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primos said:
I'll take a XXL, please! Just tell me where to mail the check!
(Sorry I didn't get a chance to meet you in Atlanta, Terry. Next year!)
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Getting impatient...
- Thread starter Grapevine
- Start date
I'll take a XXL, please! Just tell me where to mail the check!
(Sorry I didn't get a chance to meet you in Atlanta, Terry. Next year!)
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RWS said:
I would say that the number of knives that gets damaged in very small compared to the number of knives that are taken to knife shows, but it does happen all the time. I have read about knives being dropped on the floor, on other knives and on the table. Makers have told me about people putting knives down on other knives and about knives being scratched from careless handling. Some people, trying to be helpful, even clean fingerprints off of blades with scratchy cloths.
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Can we please not make this thread into an attack of specific individuals? We are having a great discussion with good dialog from both sides. let's not change it now.
JR
JR
Les Robertson
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Hi Danbo,
Is this the same dealer the Keith and Terry were talking about. The one who actually gets a table at the show? Waits until after the show to pick up his knives and in some cases waits until the end of the show to buy knives from the makers?
Perhaps he is just picking up orders? It would make sense for a dealer with a table to have knives delievered to coincide with the show. Either way the knives are available for buyers to handle and inspect. It would also appear, that at least in the case of Terry, he sells the knives for the makers price.
This does not seem to be the norm for many of the dealers the RWS and Wulf have been talking about.
As I asked Joss, do you know for a fact what his business model is for attending shows and how he manages his inventory and procurement of same?
JR is right of course, if you can't prove your point. Perhaps you should not post. It seems that many people like to throw stones when they know the person is banned and cannot respond.
Danbo, I see that you post here all the time and contribute frequently. I don't think this is your intent.
Is this the same dealer the Keith and Terry were talking about. The one who actually gets a table at the show? Waits until after the show to pick up his knives and in some cases waits until the end of the show to buy knives from the makers?
Perhaps he is just picking up orders? It would make sense for a dealer with a table to have knives delievered to coincide with the show. Either way the knives are available for buyers to handle and inspect. It would also appear, that at least in the case of Terry, he sells the knives for the makers price.
This does not seem to be the norm for many of the dealers the RWS and Wulf have been talking about.
As I asked Joss, do you know for a fact what his business model is for attending shows and how he manages his inventory and procurement of same?
JR is right of course, if you can't prove your point. Perhaps you should not post. It seems that many people like to throw stones when they know the person is banned and cannot respond.
Danbo, I see that you post here all the time and contribute frequently. I don't think this is your intent.
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WoodWorkGhost said:
A few quick observations:
1) I can assure you that was not Joss' intent either.
2) Why would you assume Joss' comment was an attack or, to paraphrase your choice of words, "causing trouble" when he clearly stated that there was nothing wrong with the practice?
3) Weren't you the one who was asking repeatedly for others to "name names"?
No-one has suggested that Les, or any other dealer ever forced a maker to sell them a knife. How could he be crticized for purchasing from a willing seller?
Roger
Les Robertson
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Hi Roger,
Fair enough, I guess I should have asked for a clarification of what they meant.
I guess my perception was wrong.
Yes I am the one asking people to name names. So far only one has been mentioned. I guess that speaks well for Les that people have mentioned him in what appears to be mostly a positive light.
Thanks for the insight Roger.
Fair enough, I guess I should have asked for a clarification of what they meant.
I guess my perception was wrong.
Yes I am the one asking people to name names. So far only one has been mentioned. I guess that speaks well for Les that people have mentioned him in what appears to be mostly a positive light.
Thanks for the insight Roger.
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A Knifemaker/Bladesmith has an absolute right to sell his products to any willing buyer, for whatever price they agree upon, at any time. That is pretty obvious.
The absolute mystery to me, is WHY a maker would go to a show, and set up at great expense, only to blow out his inventory at a 30% discount to a purveyor, BEFORE he has a chance to sell his knives directly, at FULL price, to retail customers? Help me out here, there is obviously something that I am missing here.
