Getting impatient...

Keith,

So the NFL should be required to have tickets at the gate on Super Bowl Sunday?

If a maker can sell everything he has, 10 minutes before the door opens, I have no problem with it. I don't think anyone should force a maker to refuse a sell. By requiring them to have knives on the table, you are forcing them to turn away sells.

Also, from earlier in this thread and the poll thread, why should a dealer keep sold knives on his table? They run the risk of the knives being sold or damaged. I wouldn't want to take that resonsibility.

Pre-selling is a common business practice. It is ethical, fair, and available for every consumer. Some will take advantage, and some will be left behind.

JR
 
Jeremy, in my opinion your analogy is incredibly poor. What I think is a more apropos analogy is this; once people are inside the stadium at the Superbowl, should they get to see what they came for (a football game) or should the teams be allowed to not play the game. After all, they sold all the tickets already, right? What is the purpose of playing the game? To please the people that came to see it is why. If people that go to knife shows don't get to see the knives that interest them then they are not going to go back the next year. Especially if they have to travel a long way and spend a great deal of money to get there. If people stop going to knife shows then the shows will not be able to continue operating.
 
Wrong, Keith. We are talking about the business practice of pre-selling. People do it for sports, concerts, etc...

Let's look at it further. Let's say a sporting even, such as a college football game, has tickets available for purchase at the gate. You get there and stand in line and get your tickets. You get in the stadium, and you are 50 rows up because all the good seats are taken early from pre-selling.

That is the same practice going on here. Pre-selling a product before the big event.

I honestly can't see what is so hard about picking up the phone and securing a purchase.

Since you don't like my football analogy, let's try this.

Let's say there was a really popular computer game you wanted. The store has pre-orders to get the game reserved. You don't reserve yours, so you walk into the store the day the game is released. The store is already sold out and you don't get what you wanted. The games never even made the shelf, because they were all pre-sold.

Also, let's say there was a game you wanted that was popular and hard to find. Would you drive to the store wasting time and money if it isn't there, or would you call before you left and have them hold the game for you?

These are just common examples of securing a purchase before you spend your time and money to go in search of these things.

JR
 
Jeremy Reynolds said:
Let's say there was a really popular computer game you wanted. The store has pre-orders to get the game reserved. You don't reserve yours, so you walk into the store the day the game is released. The store is already sold out and you don't get what you wanted. The games never even made the shelf, because they were all pre-sold.JR
Click to expand...

How 'bout we say the store advertised that they would have "Game X" for sale and for viewing, and charged you admission for the privilege of being able to view and potentially buy. You're first in line when the store opens and pay your admission. No games. Fair?

Are you likely to return for their next promotion of "Game Y"?

Would you have gone in the first place if you knew there was no way you would get to see the game much less have a chance to buy it?

At the end of the day I'm not sure these analogies are particularly helpful, but...


Roger

Edited to add the following...

Does it not come down to a question of degree - at least partially? If Joe Bladesmith - a very much in-demand maker pre-sells some of his knives to dealers and prior customers that's one thing. But if this same maker decides to sell his entire table to one dealer the night before, or while setting up before the public get in, is that not somewhat different? What about all the show promotions that proudly announced that that Joe Bladesmith would have a table a their show? Is it not at least implicit in that announcememnt that Joe would have something on his table?
 
Also, let's make a quick add-on to the list comment.

If I secure a purchase or two, it basicly means I have to make it to the show to pick them up. Getting me in the doors gets me looking at knives, other then the ones I secured up front. Getting me in the doors allows other makers a chance to sell me on their wares, as well as interact with them.

2 years ago, I had 2 knives secured pre-show. I walked out of there with 8-10 knives.

Going to a show is a way for me to get the knives I want immediately. So, I get them secured, and I pick them up. I get to meet the maker and not worry about whether or not what I want will still be there. I also am free to rome around looking for other knives that grab my attention without the pressure of scrambling around to try and find the couple of things I really want, cause I order got them taken care of.

JR
 
so roger, would you pay money to go to a show if you knew the knives you really wanted weren't there?

