General Hardness of Blades

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Less Than Sharpest said:
I wasn't trying to say that anyone is doing anything wrong. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I mainly wanted to express that this is a 'soft' science and should be treated that way. Simple carbon steels are wonderful if you like them that way. When I need to cut down a box I look for something that I'm not gonna get irritated when it ends up very dull because I know that it's going to get dull. I have used my ZT 0804 a lot and carry it everyday but I'm not going to use it for every single cutting task. I'll look for a simpler solution, and they're available. And it's fun to look around, to see what's available.

My original point had nothing to do with saying that anyone is doing anything wrong. It's just that there's a lot of complaining and frankly some people enjoy having a forum where they can say whatever they want and not have to ever back it up. I once frequented a knife store that was a place where people could say whatever they wanted, within reason, and opinions were excepted for what they were. There were a lot of opinions! But I don't recall anyone ever telling me I didn't know what I was talking about because at any time I could take their knife and sharpen it back to the point when it was new. I'm not trying to impress anyone here, but that was how it was. I don't recall anyone ever being bent out of shape or having their feelings hurt. Maybe they did.

I have read examples of people testing knife steels and they are very thorough, very careful to make sure everything was as scientific as possible, but those are the exception, not the rule. My main point was that people need to relax a little bit and just use their knife and stop acting as if they knew all. That's the whole point. It's a soft science.

When I was in high school I had a neighbor who had a collection of about 100 Case knives, all displayed very nicely, and one day I asked if I could look at one. Oh no (!) he told me, those are never to be handled. And this was a guy who handed me the keys to his Rolls Royce and let me drive it alone. And I remember thinking that he had his priorities backward. Perhaps...

So back to the question of which steel is better; M390 or 204P. I have some experience with both steels in knives made by ZT, two of either. I have cut a few things over the years, and I have a 0456 that has never cut anything except the hair from my arm. Sorry, it's really a nice blade and perhaps I'm just waiting for something equally nice to appear before I use it. But I mention it because ZT has always done such a great job with sharpening their edges, better than almost any company except for William Henry. So here we have two steels that are very similar in composition and it's natural to want to compare them, and I would have to give a slight nod to M390, based on my own completely biased opinions. I carry and regularly use a ZT 0804CF, and it takes a hell of a edge, no real complaints, but I would have to say that the M390 steel that I've carried and used in the past was just a little better.

But ZDP-189 is still the best steel (!) in my humble opinion. Sorry that it's so hard.

Cheers!
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Are you saying that metallurgy is a "soft" science?
 
Less Than Sharpest said:
I wasn't trying to say that anyone is doing anything wrong. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I mainly wanted to express that this is a 'soft' science and should be treated that way. Simple carbon steels are wonderful if you like them that way. When I need to cut down a box I look for something that I'm not gonna get irritated when it ends up very dull because I know that it's going to get dull. I have used my ZT 0804 a lot and carry it everyday but I'm not going to use it for every single cutting task. I'll look for a simpler solution, and they're available. And it's fun to look around, to see what's available.

My original point had nothing to do with saying that anyone is doing anything wrong. It's just that there's a lot of complaining and frankly some people enjoy having a forum where they can say whatever they want and not have to ever back it up. I once frequented a knife store that was a place where people could say whatever they wanted, within reason, and opinions were excepted for what they were. There were a lot of opinions! But I don't recall anyone ever telling me I didn't know what I was talking about because at any time I could take their knife and sharpen it back to the point when it was new. I'm not trying to impress anyone here, but that was how it was. I don't recall anyone ever being bent out of shape or having their feelings hurt. Maybe they did.

I have read examples of people testing knife steels and they are very thorough, very careful to make sure everything was as scientific as possible, but those are the exception, not the rule. My main point was that people need to relax a little bit and just use their knife and stop acting as if they knew all. That's the whole point. It's a soft science.

When I was in high school I had a neighbor who had a collection of about 100 Case knives, all displayed very nicely, and one day I asked if I could look at one. Oh no (!) he told me, those are never to be handled. And this was a guy who handed me the keys to his Rolls Royce and let me drive it alone. And I remember thinking that he had his priorities backward. Perhaps...

So back to the question of which steel is better; M390 or 204P. I have some experience with both steels in knives made by ZT, two of either. I have cut a few things over the years, and I have a 0456 that has never cut anything except the hair from my arm. Sorry, it's really a nice blade and perhaps I'm just waiting for something equally nice to appear before I use it. But I mention it because ZT has always done such a great job with sharpening their edges, better than almost any company except for William Henry. So here we have two steels that are very similar in composition and it's natural to want to compare them, and I would have to give a slight nod to M390, based on my own completely biased opinions. I carry and regularly use a ZT 0804CF, and it takes a hell of a edge, no real complaints, but I would have to say that the M390 steel that I've carried and used in the past was just a little better.