The absolute mystery to me, is WHY a maker would go to a show, and set up at great expense, only to blow out his inventory at a 30% discount to a purveyor, BEFORE he has a chance to sell his knives directly, at FULL price, to retail customers? Help me out here, there is obviously something that I am missing here.
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Now that a name has been brought up, Les and I had a pretty good give and take debate in the last thread about this topic. A lot of members contributed to that thread. Les and I argued a lot and sometimes we even agreed with one another.
I pulled a direct quote from Les from that thread which was a reply addressed to me. It may be sort of taken out of context in that if I recall correctly we disagreed with one another more than agreed, which was fun.
"After re-reading all the posts, I find that I agree with you. I too would like to see the dealers you are referring to forced to wait until the show opens to have access to the custom knives.
You know the ones, those dealers who only attend, and don't set up at the shows. They show up early on Thursday and are found in the makers rooms or in the bars trying to buy knives before the show opens.
Many of these are the same dealers that Cut in Line, or try and get in early. By using a badge a maker or show promoter has given or sold to them. I agree with you, they should be banned from buying any knives until the show opens to the general public."
He also wrote
"As a dealer that actually sets up and not one of those deales who sneak in early, Shaking down those poor makers who they force to sell at a discount before the show opens
That is when I look at the makers work and offer to buy the knife on Sunday should it not sell. Having to pay for a table myself. I understand the expense and what it takes to be tied to a table for 3 days."
I pulled a direct quote from Les from that thread which was a reply addressed to me. It may be sort of taken out of context in that if I recall correctly we disagreed with one another more than agreed, which was fun.
"After re-reading all the posts, I find that I agree with you. I too would like to see the dealers you are referring to forced to wait until the show opens to have access to the custom knives.
You know the ones, those dealers who only attend, and don't set up at the shows. They show up early on Thursday and are found in the makers rooms or in the bars trying to buy knives before the show opens.
Many of these are the same dealers that Cut in Line, or try and get in early. By using a badge a maker or show promoter has given or sold to them. I agree with you, they should be banned from buying any knives until the show opens to the general public."
He also wrote
"As a dealer that actually sets up and not one of those deales who sneak in early, Shaking down those poor makers who they force to sell at a discount before the show opens
That is when I look at the makers work and offer to buy the knife on Sunday should it not sell. Having to pay for a table myself. I understand the expense and what it takes to be tied to a table for 3 days."
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RogerP said:
In the 1993 movie, "Rising Sun" starring Sean Connery and Wesley Snipes, a Japanese C.E.O. responds to a question regarding buy-outs and take-overs of American companies:
"If you don't want us to buy, don't sell."
As collectors, I don't believe we'll ever have the slightest influence over the selling/buying practices that a maker and dealer agree to in private. Each is a businessman/woman in a free market society.
Les Robertson
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Ok, so we have dealers who buy on Thursday or on the morning of the show before it opens.
I know I keep beating this drum, but as Cockroach Farm pointed out (Great movie by the way). If you don't want the dealers to buy before the shows then let makers know. Dealers buy because the makers are there to sell knives.
After all isn't the object of the exercise in regards to a custom knife show for the table holders to sell most if not all of their knives? While it seems to enrage some, others state it doesn't bother them (so the poll and this thread show).
As for dealers, the makers are the source of the product they sell. Consequently, it is in their best interest (and those of their clients) to get as many of the very best knives that they can. After all....this is their job.
Seems like there are several different practices for obtaining knives at shows exhibited by dealers. Of the group it would seem the way Les (and Im sure others do) as the best of both worlds for collectors and makers. Get a table at the show, buy knives before the show (either orders being filled or buying a knife out right). This helps the maker cover their expenses for the show. At the same time the makers knives are still available for the buyer to handle and purchase the knife for the same price as the maker charges.