That is the risk you take without pre-securing. If I am going to pay to go to a show, I will make 100% sure what I want is there and secured for me.

JR
 
I think Wulf's comparison of someone cutting in line in front of everyone else while they are respectfully waiting there turn is a real good analogy for what I feel is going on.
Also, Keith's point about there being a lot of other times during the year that dealers and makers can get together, instead of at the shows, to do business is a good point.
 
Wow, this thread has really blown up.

I empathize with both sides here.

As a maker, especially a full time one, you want to sell what you take to a show.

As a buyer, you'd like to actually have the option of buying some knives when you take the time and money to go visit a show rather than find them all to be sold before you even get in the doors.

If a guy sells a knife on Thursday it's because he was offered the money. It's not a "bonus" to seel it sooner than later, it's just the simple notion of selling it AT ALL.

If you go to work and one of your supervisors says, "I'll pay you today (Thursday) for sure, but you've gotta take your pay-check right now". And another says..."Well, we MIGHT pay you on Sunday, but we're not really sure, hang around and find out."

You'd most assuredly take your check on Thursday. That's exactly what it comes down to for a maker at a show.

However, with the back-log I have now, and the amount of interest I get from emails all the time, AND the fact that I can send a knife to BladeGallery anytime and they'll sell it for me... it's not to tough for me to find a buyer for a knife. Because of this, I have decided to try to keep any knives I take to shows available for sale to regular buyers when the show opens. Now if I sell them all in the first 5 minutes, that's absolutely GREAT...but at least I left the option open to more people.

I don't know how well this will work out...hopefully it won't come back to bite me. But it seems like a decent thing to try :)

Jason Knight did this exact thing at the Reno show with TEN fantastic knives. He turned down all purveyors and said he brought the knives to sell out-right to collectors. By Sunday all 10 were sold. Quite an accomplishment, I do say.

Nick
 
Jeremy,

I have pre-secured knives prior to attending a show. I know this can be accomplished. But I am trying to look at this from a point of view a bit broader than just what's best for me . (Yes, years of therapy have led to the realization that the world does not in fact revolve around me. ;) )

Which is why I bring up the question of degree. And it is why I still await your answer to my questions in the previous post. I pose the simple question - is it fair to show-goers for a maker to pre-sell all his knives before the doors open? Your response seems to be "Well, as long as I've got mine"

The question is most pointed when we are talking about a maker who is sufficiently in-demand to be reasonably sure of selling his knives over the course of the show. As I mentioned in a (much) earlier post in this thread, I have much sympathy for the fact that for many makers, attending a show is a real financial risk with real-world "making ends meet" consequences.

Nick - thanks for weighing-in.

Cheers,

Roger
 
Roger,

I believe I already answered that. Why should we limit the number of knives a maker can sell when he wants? I am not going to tell a maker he has to hold onto a knife that is a sure sell. If he can sell them all, more power to him. A lot of makers that get tables at show don't bring any knives for sale, only showing knives they brought to deliver. They are there to meet people and take more orders.

I think makers should be able to sell what they want, to whom they want, when they want.

JR
 
Here is another monkey in the wrench. What about those dealers and makers who pay for tables. Is it now incumbent on the promoter to not only provide customers, but customers who will buy knives and not just look?

Also, what level of responsibility does the promoter incur if the table holders don't pre-sell knives. Then those very people who complain about pre-selling don't come to the show or worse yet decide (for what ever reason) not to buy the knife?

What about those of you who feel so strongly about makers not selling before the show. What level of responsibility would you feel to now buy knives? After all they were not pre-sold so you could look at them.

If you didn't buy any knives, would you still feel it is the reponsibility of the table holder to again to not pre-sell knives at the next years show?

If you were one of these table holders, how many shows would you do before you became so annoyed that you began to pre-sell?

Shows can be a very expensive proposition, especially if there is much travel involved. Like it or not for most of the table holders this is a business. Your business must maintain a postive cash flow, if it doesn't you are no longer in business.

Also, two items:

1) No dealer or customer can buy a knife before the show opens....if the maker doesn't sell it to them. So try and keep your focus on who is really the culprit in your eye.