But ZDP-189 is still the best steel (!) in my humble opinion. Sorry that it's so hard.

Cheers!
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You know what they say about opinions...? But opinions don't mean much if they are not backed up.
Anytime someone is contemplating what the best steel is needs to ask the obvious questions. What do you expect from the steel and what are you using it for?
 
000Robert said:
You know what they say about opinions...? But opinions don't mean much if they are not backed up.
Anytime someone is contemplating what the best steel is needs to ask the obvious questions. What do you expect from the steel and what are you using it for?
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And then they have to hope, expect, trust that they receive that which they decided upon at the conclusion of their research.
 
I'm not interested in having an argument about what I said or did not say. Read my post and figure it out. Thank you to everyone who contributed something of significance, or thought provoking. It's too bad that there are individuals who would rather pick apart a persons' post and slam their efforts.

Not to get too far off topic but there is a rather large industry of speaker wires and interconnects based on peoples' abilities to hear subtle differences in wires that cannot be measured by scientific instruments. Some people cannot hear any difference, some people can. It doesn't mean that the people who can hear a difference have too much money to spend, or that people who cannot hear a difference have too much wax in their ears. It's ridiculous to argue any point either way. A very intelligent man who has a masters' degree in physics tried to explain to me one time that there is zero difference between high end speaker cable and ten cent per foot wire that you can buy at Home Depot, just based on his own experiences with very expensive machines to measure such things. But my ears can hear a difference. To each his own.

I wrote that ZDP-189 is the best steel but that's only based on my somewhat limited use. I'm certain that there are great steels out there that I've never used, and I really appreciate people trying to help me out. So thank you.
To anyone else who just wants to pick a fight, gee, I'm sorry. Many years ago when I worked at a major knife company virtually everyone carried a knife and gosh, everyone was very, very polite to one another. There were jokes made about how nice we all were to one another. It's kinda funny how the anonymity of the internet can get some peoples' blood up. Oh well.
 
Less Than Sharpest said:
I'm not interested in having an argument about what I said or did not say. Read my post and figure it out. Thank you to everyone who contributed something of significance, or thought provoking. It's too bad that there are individuals who would rather pick apart a persons' post and slam their efforts.

Not to get too far off topic but there is a rather large industry of speaker wires and interconnects based on peoples' abilities to hear subtle differences in wires that cannot be measured by scientific instruments. Some people cannot hear any difference, some people can. It doesn't mean that the people who can hear a difference have too much money to spend, or that people who cannot hear a difference have too much wax in their ears. It's ridiculous to argue any point either way. A very intelligent man who has a masters' degree in physics tried to explain to me one time that there is zero difference between high end speaker cable and ten cent per foot wire that you can buy at Home Depot, just based on his own experiences with very expensive machines to measure such things. But my ears can hear a difference. To each his own.

I wrote that ZDP-189 is the best steel but that's only based on my somewhat limited use. I'm certain that there are great steels out there that I've never used, and I really appreciate people trying to help me out. So thank you.
To anyone else who just wants to pick a fight, gee, I'm sorry. Many years ago when I worked at a major knife company virtually everyone carried a knife and gosh, everyone was very, very polite to one another. There were jokes made about how nice we all were to one another. It's kinda funny how the anonymity of the internet can get some peoples' blood up. Oh well.
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A little sensitive I see. Sorry for asking for any type of clarification to your post.
 
Blues said:
And then they have to hope, expect, trust that they receive that which they decided upon at the conclusion of their research.
Click to expand...

That's what testing and using the steel is for. I don't have an expensive Rc tester but I now have some hardness testing files. I can at least make sure that the steel is in the ballpark, so to speak. But except when thinking about the survival of mankind, I've always believed that hope was for suckers.
 
danbot said:
Are you saying that metallurgy is a "soft" science?
Click to expand...
Well let's just take a look at Wikipedia.

Soft Sciences: psychology, sociology, metallurgy, anthropology, or political science

Seems legit; hope you're not offended by this new information.
 
000Robert said:
That's what testing and using the steel is for. I don't have an expensive Rc tester but I now have some hardness testing files. I can at least make sure that the steel is in the ballpark, so to speak. But except when thinking about the survival of mankind, I've always believed that hope was for suckers.
Click to expand...

I mentioned the use of files in my first or second post in this thread. I also mentioned that I'd sent back custom blades that proved to have less than an adequate heat treat based upon use and sharpening.

