Getting the most out of your Norton Crystolon fine stone

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maximus83

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What tips could Crystolon users suggest for getting an edge as sharp as possible using just the Crystolon fine stone (or the fine side of the Crystolon combination stone)?

Background:
  • Experimenting with what is the most basic cost-effective setup you can use to get a good utility edge from a single stone. Trying the Norton JB8 for this role.
  • How I use it now:
    • Use with Norton honing oil.
    • On the fine side:
      • Start with slicing strokes with moderate pressure to set the toothy scratch pattern and get consistent bevels. I allow some slurry to accumulate during this stage. I don't consciously try to create or use it, it forms as a side effect and I ignore until this stage is done. I'll keep doing slices until a clean bevel and scratch pattern are visible, and a continuous apex that doesn't reflect light at any point.
      • Wipe swarf off, add a couple drops of oil, now use light strokes to finish and refine the apex.
    • Results: decent, but not great sharpness. Tried with 2 kitchen knives and 2 folders, all 'soft' stainless steels. Directly off the stone, pre-strop, I get a super coarse utility edge that will shave arm hair with significant friction, it will slice small chunks off of newsprint pages, and even push-cut cross-grain, with occasional hangups. It has a small burr if any, and even working that further on strop doesn't make much difference. Seems like one could do better, based on old threads. For example this one by HeavyHanded HeavyHanded , where he gets a blade to clean cross-cuts and shaving facial hair, from the Crystolon fine.
Should I consider this as good as it gets, from this stone? Or can I do better?
 
Maybe try this.
Sharpen your knife by other means to the sharpest you can, and what you're happy with.
Without using the knife, continue sharpening on the Norton fine side with lightest stroke possible and see how far it degrades, and where it stops.
In other words, go backwards in the process until it levels out. This should tell you what it's limit is?
 
Sure that makes sense to try in a comparative sense. If I wasn't using the Norton Crystolon fine as the first/base grit to apex with, in my ordinary home sharpening routine, I'd be using either the Arctic Fox (400), or my DMT coarse (320). Both of those consistently get better results and in fact produce quite impressive edges that I use as finished/working edges, despite how coarse they are. I can sharpen everything I own directly off one of those 2 stones, optionally followed by a Spydie UF ceramic, and/or a strop to refine, but even these finishing steps are optional because the AF, and the DMT coarse, are such high performers.

The Crystolon combi with the fine side is also quite good, I can do a lot with it, and especially like the versatility of this stone since you can sharpen every type of steel with it, and you can profile as well as create a finished/working edge. But....the 'fine' side isn't getting things quite as sharp as I'd like. I don't know if it's technique--things like how I use/don't use the slurry, varied pressure, etc.--or if I'm just hitting the limits of this grit/material combination, and it doesn't get a lot better than that without moving on to another grit and stone.
 
I think pressure on the final strokes are critical to seeing a finer edge off this stone. Then strop it to remove the burr on a leather strop w/ slurry. Or capture the slurry grit off the stone on paper and strop on that. Both these steps will improve the
edge. DM
 
David Martin said:
I think pressure on the final strokes are critical to seeing a finer edge off this stone. Then strop it to remove the burr on a leather strop w/ slurry. Or capture the slurry grit off the stone on paper and strop on that. Both these steps will improve the
edge. DM
Click to expand...

This is what I wondered. I'm already going with lighter strokes at the end, and then stropping on a hardwood block + compound. The lighter strokes bumped up the end results quite a bit, so I'm there on that. But my strop isn't making a huge difference.

Maybe in this case, I need to strop on leather or balsa, something with just a bit of give to it, to help remove a really fine burr?
 
Ok made huge progress, now this thing is where I want it to be. What I did different: more light passes on the Crystolon (about 45 per side with a clean stone), and more passes on strop + compound to eliminate burr. I think basically just more time on the stone and the strop was what it needed. I'm satisfied, you can definitely get knives extremely sharp using merely a Norton Crystolon and a strop.