2) This thread started because an individual was getting impatient waiting for dealers to update their sites.

I wonder why he wasn't getting impatient about makers updating their sites?
 
Hi WWG,
I don't think that there can be any written knife show rules about this practice. It has to be a self-governing act on behalf of that star maker to not pre-sell.

The makers I'm referring to know that they can sell everything at the show rather quickly. The promoter also knows they'll sell out.

As Nick Wheeler said, "I have decided to try to keep any knives I take to shows available for sale to regular buyers when the show opens."

This is because of who he is at this point of his carrer. He can sell out at a show and he knows it. We all know it.

His gesture to have knives at his table when the doors open is a self-governing one born out of consideration for the showgoer/collector because he knows how popular his knives are through sells experience.

More makers in his class should probably make similar considerations, IMO.
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
I wonder why he wasn't getting impatient about makers updating their sites?
Click to expand...

Maybe because the makers pre-sold all their knives to dealers and special customers and/or show attendees and don't have any reason to update their websites?

It is true that shows can be a large expense, but how expensive is it to advertise in magazines? Though it would be at least nice for a maker to break even when doing a show, it should not be considered a necessity. Shows can be some of the best advertising a maker can do, especially the larger ones that draw international attendees. It gets his/her knives in front of the exact people that are looking to purchase them. At least part of the cost of doing a show could, and I think should be looked at as being part of the advertising budget. (I know, I know, here he goes of on another tangent) :rolleyes:

Nick, I don't think it will come back to bite you at all. Your knives are in demand and will sell without having to pre-sell them at shows. As Roger has pointed out, this would be the case with any of the really popular makers. There is no need for makers like yourself to ever pre-sell their knives.
 
RWS,

I believe you are being totally unreasonable now. Who decides which makers can pre-sell and which can't? No one is garunteed a sell out. Is it probable for some? Most definately.

I don't think it's fair at all to say "if you know you can sell out, you can't pre-sell. but everyone else can." That is foolish.

Again, makers should sell the number of knives they want to sell, to the person whom they want to sell them too, when they want to sell them.

JR
 
Let me share an amusing anecdote from "the other side of the table" if I may. First off, I don't know if anyone would consider me one of those "in demand" makers that has been mentioned, but I am full-time, with about a two year backlog, and I have sold out at all the shows I've done, though I have not done that many.

I did not do shows until last year because I've had more than I can handle with the Internet sales. Well, I'd had folks after me to do the shows, both my mentors and customers for some time. I was told, "You must get out there for the exposure, and to show gratitude for your customers. Otherwise, you will hurt yourself in the long run".

So last year I decided yes, I have to give up the shop time, fall further behind, and pay out the expenses for a table, motel, food, gas, etc. I have got to show current customers how much I appreciate them, and I've got to get my face out there and talk with new potential customers.

This also meant even longer hours seven days a week because I had to do more orders to get money to do the show, and had to somehow come up with yet even more knives FOR the show.

Now, cut to one of the shows. I don't know how I did it, but I managed to squeeze out four knives for the table. I actually had nine knives to put on the table, but here's the deal. Three were orders that were being delivered at the show. Two were knives that were loaners from the owners. They loaned them to me out of the goodness of their hearts. Both were of a style other than the ones I'd managed to make for the show. The owners felt that these might generate some orders, and they wanted me to do good.

Anyway, the doors are about to open and I tell my wife, "I've got to go to the can. If a dealer comes by right off the bat, explain to them that we only have four knives that are actually for sale, and we must give the general public first shot". After reading threads like this one I didn't want to piss any customers off. Remember, I'm here to make friends and show my gratitude.

S-o-o, as fate would have it, the fellow sitting directly behind me was a dealer. He said, "You need to remember that dealers are your customers too". Oh great, we are 2 1/2 seconds into the show and I've already made an enemy who will be sitting right behind me for the next three days.

Was fate through with me yet? Nope. When I got back from the can, my wife said that the first person by the table was a dealer. She told him exactly what I'd told her to. It did not go over well. That dealer did not come back to my table for the weekend. Uh-huh. We are two minutes into the show, and I have now made two enemies -- both dealers.

