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General Hardness of Blades
- Thread starter Less Than Sharpest
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I use a torque wrench but I also know when something is wrong with the threads that will cause it to hit the torque spec without creating the necessary clamping force.
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- Oct 2, 1998
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- 46,979
Show me where I claimed infallibility? My point is that I didn't rely upon "hope" and "faith"...but reason and hard work.
You must know a lot about me, my integrity and the judicial system I served...as well as my obvious corruption.
I wonder who's been talking out of turn?
I won't dignify your absurd comments by listing my accomplishments. Feel free to PM me if you want to trade information about our backgrounds.
Put together a lot of motors and you will easily learn it.
There is a very subtle gritty feeling before the wrench gets close to clicking. Or the springy feeling when the bolt bottoms out but doesn’t have the right friction between clamping surfaces.
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- Feb 11, 2009
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- 1,357
Just tighten until you hear a crack, then back out half a turn
I have heard this also works
Of course it is, everybody has learned how to do this in one form or another. Its a learning curve, something a few of the self appointed experts-on-everything around here need to learn something about....
Can you pick up a styrofoam coffee cup without crushing it and making a mess? Of course you can, because you have learned how much force it takes to crush it and know when to stop. Can you feed yourself without jabbing the back of your mouth with the fork? Of course you can because you learned how to use the right amount of force to avoid poking holes in your mouth. Can you start a car by turning a key without breaking the key off? I would think so, because you have learned how to apply the right amount of force every time. When was the last time you forgot how to open a door and twisted the knob off? Please stop trying to prove that you can't create muscle memory to do this sort of thing.
What did everyone do before 1938 when the torque wrench didn't exist? Lots of stuff got built without them you know......
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- May 9, 2002
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- 12,803
What about the machine the first torque wrench was built on?
As for the topic, I've never been too bothered by the Rockwell. Most knives I use are simpler carbon steels. What few super steels I carry aren't given as much TLC as I hate having to chase that sharpening dragon with my more specialty stones. Well, maybe not HATE, but I enjoy maintaining softer steels more.
I will say that I put ZTs grind and edge finish in the lower tier for what I pay for them. CRK, Microtech, and Spyderco have all come in with better grinds on my samples. Not sure about how hard they are at the edge comparatively.
What about the machine the first torque wrench was built on?
As for the topic, I've never been too bothered by the Rockwell. Most knives I use are simpler carbon steels. What few super steels I carry are given as much TLC as I hate having to chase that sharpening dragon with my more specialty stones. Well, maybe not HATE, but I enjoy maintaining softer steels more.
I will say that I put ZTs grind and edge finish in the lower tier for what I pay for them. CRK, Microtech, and Spyderco have all come in with better grinds on my samples. Not sure about how hard they are at the edge comparatively.
I wonder what they used to calibrate the first torque wrench?
I use a sharpmaker for everything and bought the Diamond rods for super steels. It seems like high hardness carbon steel sharpens faster than high hardness stainless or really most stainless.
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- Mar 28, 2020
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I can use my own super power for questions like this. It's called common sense and boy it's tingling.
Lots of planes, trains and automobiles, along with many other things, were made before the advent torque wrench. Plenty of them are still around....
Its not hard to build things properly without one. There are other ways of applying torque correctly that are actually more repeatable if you know the properties of the bolt.
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- Oct 31, 2009
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How do you know the properties of the bolt? Smell? Taste? Feel?
How do consistently and reliably produce the desired properties of the bolts? Some kind of soft science will do?
Of course it is. Those who know what they are doing have the common sense to know that if you tighten a bolt or nut with your fingers just until it stops then turn it x amount you get the right amount of torque. Emphasis on "know what they are doing". Its surprising how many people think that something can't be done properly just because they don't know how to do it.....
How do you know? Well, now its back to the experience thing. Its something you learn.
This done all the time. Its called "Turns Past Finger Tight".... Finger tight + 1/2 turn or whatever. It produces consistent torque every time. Spark plugs for instance are finger tight + 1/4 or 1/2 turn for many cars.
https://www.championautoparts.com/Technical/Tech-Tips/Spark-Plug-Torque-Recommendations.html
If you are assembling parts and are familiar with the parts you can do it right every time.
