GEC - production, dealer practices, availability

[mtangent]

And as I stated before, I not only refuse to accept the idea that GEC and their dealers (with or without BFC memberships) are beyond reproach, I actively challenge it. I have no problem dealing with the slings and arrows their loyalist supporters have and will continue to undoubtedly unleash, because the points have to be made.

Just make a point once & move on. Keeping yourself stuck on this point hurts only you, not the supply chain you despise. You said a few days ago you were done, so be done with it. Find something else to collect. In 10 yrs time, the hoopla will be long over, maybe you'll pick one up for a bargain. That's collecting.

 

[joeradza]

rdave.....👍👍

Alan

 

[TsarBomba]

Spyderco does that exact thing with Sprint runs, Benchmade it's gold class, Emerson it's limited runs and emerson collector knives. Like I said everyone does it.

Except there's not a single dealer that sells Spyderco SFOs/short runs only. Which is the whole point.

I got no blinders on at all,I'm with you. But the only way for you to get justice is for you not to chase these knives. They do more than what you claim,too. Recently a run of knives was being advertised on facebook using a custom knife makers name & the word's xxx design. This was never asked permission for. So in essence,it goes back to what was said here about going to lengths for profits. It has been said many times when customers are disgruntled,put your buying dollars where you want .

Valid and fair point. I consider myself going one step further and exhorting others to vote with me. Innit just politics, in the end?

I said on the exchange, there will be some that pop up at reasonable prices. I know of a few members that buy to flip them on eBay. Unfortunately that's not what you wanted to talk about according to your OP so don't bring that up. I've been nice about this all the way through, even in W&C. I don't know what else to say man. You've commented in every thread possible about the whole deal and you're obviously holding a grudge now.
There's a lot of speculation on your part picking apart GEC's and their Dealer's "motives". Call them up and ask some questions. They're the truly qualified people to give you the answers that you want.

I did. Again, I keep saying this but it's as if not mentioning names causes the whole concept to sail over people's heads. This is not a hit thread. I called a dealer with these questions. It is a dealer I have little doubt many of you (including myself) have used in the past to buy GECs. Maybe the rep I spoke to was having a bad day, I don't know. The brusque answer was, shall we say, most unsatisfactory (again, in the spirit of not making this a hit thread). The whole reason this thread exists was to consolidate these thoughts in a "proper" place to allow everyone who wants to continue praising GEC to do so. Complaining about this thread is simply double jeopardy. It's not valid. Demanding that someone quash the conversation never is.

And if you read my earlier posts regarding this phenomenon you'll see that I also pointed to the flippers on the Exchange. Clearly I'm not the only one noticing, because there were posts from other users and mods indicating that the idea of coming down on sellers for obvious insta-flips on the Exchange was floated. Why would this happen if it was behavior the Exchange hasn't seen?

I frankly don't know if, for makers or dealers, it's a case of active motivation or simply sheer inertia. GEC is selling their orders, they have no impetus to change. The dealers are making their profits (and, frankly, could be making more), they have no impetus to change. The only real option anyone has is to air their grievances despite the constant efforts by GEC fans to make it seem like neither can do any wrong. If GEC were to start suffering the fortunes of, say, a Survive! Knives, any inertia keeping them close to this SFO/short run model would likely disappear in a heartbeat.

I'd also like to point out that the dealers we are talking about, in general, sell more than just GEC products. There is no exclusivity unless a dealer chooses to be. I am not aware of any at this time. So clearly the model is not viable without some external assistance (for dealers).

Long and short, nobody has denied that the short runs make GEC and their hand-picked dealers happy. I don't know if I can say the same for users or collectors (unless you're philllll in which case there's some sort of tear in the space-time continuum that allows him to reach over long distances and pluck GECs for his safe ).

OK - so the premise that you open an official email at at 4:30 and buy an SFO at 5 is a bit skewed...

Finally! Somebody has the balls to acknowledge this.

But remember, be courteous, no whining and let's face it, it helps not to be from Florida...(except for Evan (esnyx) and a few other prominent Floridians)

I'm from Flatbush, a.k.a. the greatest city in the world.