I'm also a retired federal law enforcement officer who didn't rely upon faith and hope to win 100% of his cases brought to trial over a 20 something year career.

YMMV, but I think I made it clear that I'm aware of the standards and how to apply them.
 
Danke42 said:
Well let's just take a look at Wikipedia.

Soft Sciences: psychology, sociology, metallurgy, anthropology, or political science

Seems legit; hope you're not offended by this new information.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that wikipedia is the be all and end all of determining "truth", for example according to dictionary.com, metallurgy would meet the criteria of a hard science. (I have no dog or knife in this fight.)

According to Dictonary.com:

hard science, noun
Any of the natural or physical sciences, as chemistry, biology, physics, or astronomy, in which aspects of the universe are investigated by means of hypotheses and experiments.

soft science, noun
Any of the specialized fields or disciplines, as psychology, sociology, anthropology, or political science, that interpret human behavior, institutions, society, etc., on the basis of scientific investigations for which it may be difficult to establish strictly measurable criteria.
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Personally, I'd consider it hard science.
 
And just for the purpose of argument/disambiguation/thought experimentation I can buy into the idea of someone with calibrated elbows sharpening 100 000 knives in a row of the same design and steel and when the get to 100 001 they could say hold on this one here feels a bit soft. Doesn't seem like that would happen often in the real world.

There is a reason that any pro mechanic no matter how many engines they've built will use a torque wrench when building an engine. Human elbows are definitely not calibrated. A master of their craft has the experience to know when to use a tool instead of trusting instinct.
 
And I sharpen on a Hardcore 2x72" belt grinder! Sorry if I gave the impression that I was a little sensitive. Metallurgy itself is not a soft science, but in my limited range of experience in the world of manufacturing, what is practiced is not metallurgy, it's simply manufacturing. There are a lot of makers who do measure every single blade that they produce, as I once did, and that is a science. I made a few knives but todays' amazing custom makers are truly in a class by themselves.
 
Blues said:
I'm not sure that wikipedia is the be all and end all of determining "truth", for example according to dictionary.com, metallurgy would meet the criteria of a hard science. (I have no dog or knife in this fight.)
Click to expand...
OK checking the dictionary this time.

Hard science: Hard science include producing testable predictions, performing controlled experiments, relying on quantifiable data and mathematical models, a high degree of accuracy and objectivity.

Soft Science: Fewer graphs, more buzzwords.
 
Blues said:
I mentioned the use of files in my first or second post in this thread. I also mentioned that I'd sent back custom blades that proved to have less than an adequate heat treat based upon use and sharpening.

I'm also a retired federal law enforcement officer who didn't rely upon faith and hope to win 100% of his cases brought to trial over a 20 something year career.

YMMV, but I think I made it clear that I'm aware of the standards and how to apply them.
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I remember reading your posts. About hope, you're right, too many people rely on it. I was talking about people in general, not you personally.
 
OP - you said ZT has the best edges. Please explain "best" in what sense? If I look at the factory sharpness of the blade, Spyderco and Cold Steel are better than ZT, according to my limited experience (same below). If I look at the bevels being even and symmetric, Hinderer and CRK are obviously better than ZT. No offense but do the 100,000 knives that you sharpened include all these brands?
 
Sharp edge- Sorry but I didn't say that ZT has the best edges. But as far as knife manufacturing goes, they were on the list. I don't recall ever sharpening a Hinderer, but a lot of CRK's. Many, many Spyderco's and a handful of Cold Steel. No offense taken.
 
Danke42 said:
And just for the purpose of argument/disambiguation/thought experimentation I can buy into the idea of someone with calibrated elbows sharpening 100 000 knives in a row of the same design and steel and when the get to 100 001 they could say hold on this one here feels a bit soft. Doesn't seem like that would happen often in the real world.

There is a reason that any pro mechanic no matter how many engines they've built will use a torque wrench when building an engine. Human elbows are definitely not calibrated. A master of their craft has the experience to know when to use a tool instead of trusting instinct.
Click to expand...

I remember reading a story about a tennis player who practiced certain shots so much that when he/she kept hitting the ball out on a certain court during a match, he/she asked for the court to be measured, and sure enough they found the court was off by something like 2 inches (forget if it was length or width). The body/mind is capable of incredible precision.
 
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jlauffer said:
I remember reading a story about a tennis player who practiced certain shots so much that when he/she kept hitting the ball out on a certain court during a match, he/she asked for the court to be measured, and sure enough they found the court was off by something like 2 inches (forget if it was length of width). The body/mind is capable of incredible precision.
Click to expand...
To be fair they all practice those shots that verge on the line.
 
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