By the way, neither of the two was Les Robertson in case anyone is wondering. The way Les always handles it is to come by my table and say, "If you have any left over, I want them".

Alright, I'm feeling pretty low by this time. This is not at all what I had envisioned for the weekend. Well, here comes the first Joe Public potential customer and hey! -- he's about to stop at my table! He's say's, "How much is this one?"

Of course, that was one of the ones that was an order and just being delivered. His reaction? "I can't believe you guys have the audacity to come in here with all your knives pre-sold! This just pisses me off!" And off he storms with me waving my arms and saying, "But... but... but..."

Okie Dokey. I'm four minutes into the first day of a three day show. I'm broke, completely worn out, and the first three people even in the vicinity of my table hate my guts.

Well, things did turn around, and I did in fact sell out. But I learned that no matter what I do, I will not be able to make everyone happy. Someone is going to be pissed off no matter what. The moral? There's not one. I just wanted ya'll to hear an interesting story from the maker's perspective. :D
 
Keith,

WWG typod. he was speaking of the dealer sites not being updated, not the makers.

People want to see what the makers get at shows, so they have the oppertunity to score knives without being there.

JR
 
Jeremy Reynolds said:
RWS,
I don't think it's fair at all to say "if you know you can sell out, you can't pre-sell. but everyone else can." That is foolish.
JR
Click to expand...
JR,
What part of self-governing did you miss?
I don't believe you can force anyone to not pre-sell. However, if there was a time for a maker to be somewhat obligated to showgoers not to pre-sell to dealers this would be it, IMO.

Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. Again, it would be self-governing by the maker himself.

If he chooses not to pre-sell he doesn't have to even if every other maker in the building is pre-selling.

I think Nick's and certain other maker's self-governing choice in this regard is not foolish.
 
I enjoyed Nick and Terry's stories. I agree that makers should not pre sell. If I were a dealer, I'd be royally pissed off at a maker who refuses to sell to me DURING the show - after all, everyone has the same chances to get in and to the table.

My turn to tell a little story. People here might know that I like Don Fogg's stuff. This year, he attended the Reno ABS show, and I think it was his first show (where he had a table) in quite a while. He posted pictures of the one piece he was taking with him, and at first it didn't stroke my fancy. But, knowing Don, I knew that pictures couldn't do justice to the piece. I was resolved to be the first guy at his table, and earn myself a "right of refusal".

The show opened at 11am for VIPs (anyone can be one if they know a bladesmith or two), and I was at the door before 7am. I didn't move from the spot, feeling border line ridiculous at times - turning down invites from the nice ABS ladies to go have a cofffee and mingle with the bladesmiths pre-opening. This being said, I was the first customer into the show, I went straight to Don's table, and after 5min, bought his one piece. I then went straight to Nick's table, but he was sold out - 15min after opening. This is how those things work, and in my mind, this is the kind of commitment we, as collectors, have to have if we want to have our pick of the show.
 
Hi Joss,
In your opinion would it be OK for the dealer to buy during the show at his regular discounted rate or should they pay retail at the show?
 
Jeremy, I don't think it a typo. His comment was as follows:

2) This thread started because an individual was getting impatient waiting for dealers to update their sites.

I wonder why he wasn't getting impatient about makers updating their sites?
Click to expand...

It is obvious from the posts in this thread that there are some pretty strong opinions on this topic. My view is this: If I go to a show I want to see knives. I also want to talk to people, but one of my main focuses is to see knives. No matter what, some makers are going to have empty tables when I get there. I expect this and it won't bother me.

When we talk about the expense that a maker has when doing a show we seem to overlook the fact that many attendees have just as high or higher costs just to go to a show and we have no chance of getting any of that back. If I am going to put out that kind of money then I had better be pleased with my experience or I am not going to return. Seeing knives is a big part of that experience.

I like the rule that was instituted for the ABS show in Reno. Makers must have knives on their tables when the show opens. I do not see why other shows can not have this same rule. It is because of this rule that I plan on making the ABS show the only one that I will attend next year. Well, that and the fact that I have a predilection for the forged blade.
 
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