Just make a point once & move on. Keeping yourself stuck on this point hurts only you, not the supply chain you despise. You said a few days ago you were done, so be done with it. Find something else to collect. In 10 yrs time, the hoopla will be long over, maybe you'll pick one up for a bargain. That's collecting.

See above re: quashing the conversation.

Oh, and Will: Paying $300 for a sub-hundred dollar knife? Flippers can suck multiple bags of dicks.

 

[palonej]

Flatbush is a city? The only Flatbush I know is Flatbush Ave in Brooklyn.

 

[knifeswapper]

First off, there are some bad assumptions in this thread. Secondly, it seems we are focusing on the TC run and acting like this is the way every run has become.

Navy knives weren't over-produced, the actual count was rather small compared to other recent runs. But, as I have said before, SS is a dog; and Navy knives are a niche product. But GEC has garnered enough dealers that it is actually hard to get enough stock on most items to last until they run them again. So, these days I order way more than I anticipate selling immediately just so I can have some stock for awhile.

The TC line has a somewhat different issue. When Charlie started distributing them thru dealers, there were 3-4 of us selling them. Now there are at least 7; which makes the count per about half what it once was at the same time about 4x the number of customers want them. Since GEC has limited standalone SFO's to 500pcs, this is going to be an ongoing issue on TC items.

Lick Creek Boys knives, Beer Scouts, and Caplifter Boys Knives have had reservations open for weeks! Put your name down - get a knife. So although there may be a handful of runs that are short enough that your success is part chance; it is a tiny percentage of yearly production.

The last big complaint on BF about GEC was that they were making too many SFO's and not enough general production runs. Now the complaint is that they are not making enough SFO's.....

GEC has made several changes in their policies recently to insure they have the time to produce what they want to produce and that the distribution is fair. Although I don't like some of the changes; I can't find one that when you look at it from all points of view - is fair. But the TC issue is not even a GEC decision; if Charlie wanted he could produce all 500 of the same knife / same slabs - that would make them last a bit longer on the market.

I have learned one thing. It doesn't matter what you do or how you do it - there will always be somebody that doesn't like it.

 

[AntDog]

The whole reason this thread exists was to consolidate these thoughts in a "proper" place to allow everyone who wants to continue praising GEC to do so. Complaining about this thread is simply double jeopardy. It's not valid. Demanding that someone quash the conversation never is.

So, in other words, this is the place to voice your disappointment because you missed out on a few GEC sfo's? Flap away here about good ole boy networks, flippers, GEC's business practices, and conspiracies?

I think from the replies you've gotten so far, the consensus is evident.

 

[TsarBomba]

Flatbush is a city? The only Flatbush I know is Flatbush Ave in Brooklyn.

Flatbush is a neighborhood in Brooklyn, a borough in the greatest city in the world. We like to think of ourselves as a city within a city, Brooklyn Strong.

 

[TsarBomba]

I think from the replies you've gotten so far, the consensus is evident.

One man's "consensus" is another man's "rote fanboyism".

You'll note the lack of unanimity. Or you won't. Either way, no skin off my back.

 

[palonej]

That's where I grew up! I was in East Flatbush in Mill Basin till '97.
Best place in the world to grow up! Not the same now though.
Where are you??
Joe

 

[TsarBomba]

First off, there are some bad assumptions in this thread. Secondly, it seems we are focusing on the TC run and acting like this is the way every run has become.

Navy knives weren't over-produced, the actual count was rather small compared to other recent runs. But, as I have said before, SS is a dog; and Navy knives are a niche product. But GEC has garnered enough dealers that it is actually hard to get enough stock on most items to last until they run them again. So, these days I order way more than I anticipate selling immediately just so I can have some stock for awhile.

The TC line has a somewhat different issue. When Charlie started distributing them thru dealers, there were 3-4 of us selling them. Now there are at least 7; which makes the count per about half what it once was at the same time about 4x the number of customers want them. Since GEC has limited standalone SFO's to 500pcs, this is going to be an ongoing issue on TC items.

Lick Creek Boys knives, Beer Scouts, and Caplifter Boys Knives have had reservations open for weeks! Put your name down - get a knife. So although there may be a handful of runs that are short enough that your success is part chance; it is a tiny percentage of yearly production.

