice about this all the way through, even in W&C. I don't know what else to say man. You've commented in every thread possible about the whole deal and you're obviously holding a grudge now.

There's a lot of speculation on your part picking apart GEC's and their Dealer's "motives". Call them up and ask some questions. They're the truly qualified people to give you the answers that you want.

 

[rdave]

OK - so the premise that you open an official email at at 4:30 and buy an SFO at 5 is a bit skewed...

The buying process for an SFO like the #14 starts months ago when they were announced and certainly years ago if you want to avoid refreshing your screen....And years ago if you are serious about buying GEC knives on a regular basis and hope to get what you really want.

The buying process is in a relationship with a dealer and there are 4 or 5 really good dealers out there to work with. This is like a marriage and you don't just go and buy an SFO at 5 pm, you need to develop a relationship. In a few years you'll be able ask your dealer to place your name on the SFO list - he'll say ok but it depends on what he gets. Not all dealers get the SFO and not all dealers get the same amount. Then the covers are announced and you email your dealer and ask for a specific cover and the dealer writes back it depends on what I get. Then they arrive and the dealer tells you he has limited the quantity to one SFO knife per customer and this is the covers available, what would you like. Then you respond with your choice and pay up within the hour and the knife is on its way to you.

So...this may take 3 to 8 years and you still must ask the dealer in a relative short window to be on the list or sign up on the reserve list, like that day or the next morning after the SFO run is announced. And like any relationship you need to be polite - say thank you and please and drop the dealer a note about how much you like the knife after receiving it because after all it's a pain in the ass to address the packages and get them to the post office etc.

Some dealers like Gunstock and KSF put the knives on their store generously giving everyone a chance at the knife. Collectors has a very functional reserve process with great information on the site and others like Blue Creek and Northwest - 2 of the best - communicate individually for the SFOs which seem to work well for them and their customers.

I would think doing business with a dealer throughout the year also helps - for example you may want to pick up a couple of up coming #14 Boys or find an oldy in the store to buy etc.

But remember, be courteous, no whining and let's face it, it helps not to be from Florida...(except for Evan (esnyx) and a few other prominent Floridians)

I'm a little curious, so I have a question for any of the folks who (like me) are members of official GEC dealer mailing lists and may have witnessed the Charlie Foxtrot of a lolly scramble over the last few days. According to multiple reports, the total availability of these knives barely exceeded two minutes at most, if at all, outlets. But for those of us who "ran the gauntlet" and did what was asked for a chance at handing over our hard-earned money for a knife, just what sort of advance notice were we really offered?

Without going into dealer specifics, here are some details extracted from the sole notification I received:

date: Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 4:31 PM
subject: Charlie Campagna SFO - GEC #14 Lick Creek Barlow

Happy Monday! We have received the new #14 TC Barlow run, and they will be online at 5pm Eastern Time.
- No phone orders (they sell too fast!).
- There are only a few of each.
- Once they disappear, they are sold out.
...
Thanks so much for being our customer, and best of luck you!

For reference, I live in Eastern time.

My thoughts/questions:

This was my first and only notification about the #14s. Is this about commensurate with the initial lead time (under 30 minutes) given to others?

For anyone who received earlier or multiple notifications, were you given any information about blade configurations available or rough estimates of stock counts?

For those of you who were on your dealer of choice's site at the time the knives went on sale, were you able to place an order in a reasonable amount of time after the sale went "live"? I consider a reasonable amount of time to be enough for your average internet user to select a knife finish/handle, place it in the shopping cart, and fill out the necessary sales information. Oh, and of course, clicking the button to finish the sale.

GEC collectors often get upset and respond with hostility to the implication that the GEC short run/SFO culture has fomented a sort of lottery system. This is best exemplified by the recent Esky Zulu jacks, the #15 jacks (not the Navy knives, of which they seem to have massively overestimated the popularity) and the #14 Barlows. I expect we will see something similar later this year with the upcoming #77 run. Given the manufacturer's trajectory towards this short run/SFO-only model, I can see no way that the term "lottery" isn't valid on at least a couple of levels.

Thanks for any information, anecdotes, or opinions you might offer. While I realize it behooves some people for as few buyers as possible to "elbow in" on these short run/SFO sales, I am of the opinion that "more knowledge is better knowledge".

If this is not the place for such a question, mods, please feel free to move it accordingly. I could find no subforum where nonspecific dealer practices should be discussed, at least per the sub descriptions.