Additionally, Les offers to leave knives on the makers tables for the show. As it has been pointed out, this could be risky. Also he is there to buy knives that did not sell during the show on Sunday. Again, this seems to be a very good situation for the seller.
So is this the happy medium? If the makers feel it is necessary to sell before the show opens. To sell only to dealers who either have a table at the show or will be willing to leave the knives on the table so the show goers can see them.
Another question, what percentage of makers at a show does this "selling out before the show opens" apply to. At most shows I have been to there have been plenty of knives for sale...even on Sunday.
If this is limited to a very small percentage and you understand that this "in demand maker" will either sell out before the show or right after it opens. Why wouldn't you do what JR recommened much earlier in the thread?
By doing so it would seem that you could get your knife and then you could leave it on the makers table all weekend for others to handle and admire. Hopefully, they won't drop it or steal it.
I know I keep beating this drum, but as Cockroach Farm pointed out (Great movie by the way). If you don't want the dealers to buy before the shows then let makers know. Dealers buy because the makers are there to sell knives.
After all isn't the object of the exercise in regards to a custom knife show for the table holders to sell most if not all of their knives? While it seems to enrage some, others state it doesn't bother them (so the poll and this thread show).
As for dealers, the makers are the source of the product they sell. Consequently, it is in their best interest (and those of their clients) to get as many of the very best knives that they can. After all....this is their job.
Seems like there are several different practices for obtaining knives at shows exhibited by dealers. Of the group it would seem the way Les (and Im sure others do) as the best of both worlds for collectors and makers. Get a table at the show, buy knives before the show (either orders being filled or buying a knife out right). This helps the maker cover their expenses for the show. At the same time the makers knives are still available for the buyer to handle and purchase the knife for the same price as the maker charges.
Additionally, Les offers to leave knives on the makers tables for the show. As it has been pointed out, this could be risky. Also he is there to buy knives that did not sell during the show on Sunday. Again, this seems to be a very good situation for the seller.
So is this the happy medium? If the makers feel it is necessary to sell before the show opens. To sell only to dealers who either have a table at the show or will be willing to leave the knives on the table so the show goers can see them.
Another question, what percentage of makers at a show does this "selling out before the show opens" apply to. At most shows I have been to there have been plenty of knives for sale...even on Sunday.
If this is limited to a very small percentage and you understand that this "in demand maker" will either sell out before the show or right after it opens. Why wouldn't you do what JR recommened much earlier in the thread?
By doing so it would seem that you could get your knife and then you could leave it on the makers table all weekend for others to handle and admire. Hopefully, they won't drop it or steal it.
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Guys,
So, just to recap my thoughts, selling to a dealer at a show (at a discount, because he IS a dealer and has guaranteed payment), and then affording the opportunity to sell the knife in question at the show or even on that maker's table is NOT absurd.
That knife is bound to be sold again anyway. Why not there? Why does it need to pack away and be sold over the net (most likely) to someone who has made no investment of time and travel to actually participate in this show?
Letting the knife sit on the table and allowing the MAKER to sell it for him?? PREPOSTEROUS!!! Hmmmmm.....I don't think so....
The maker should wish that ALL his knives find a good home. If *he* has chosen to sell to a dealer at a discount, then he is fully aware that there will be profit made from the dealer's wise investment. He is already there, why can't he help facilitate that sale? (This 'extra work' could be built into the makers selling discount to the dealer. It's a real value to the dealer to have this knife SOLD, so he should also be willing to take a cut.)
The question that spotlights the dealer is his markup. How much is reasonable? Nick used a figure of 30% discount to purchase, but I think that 10-15% is probably more likely. But THEN there may be the 15% bump up to make it an even 30% markup. That is what you might expect to pay on a website. (Not all. Some websites sellat maker's price) But like I had mentioned, if the dealer is savvy, he could cut his overhead expenses and sell that knife at 'original value' or just a smaller bump, like 5-10%.