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- Oct 31, 2009
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- 11,813
True, but it's not something that is just intuitive. It's been designed to work like that. Two bolts of the same size can be made to require different amounts of torque. How do you know with any certainty which is which? This is why they have identifying markings.
Back to the original topic...I think the manufacturers do a very good job of delivering blades within their specifications. Do some get through out of spec? Sure, it can happen and maybe some decide to address that issue through warranty rather than constantly chase their processes.
So just to be clear you're equating common activities like holding a styrofoam cup with training yourself to be a human Rockwell Hardness machine or being able to calibrate your wrists to set torque reliable with a range of a few inch pounds?
The granularity doesn't seem to match.
One simple fact I know is that mechanics who don't use a torque wrenches over torque bolts. Eventually that catches up with them.
When I am facing a person I'm got no issue with trusting my gut. When I'm dealing with a physical real world object I don't try to project my feelings onto it. It doesn't care.
Yes its the same, just on a different scale. If you know that turning the bolt on a brake caliper x amount from finger tight will produce the right torque, you can do it without a torque wrench. Same thing.....
Thats not a fact, its your opinion. There is a difference......There are good mechanics and bad mechanics. You just don't know any good ones.
Lots of mechanics who have been doing this work for years can do it, and its been done for many decades this way even before the torque wrench was developed. Experience is the key.....but the torque wrench eliminates the need for experience and training. Even so, there are plenty of bad mechanics who are more into getting it done fast than getting it done right and don't bother with a torque wrench with predictable results.
Some people just don't have what it takes I guess......they either can't or don't want to learn.....Sometimes mechanical ability is like being an artist, some people can draw anything to the last detail, some can't draw a straight line to save their life....
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- Jun 2, 2020
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I think factory sharpness can vary from knife to knife, even from within the same company. I dont have the largest folding knife collection in the world, but I own enough knives that I can get a feel for them to compare. Sometimes you can get duds, especially when they are hand finished.
I had a knife from FOX (Not a cheap one either) in Elmax steel that was hand sharpened on a wheel, and it actually came with a wire burr on it. As I sharpen knives and make knives myself I wasn't too bothered but I did think it was pretty bad to let them slip through. I wasn't impressed, but I know that one knife doesn't represent all of fOX sharpness and it was just a lemon, probably done at the end of some tired guys shift.
Spyderco edges to me are quite good, from all of the factories, I think maybe the Japanese ones (Moki factory?) and the Taichung ones might come slightly sharper than the Golden ones and Chinese. I noticed the Japanese spydercos have good quality edges, and I have never had a burnt edge from a Japanese or Taichung Spyderco. My K390 Delica, and VG-10 endura came with exceptional edges for a mass produced knife. I think the Japanese take sharpening seriously, even a cheap Mikihisa blue paper steel knife I got from Japan came with a very good edge, mirror polished and thinner than an opinel, single bevel must be lower than 6000ths behind the edge.
Cold steel seem to have very good edges right out of the box, even on their cheaper knives, I was impressed with their Finn Wolf scandi grind as well, I was expecting a secondary bevel, but no it has a well done true scandi grind, comes to a nice true apex as well. CS send out a sharp knife in my experience.
Benchmade in my experience have nice even grinds and decent edges, not quite as sharp as Spydercos, a bit thicker behind the edge (Except my Freek, that is actually quite thin) I would say they are not bad generally, but I usually touch them up on fine ceramic rods, just to add a little micro bevel bite.
Mora, now moras for such cheap knives are pretty good, I own tons of them and they do vary from knife to knife, some come perfect and some just a little less than perfect, but for the price they have nice mirror finished edges, that are reasonably decent, never burnt either.
Hultafors, I think the edges in general are quite poor, and I always have to sharpen them on arrival, a step down from Mora, but they are super cheap so I see them almost as project knives.
Opinel I honestly think they get a reputation of having sharp blades, but really all mine have come as dull as butter knives, but jusst like Hultafors I don't really hold that against them because they are so cheap and the steel is very quick to touch up, nice and thin behind the edge too and once an edge is on them they slice great, but out of the box no, they probably seem sharp because of how thin they are, but the actual edge is nowhere near what I consider sharp.