The last big complaint on BF about GEC was that they were making too many SFO's and not enough general production runs. Now the complaint is that they are not making enough SFO's.....

GEC has made several changes in their policies recently to insure they have the time to produce what they want to produce and that the distribution is fair. Although I don't like some of the changes; I can't find one that when you look at it from all points of view - is fair. But the TC issue is not even a GEC decision; if Charlie wanted he could produce all 500 of the same knife / same slabs - that would make them last a bit longer on the market.
I have learned one thing. It doesn't matter what you do or how you do it - there will always be somebody that doesn't like it.

Thanks for the input, Mike. It's unfortunate that the window was so tiny for pre-orders on the TCs (same situation as the open stock sales), but obviously I don't blame you one bit. You do have to admit, however, that the incidence of SFOs and short runs has increased while the overall output of GEC on the more popular frames, even after multiple runs in the past, has decreased. Navy knives are niche, for sure, but it seems like the #15 boys' knives saw no shortage of sales this time out. It's not the only pattern where this has happened, either. Furthermore, are the limitations you mentioned uniform across the board? It seems like the #18s had a ton of SFOs go out -- at one point, literally everywhere I looked somebody had a camel bone Beagle. It actually made me want to get one. Imagine my shock when I found some available. Sure, there's probably not as much demand for what is essentially a peanut with a spear and coping blade than there was for a Barlow, but I can't imagine that was the sole difference.

I actually don't want this to be a blame game at all, but more of a nudge to parties involved to look inward a little bit and gain some perspective on just how niche the industry is. 500 TCs go out, and fully half of those are "in play" on the secondary market from the get-go. Whether it's through hoarders reselling the knives on the grey market at ridiculous prices or your typical fleabay scumbag spreading out "the joy" and the profits over the span of a couple years, those knives may as well have never crossed your desk in the first place, because for what they can actually fetch other folks are making more than you did after you did all the work.

I don't have any interest in the boys' knives, or in fact any 14s or 15s with clips at all. As for the Beer Scouts? I'll be "voting with my wallet" as I've been exhorted to do, only in a way that makes me a tidy profit when I cash out my reservations. After all, judging by the "consensus" in this thread, nobody's got any problems with that sort of thing!

Your final sentence is truth, for sure, and I don't claim to have the answer (if, in fact there even is one). I just think the question doesn't need to be squelched by rabid fanboyism (see also: every S!K or Strider thread this forum's ever seen outside the Exchange).

That's where I grew up! I was in East Flatbush in Mill Basin till '97.
Best place in the world to grow up! Not the same now though.
Where are you??

Went to Atlanta for school in '93. Followed the jobs and money to the Miami/Ft. Lauderdale area afterwards. Learned a bit too late there's more to life than jobs and money.

 

[rdave]

Flatbush? You're exempt!

Thanks for the input, Mike. It's unfortunate that the window was so tiny for pre-orders on the TCs (same situation as the open stock sales), but obviously I don't blame you one bit. You do have to admit, however, that the incidence of SFOs and short runs has increased while the overall output of GEC on the more popular frames, even after multiple runs in the past, has decreased. Navy knives are niche, for sure, but it seems like the #15 boys' knives saw no shortage of sales this time out. It's not the only pattern where this has happened, either. Furthermore, are the limitations you mentioned uniform across the board? It seems like the #18s had a ton of SFOs go out -- at one point, literally everywhere I looked somebody had a camel bone Beagle. It actually made me want to get one. Imagine my shock when I found some available. Sure, there's probably not as much demand for what is essentially a peanut with a spear and coping blade than there was for a Barlow, but I can't imagine that was the sole difference.

I actually don't want this to be a blame game at all, but more of a nudge to parties involved to look inward a little bit and gain some perspective on just how niche the industry is. 500 TCs go out, and fully half of those are "in play" on the secondary market from the get-go. Whether it's through hoarders reselling the knives on the grey market at ridiculous prices or your typical fleabay scumbag spreading out "the joy" and the profits over the span of a couple years, those knives may as well have never crossed your desk in the first place, because for what they can actually fetch other folks are making more than you did after you did all the work.