This scenario illustrates why a very successful maker does NOT need to do this type of transaction at a show. He will sell that knife and see first-hand what *could* have gone into HIS pocket if he didn't sell out beforehand.
A not as established maker will get the most value out of this arrangement, as he is guaranteed his knife being sold whether by a collector or by his dealer. That's his 'insurance'.
Lastly, I wish ALL dealers to have great knives in their hands, too. But the show might be best served to place orders, rather than take existing knives from committed collectors AT THE SHOW.
This still makes good sense to me.
Coop
So, just to recap my thoughts, selling to a dealer at a show (at a discount, because he IS a dealer and has guaranteed payment), and then affording the opportunity to sell the knife in question at the show or even on that maker's table is NOT absurd.
That knife is bound to be sold again anyway. Why not there? Why does it need to pack away and be sold over the net (most likely) to someone who has made no investment of time and travel to actually participate in this show?
Letting the knife sit on the table and allowing the MAKER to sell it for him?? PREPOSTEROUS!!! Hmmmmm.....I don't think so....
The maker should wish that ALL his knives find a good home. If *he* has chosen to sell to a dealer at a discount, then he is fully aware that there will be profit made from the dealer's wise investment. He is already there, why can't he help facilitate that sale? (This 'extra work' could be built into the makers selling discount to the dealer. It's a real value to the dealer to have this knife SOLD, so he should also be willing to take a cut.)
The question that spotlights the dealer is his markup. How much is reasonable? Nick used a figure of 30% discount to purchase, but I think that 10-15% is probably more likely. But THEN there may be the 15% bump up to make it an even 30% markup. That is what you might expect to pay on a website. (Not all. Some websites sellat maker's price) But like I had mentioned, if the dealer is savvy, he could cut his overhead expenses and sell that knife at 'original value' or just a smaller bump, like 5-10%.
This scenario illustrates why a very successful maker does NOT need to do this type of transaction at a show. He will sell that knife and see first-hand what *could* have gone into HIS pocket if he didn't sell out beforehand.
A not as established maker will get the most value out of this arrangement, as he is guaranteed his knife being sold whether by a collector or by his dealer. That's his 'insurance'.
Lastly, I wish ALL dealers to have great knives in their hands, too. But the show might be best served to place orders, rather than take existing knives from committed collectors AT THE SHOW.
This still makes good sense to me.
Coop
Just because a dealler is there early doesn't always mean he gets what he wants either. I've heard of deallers getting skunked even on a Thurseday night. As for a maker selling out early remember makers like to buy stuff at shows too. In fact for alot of them it's nice to hand pick materials they want. Also haveing a table empty or not gives them a good place to talk to people that are interested in their work, and I'd bet the maker has a knife on him he'd be glad to show anyone who wanted to see it and his work. Personally I don't tell people how to sell their stuff and don't like anyone telling me how to buy what I want.
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I don't really get the idea of a maker not selling to dealers, just to sell it for a bigger profit to customers.
In most cases, some of these dealers helped the maker become as in demand as he/she is. The dealer promoted the maker on the internet, in conversations, and at shows the maker couldn't make. Early in a maker's career, that dealer may have been the biggest chunk of their show sells, helping them pay the show expenses.
Now, should a well established maker start selling to any joe schmo who walks up claiming to be a new custom knife dealer? Not in my mind. I think the makers are best served in selling to the guys who helped get them to the top. It doesn't make sense to me to start stiffing the ones who helped you get where you are to make a few extra bucks in the process.
JR
In most cases, some of these dealers helped the maker become as in demand as he/she is. The dealer promoted the maker on the internet, in conversations, and at shows the maker couldn't make. Early in a maker's career, that dealer may have been the biggest chunk of their show sells, helping them pay the show expenses.
Now, should a well established maker start selling to any joe schmo who walks up claiming to be a new custom knife dealer? Not in my mind. I think the makers are best served in selling to the guys who helped get them to the top. It doesn't make sense to me to start stiffing the ones who helped you get where you are to make a few extra bucks in the process.