Real Steel Surprisingly for cheaper knives I find the full flat ground profiles very good, almost spyderco like in terms of distil taper, I notice distil taper quite a lot and enjoy seeing blades that display it. Not just ground on the bevel but actually having a tapering stock similar to how a sword is made. Lots of companies neglect distil taper and just ram a cutting bevel along some bar stock. This is one reason I like Spyderco so much their FFG blades all have very pronounced distil taper. Real Steel edges are decent, not the best I do touch them up, but they are not terrible out of the box. My E775 Griffin has a lovely FFG spyderco like geometry, and the Sandvik steel is done well.
CRKT Are alright, I usually touch them up with rods once I get them, they aren't the best, and the steel they use is not the greatest, but they are fine for the price, just average really, not dull like an opinel but not great either.
Tekut Are okay, not bad grinds, kind of burn the edges though and took me a good few sharpenings to reach quality steel, run the HRC a little soft but good for fast touch ups on their sandvik 12C27. Did have to touch up right out of the box though, not great factory sharpness.
Antonini I found quite poor on every example I've owned, again cheap knives so understand not spending ages perfecting the apex, but I not only had to touch them up but basically had to do the entire sharpening job myself, came quite dull, not impressive.
Maserin, similar to Antonini actually not very impressive, needed reprofiling straight out of the box. Honestly it seems like most Italian companies don't do as good of a job as Japanese, American or Taichung factories. I've not been very impressed with most Italian knife sharpness honestly.
Kizer, they are not bad, hit and miss, I've had some come good and some come a bit lacking, seems like they have some guys who are better than others on the job. My Shamshir came actually okay around Benchmade level, so above average but not 10/10. Then I had a Sliver that came pretty dull, and a GTI that came somewhere between the other 2, okay, not terrible.
Ontario, quite good, my D2 RAT and Utilitac pardue came pretty good, didn't really need to touch them up, but I did anyway more out of habit than need, decent not bad, the D2 was a little soft though probably should up the HRC a couple points maybe, no point using D2 if you run it under 60 IMO.
Hogue Very impressive actually, I got the feeling they have professional sharpeners (Not just regular assembly workers, trained sharpeners) on the job. the edges were some of the best i've ever seen from a production knife. It was actually so good that I felt no need to even touch it, mirror finished and looked hand stropped to boot. I think Hogue do a damn fine job at sending out a sharp knife, no half assed finish either, probably the best edge i've seen on a folding knife was my Hogue EX-01, that cryo treated 154CM is no joke either, that stuff is professionally heat treated and has a very good fine grain, I love Hogues cryo treated 154CM.
Chris Reeve, interesting, not the sharpest, not finished to the level of Hogues, but not basic either, talking about how they grind the edge and geometry, especially on my Tanto 21, it has a complex compound, hollow ground blade concave, leading to a convex appleseed edge apex, very interesting, with a American tanto tip geometry without secondary bevel, that's not basic it's well thought out. A hollow ground blade that changes to a convex edge, like having your cake and eating it, cuts well and is robust right at the apex at the same time as having thin behind the edge geometry. I like it, it was sharp too, not as sharp as it could be but it shaved hair, I got it to paper towel shaving sharp on some cermaic hones now. But it was decent. I appreciated the complexity of the geometry the most.
Boker solingen, excellent blade finish and polish and geometry, but the edge itself was lacking quite a lot, I had to reprofile the tip as well, because it was slightly rounded on my Barlow. Good steel well heat treated, but the actual edge needed sharpening, it wasn't a good edge. Lovely knife though, very well made product, it seemed hand made to my eyes.
Boker plus The edges are actually better than Boker Solingen strangely enough, came sharper, but the build quality was nowhere near as good, but as for the apex itself they aren't terrible, not anything amazing but decently alright, slight touch up was needed, just a few runs and a bit of honing needed.
Rough Ryder Not amazing really, need touching up, the grinds are okay and the geometry is fine, steel is a little soft for my liking, it's average, had to touch them up though, not what I would call sharp.