I don't have any interest in the boys' knives, or in fact any 14s or 15s with clips at all. As for the Beer Scouts? I'll be "voting with my wallet" as I've been exhorted to do, only in a way that makes me a tidy profit when I cash out my reservations. After all, judging by the "consensus" in this thread, nobody's got any problems with that sort of thing!

Your final sentence is truth, for sure, and I don't claim to have the answer (if, in fact there even is one). I just think the question doesn't need to be squelched by rabid fanboyism (see also: every S!K or Strider thread this forum's ever seen outside the Exchange).



Went to Atlanta for school in '93. Followed the jobs and money to the Miami/Ft. Lauderdale area afterwards. Learned a bit too late there's more to life than jobs and money.

 

[knifeswapper]

Actually there were around 100pcs of the #15 and #74 SS variants; thus there is little to be learned from them moving relatively fast as they had to spread those across a lot of dealers. I could sell out 100pcs of #15's with a spur saw as fast...

 

[TsarBomba]

Actually there were around 100pcs of the #15 and #74 SS variants; thus there is little to be learned from them moving relatively fast as they had to spread those across a lot of dealers. I could sell out 100pcs of #15's with a spur saw as fast...

I'll admit to not paying much attention to the Mustangs; I never even checked a dealer site until long after they'd been released (and even then, with only a verbal description of the Delrin "store model", I didn't want to commit).

In trying to discern the dynamics of a GEC run I often find myself "chopping off a zero" for what I would consider a realistic outline of the numbers they're moving. It almost seems like I need to start chopping two zeroes.

There is an upside to this, however, which makes me feel a little better about the long-term prospects of some of these favored patterns. The one thing which seems to be holding true is that there's a fairly consistent rise in the level of interest in the traditionals GEC makes. I can only hope that they try and get out in front of that because -- regardless of motivation, inertia, or even sheer dumb luck -- an increased demand for the ol' slippies will necessarily create the exact environment of "all SFOs/short runs" that I'm worried about.

Of course, if the economy falls apart again, none of this will be a problem...

 

[CapitalizedLiving]

I picked up every GEC SFO I cared about that was listed on their production schedule. I only really went for a couple of things (Vipers mostly), but the key was to get a head start and email dealers in advance. I always got them for retail price. I even managed to pick up a super limited run Talon made for some gathering GEC had one year. Only three made. I got one just by asking a dealer if he was going, and if so, if he wouldn't mind trying to pick one up.

This is just my experience and yours will likely vary. I also would not consider myself to be a hardcore GEC supporter since I sold all their stuff and used the money to buy weed. Er, I mean textbooks and new socks.

 

[Jsega51]

I hope you're not lumping me in as a "fanboy" Tsar. I've tried to help you, I've told you how to get the coveted TC that you want bad enough to spam every thread possible with your whining, yet you reject the advise being given.

I'm far from a GEC or TC fanboy. I've sold just about all of my production knives and now own mostly customs if you look back through the Totin Today thread in Traditionals. I'm just saying that there's no big secret to the whole thing. Just a little work involved. Like rdave said, the notification that a new SFO, or other pattern, will be coming out appears months in advance and comes from GEC themselves. At that point, start looking for reserve notices and email a few dealers.

Since you're not taking the answers being given to you, even from the mods who have warned you now about trolling on this subject, maybe you'd like to tell everyone the answer you want to be told. I'm very curious as to what the end game is here.

 

[okbohn]

Mike is right, there is no answer that fits everyone.

Collectorknives does a great job of early reserve in the business. It is completely fair and simple. Others do it differently (I don't know how they do it) but they do reserves. We throw ours up and let people buy them.

Ultimately, whether you call and someone says, "They are all reserved" or go to Mike's site and find that they are all spoken for or you go to our site and find they are all sold out--it is all the same. It is just at different times and different methods.

There are X number of knives and many more customers who want them. Every time there is a hot knife like these, it costs us customers because someone thinks that we do it wrong. I know Mike faces the same thing.

As to notifications (and the email that started this thread was from us), we send notices to the people who ask to give them a heads up for when they will go on the site. It is all we know to do. As to the timing--we have sent them out before hours in advance and we have customers who don't like the time, or didn't check their email, or it went into a spam filter. No matter how we approach this, there are always people upset.