JR
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Coop, I'm surprised by your comment on my scenario. Do you think as a full-time knife maker I just pulled a figure of 30% out of my a$$??? It seems odd you would be correcting me on a dealer's cut. How many dealers have you sold your knives through?
For those of you who can't seem to understand trying to get the most profit from your knives. Try depending on paying your electric bill, your grocery bill, credi cards....etc, etc. by what you make on your knives, and then see how you feel about profits.
Nick
For those of you who can't seem to understand trying to get the most profit from your knives. Try depending on paying your electric bill, your grocery bill, credi cards....etc, etc. by what you make on your knives, and then see how you feel about profits.
Nick
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Nick,
chill out a bit. First off, not all makers give a 30% discount. Bob Terzuola has posted on here that his is 10% I believe I have heard several dealers mention 30% is standard for new makers, but some of the more well established makers are less.
Also, no one said profit is a bad thing. However, screwing the people who got you where you are is. Sometimes, sacrificing a few dollars will make you a whole lot more in the long run.
JR
chill out a bit. First off, not all makers give a 30% discount. Bob Terzuola has posted on here that his is 10% I believe I have heard several dealers mention 30% is standard for new makers, but some of the more well established makers are less.
Also, no one said profit is a bad thing. However, screwing the people who got you where you are is. Sometimes, sacrificing a few dollars will make you a whole lot more in the long run.
JR
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I have heard that there are makers that don't discount their knives at all for dealers.
Nick, if you are giving the dealers that you work with a 30% discount then in my opinion you are giving them too much. You have gained an excellent reputation and are popular enough that you should not have to give up that much of your profit.
I took part in a thread on another forum where it was stated that some makers up their selling price to cover for the discount that they give dealers. Meaning that if they could sell the knife quite comfortably for $500.00, they make their selling price $650.00 or $700.00 and then discount it to the dealer from that price. That is a practice that I have a hard time accepting, but I suppose if the maker can sell all the knives he makes at that higher price then that is the price his/her knives should be .
It would appear from the tone of a few of the posts here that some people think less of Les for purchasing knives at the beginning of a show. Les makes his living by selling knives. If he can purchase knives at the beginning of a show then all the best to him. He should get them when he can.
Though I still think that every maker that signs a contract to exhibit at a show should have some knives on his/her table, I also think that a maker should go about his business in any way he/she feels is right, as long as that way is ethical. Pre-selling knives is going to continue. It is just my hope that the makers that do this will keep at least a couple of knives to have on their table when the show begins. Maybe I am dreaming, but there is nothing wrong with being a dreamer.
Amazing the different directions this thread has taken, but it has been fun and it has really lived up this forum.
Nick, if you are giving the dealers that you work with a 30% discount then in my opinion you are giving them too much. You have gained an excellent reputation and are popular enough that you should not have to give up that much of your profit.
I took part in a thread on another forum where it was stated that some makers up their selling price to cover for the discount that they give dealers. Meaning that if they could sell the knife quite comfortably for $500.00, they make their selling price $650.00 or $700.00 and then discount it to the dealer from that price. That is a practice that I have a hard time accepting, but I suppose if the maker can sell all the knives he makes at that higher price then that is the price his/her knives should be .
It would appear from the tone of a few of the posts here that some people think less of Les for purchasing knives at the beginning of a show. Les makes his living by selling knives. If he can purchase knives at the beginning of a show then all the best to him. He should get them when he can.
Though I still think that every maker that signs a contract to exhibit at a show should have some knives on his/her table, I also think that a maker should go about his business in any way he/she feels is right, as long as that way is ethical. Pre-selling knives is going to continue. It is just my hope that the makers that do this will keep at least a couple of knives to have on their table when the show begins. Maybe I am dreaming, but there is nothing wrong with being a dreamer.
Amazing the different directions this thread has taken, but it has been fun and it has really lived up this forum.