ESEE Not bad, same goes with their folders from Taiwan, not bad at all, my ESEE folder from Taiwan came very similar to my RAT, probably sharpened by the same method and even people. Good edge didn't really need to do anythign to it, it's fine no problems.
KA-BAR honestly a let down, I figured it would come razor sharp, as they have almost legendary cult like following, but the edge was garbage, grind was off, looked like a drunk sailor was manning the belt. I could probably do better blindfolded. Wasn't anywhere near sharp. For their reputation I was not impressed with Ka-Bar edges (USA made ones, I've never handled one of their folders from Asia)
Schrade Pretty bad, their serrations were half decent I guess, but I was not impressed by their plain edges, I don't have experience with their older knives, only their new folders, and I think they are sub par. They are cheap though, so if they are below £50 then I'll let them slide for cost saving, I won't bash them as much as £100+ knives. but not very sharp honestly, and the knives are pretty crap too so I don't even care to waste time sharpening them, so my Schrades are still dull. Okay I'm getting a bit mean now I think i'll stop here.
I could add more but this post is getting rather long.
I had a knife from FOX (Not a cheap one either) in Elmax steel that was hand sharpened on a wheel, and it actually came with a wire burr on it. As I sharpen knives and make knives myself I wasn't too bothered but I did think it was pretty bad to let them slip through. I wasn't impressed, but I know that one knife doesn't represent all of fOX sharpness and it was just a lemon, probably done at the end of some tired guys shift.
Spyderco edges to me are quite good, from all of the factories, I think maybe the Japanese ones (Moki factory?) and the Taichung ones might come slightly sharper than the Golden ones and Chinese. I noticed the Japanese spydercos have good quality edges, and I have never had a burnt edge from a Japanese or Taichung Spyderco. My K390 Delica, and VG-10 endura came with exceptional edges for a mass produced knife. I think the Japanese take sharpening seriously, even a cheap Mikihisa blue paper steel knife I got from Japan came with a very good edge, mirror polished and thinner than an opinel, single bevel must be lower than 6000ths behind the edge.
Cold steel seem to have very good edges right out of the box, even on their cheaper knives, I was impressed with their Finn Wolf scandi grind as well, I was expecting a secondary bevel, but no it has a well done true scandi grind, comes to a nice true apex as well. CS send out a sharp knife in my experience.
Benchmade in my experience have nice even grinds and decent edges, not quite as sharp as Spydercos, a bit thicker behind the edge (Except my Freek, that is actually quite thin) I would say they are not bad generally, but I usually touch them up on fine ceramic rods, just to add a little micro bevel bite.
Mora, now moras for such cheap knives are pretty good, I own tons of them and they do vary from knife to knife, some come perfect and some just a little less than perfect, but for the price they have nice mirror finished edges, that are reasonably decent, never burnt either.
Hultafors, I think the edges in general are quite poor, and I always have to sharpen them on arrival, a step down from Mora, but they are super cheap so I see them almost as project knives.
Opinel I honestly think they get a reputation of having sharp blades, but really all mine have come as dull as butter knives, but jusst like Hultafors I don't really hold that against them because they are so cheap and the steel is very quick to touch up, nice and thin behind the edge too and once an edge is on them they slice great, but out of the box no, they probably seem sharp because of how thin they are, but the actual edge is nowhere near what I consider sharp.
Real Steel Surprisingly for cheaper knives I find the full flat ground profiles very good, almost spyderco like in terms of distil taper, I notice distil taper quite a lot and enjoy seeing blades that display it. Not just ground on the bevel but actually having a tapering stock similar to how a sword is made. Lots of companies neglect distil taper and just ram a cutting bevel along some bar stock. This is one reason I like Spyderco so much their FFG blades all have very pronounced distil taper. Real Steel edges are decent, not the best I do touch them up, but they are not terrible out of the box. My E775 Griffin has a lovely FFG spyderco like geometry, and the Sandvik steel is done well.
CRKT Are alright, I usually touch them up with rods once I get them, they aren't the best, and the steel they use is not the greatest, but they are fine for the price, just average really, not dull like an opinel but not great either.
Tekut Are okay, not bad grinds, kind of burn the edges though and took me a good few sharpenings to reach quality steel, run the HRC a little soft but good for fast touch ups on their sandvik 12C27. Did have to touch up right out of the box though, not great factory sharpness.