As to a brisk interaction with our customer service. I am very sorry about that. We try hard to not be brisk. Understand when we a product like this comes out (and in the week or so before) we get tons and tons of calls of people asking when and complaining about how and wanting to know why and upset that they didn't get it from someone else and just excited to talk about hoping they get it. As hard as we try, sometimes that "here we go again" might come through. I am really sorry about that. We will have a discussion about that in our staff meeting.

All that to say, I am sorry it doesn't work like everyone would like. It doesn't work the way we would like either, but at this point, it is the best we know how to do.

 

[rdave]

In today's GEC world, KSF provides excellent customer service and show a genuine concern for their customers and the service they provide. (IMO of course)

Mike is right, there is no answer that fits everyone.

Collectorknives does a great job of early reserve in the business. It is completely fair and simple. Others do it differently (I don't know how they do it) but they do reserves. We throw ours up and let people buy them.

Ultimately, whether you call and someone says, "They are all reserved" or go to Mike's site and find that they are all spoken for or you go to our site and find they are all sold out--it is all the same. It is just at different times and different methods.

There are X number of knives and many more customers who want them. Every time there is a hot knife like these, it costs us customers because someone thinks that we do it wrong. I know Mike faces the same thing.

As to notifications (and the email that started this thread was from us), we send notices to the people who ask to give them a heads up for when they will go on the site. It is all we know to do. As to the timing--we have sent them out before hours in advance and we have customers who don't like the time, or didn't check their email, or it went into a spam filter. No matter how we approach this, there are always people upset.

As to a brisk interaction with our customer service. I am very sorry about that. We try hard to not be brisk. Understand when we a product like this comes out (and in the week or so before) we get tons and tons of calls of people asking when and complaining about how and wanting to know why and upset that they didn't get it from someone else and just excited to talk about hoping they get it. As hard as we try, sometimes that "here we go again" might come through. I am really sorry about that. We will have a discussion about that in our staff meeting.

All that to say, I am sorry it doesn't work like everyone would like. It doesn't work the way we would like either, but at this point, it is the best we know how to do.

 

[Planterz]

Forgive if I'm missing something, since all this is recent news to me, but has there been any indication whatsoever that there won't be another run, SFO, or whatever of these knives? Or variants? If this SFO sold out so quickly, why wouldn't there be another run? A one-off? Where's the logic in that?

There will be more #14's.

 

[esnyx]

I'm a little unclear with what you are asking, Tsar. Do you want to know how to get more information on the production schedule of GEC knives? Do you want to know, exactly, how the ones who got these knives managed to do it? Are you asking that this thread be a consolidation of information that everyone else has done the legwork on that you somehow cannot manage to do on your own?

In terms of GEC's business model, it is quite obvious that you do not know what you are talking about. Like Jake said, if you have any questions about how they run their business, call them directly. They will tell you everything that you need to know, down to how many knives they are capable of producing in a day. They are not some massive knife mill, this is a small company using traditional machines and processes to make knives in a traditional manner. They have many limitations to their capabilities, and with those limitations, they manage to make, IMO, some of the best(if not the best) traditional production slipjoints on the market.

Also, to my understanding, there is not a single GEC dealer or distributor that exclusively sells SFOs. GEC does not, and will not, convert their business model to only produce SFOs. If you choose to not take my word for it, call them up yourself and find out(as I and others have already suggested).

Finally, here is some honest, straightforward advice. If you are asking for help and information, it is extremely counterproductive to insult and dismiss the people that are trying to offer you advice, especially when that is exactly what you asked for. All this does is deter others from wanting to help you, and it makes it look like you are not actually seeking advice, but rather are wanting someone to tell you what you want to hear. Don't let ego get in the way of progress. Being over abrasive and combatant when people are trying to be cordial just makes you seem like a pigheaded jerk with a superiority complex. Not saying that is what you are, but that is how you are coming off when you behave in such a manner. Do a little self reflection, and think about what you are trying to accomplish.

 

[Danke42]

Sure seems like they're leaving a lot of money on the table.