Antonini I found quite poor on every example I've owned, again cheap knives so understand not spending ages perfecting the apex, but I not only had to touch them up but basically had to do the entire sharpening job myself, came quite dull, not impressive.
Maserin, similar to Antonini actually not very impressive, needed reprofiling straight out of the box. Honestly it seems like most Italian companies don't do as good of a job as Japanese, American or Taichung factories. I've not been very impressed with most Italian knife sharpness honestly.
Kizer, they are not bad, hit and miss, I've had some come good and some come a bit lacking, seems like they have some guys who are better than others on the job. My Shamshir came actually okay around Benchmade level, so above average but not 10/10. Then I had a Sliver that came pretty dull, and a GTI that came somewhere between the other 2, okay, not terrible.
Ontario, quite good, my D2 RAT and Utilitac pardue came pretty good, didn't really need to touch them up, but I did anyway more out of habit than need, decent not bad, the D2 was a little soft though probably should up the HRC a couple points maybe, no point using D2 if you run it under 60 IMO.
Hogue Very impressive actually, I got the feeling they have professional sharpeners (Not just regular assembly workers, trained sharpeners) on the job. the edges were some of the best i've ever seen from a production knife. It was actually so good that I felt no need to even touch it, mirror finished and looked hand stropped to boot. I think Hogue do a damn fine job at sending out a sharp knife, no half assed finish either, probably the best edge i've seen on a folding knife was my Hogue EX-01, that cryo treated 154CM is no joke either, that stuff is professionally heat treated and has a very good fine grain, I love Hogues cryo treated 154CM.
Chris Reeve, interesting, not the sharpest, not finished to the level of Hogues, but not basic either, talking about how they grind the edge and geometry, especially on my Tanto 21, it has a complex compound, hollow ground blade concave, leading to a convex appleseed edge apex, very interesting, with a American tanto tip geometry without secondary bevel, that's not basic it's well thought out. A hollow ground blade that changes to a convex edge, like having your cake and eating it, cuts well and is robust right at the apex at the same time as having thin behind the edge geometry. I like it, it was sharp too, not as sharp as it could be but it shaved hair, I got it to paper towel shaving sharp on some cermaic hones now. But it was decent. I appreciated the complexity of the geometry the most.
Boker solingen, excellent blade finish and polish and geometry, but the edge itself was lacking quite a lot, I had to reprofile the tip as well, because it was slightly rounded on my Barlow. Good steel well heat treated, but the actual edge needed sharpening, it wasn't a good edge. Lovely knife though, very well made product, it seemed hand made to my eyes.
Boker plus The edges are actually better than Boker Solingen strangely enough, came sharper, but the build quality was nowhere near as good, but as for the apex itself they aren't terrible, not anything amazing but decently alright, slight touch up was needed, just a few runs and a bit of honing needed.
Rough Ryder Not amazing really, need touching up, the grinds are okay and the geometry is fine, steel is a little soft for my liking, it's average, had to touch them up though, not what I would call sharp.
ESEE Not bad, same goes with their folders from Taiwan, not bad at all, my ESEE folder from Taiwan came very similar to my RAT, probably sharpened by the same method and even people. Good edge didn't really need to do anythign to it, it's fine no problems.
KA-BAR honestly a let down, I figured it would come razor sharp, as they have almost legendary cult like following, but the edge was garbage, grind was off, looked like a drunk sailor was manning the belt. I could probably do better blindfolded. Wasn't anywhere near sharp. For their reputation I was not impressed with Ka-Bar edges (USA made ones, I've never handled one of their folders from Asia)
Schrade Pretty bad, their serrations were half decent I guess, but I was not impressed by their plain edges, I don't have experience with their older knives, only their new folders, and I think they are sub par. They are cheap though, so if they are below £50 then I'll let them slide for cost saving, I won't bash them as much as £100+ knives. but not very sharp honestly, and the knives are pretty crap too so I don't even care to waste time sharpening them, so my Schrades are still dull. Okay I'm getting a bit mean now I think i'll stop here.
I could add more but this post is getting rather long.
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