Result:
  • 3 finger sticky, + thumbnail test.
  • Easily shaves arm hair, like my other knives sharpened on other stones.
  • Cuts slices off PC paper, off newsprint, and off thin receipt paper.
  • Push-cuts newsprint and PC paper cross-grain.
  • Slices thru 2 ply toilet paper (after initially piercing).
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David Martin said:
I think pressure on the final strokes are critical to seeing a finer edge off this stone. Then strop it to remove the burr on a leather strop w/ slurry. Or capture the slurry grit off the stone on paper and strop on that. Both these steps will improve the
edge. DM
Click to expand...

That.^

I'm finding with my SiC stones and any others, that as my ability to regulate pressure improves, AND as my ability to steadily control angle improves, results keep getting better overall. Keep looking for and experimenting with ways to improve at those things, and it'll pay off. Also pay attention to how you rely on feedback from the stone, and also how feedback changes with use of different lubrication on the stones. Finding the 'right' feedback should be dependant on finding which method gives you the best results based on feel coming back through your fingertips.

Some improvement may also come as the stone breaks in with use.


David
 
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Use with oil to set the edge and let the stone dry up/wipe it off to finish. Very light passes being mindful to deburr as well as possible. It will still be somewhat coarse by most standards though is possible to shave some armhair and shearcut crossgrain newsprint right off the stone.

Amount of pressure and good condition are very important - no glazing or loading. On the increased surface area of a chisel or plane iron you can get a more refined edge yet again, shaving armhair pretty cleanly and crossing endgrain pine to a wet look. Not as nice as it can get with a couple of finer stones, but in most cases will be a lot sharper than the factory edge.

You can also cross the scratch pattern a la CS and others, making a 'finer' edge at the expense of some draw-cutting aggression.
 
Agreed. Mine is a broke in stone. I can't recall what HeavyHand was using on his stone as a lubricant. On mine I was using mineral oil. He my use soapy water. My edges coming off that stone will cleanly slice copy paper and shave arm hair and has no burrs. A quick, decent edge but not as refined as one coming off the fine India stone. Perhaps w/ more stropping and it would equal the other. DM
(HH) Agreed-- sharper than most factory edges.
 
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^David and David: Oops wait, did you mean MORE pressure on the final strokes? I was using lighter pressure on final strokes, I got better results this afternoon as I kept doing that but just spent more total time/strokes on the stone, then on the strop. Wasn't clear if you meant actually using more pressure toward the end on the stone.
 
maximus83 said:
^David and David: Oops wait, did you mean MORE pressure on the final strokes? I was using lighter pressure on final strokes, I got better results this afternoon as I kept doing that but just spent more total time/strokes on the stone, then on the strop. Wasn't clear if you meant actually using more pressure toward the end on the stone.
Click to expand...

Definitely LIGHTER pressure. But being able to fully regulate it, at will, is what makes a big difference. It's more challenging to keep it lighter (and still lighter, and lighter), so focus on improving that. Not just simply 'easing up' on it; but maybe altering your hold on the knife (including the handle/butt end), or the position on the blade where you apply fingertip pressure, in order to reduce the pressure felt at the apex's point of contact. Lots of ways to change it in a heavier or lighter direction; so try a lot of things, to see how they make a difference.


David
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
Definitely LIGHTER pressure. But being able to fully regulate it, at will, is what makes a big difference. It's more challenging to keep it lighter (and still lighter, and lighter), so focus on improving that. Not just simply 'easing up' on it; but maybe altering your hold on the knife (including the handle/butt end), or the position on the blade where you apply fingertip pressure, in order to reduce the pressure felt at the apex's point of contact. Lots of ways to change it in a heavier or lighter direction; so try a lot of things, to see how they make a difference.
David
Click to expand...

Ok good to know.

Related Q: Do you ever alter--not sure how to phrase this--the LENGTH of your stroke on the stone? I've started to play with not only using lighter strokes toward the end of sharpening on a coarse stone (regardless whether Crystolon, AF, or DMT), but also not sweeping my stroke so far down the stone in such a large arc. Basically, the total length of my stroke from the point where I begin at the heel, to the point where I end at the tip, is a shorter distance on the stone.
 
Because of a conversation I had w/ 42Blades, I don't sweep much. I push down the stone with about 1" sweep over. Which gets me to the
belly on most blades and in that area I have to lift and handle it differently anyway. I try to keep the edge teeth more straight. Especially the last few strokes. DM
Yes, use light stokes.
 
Yes it seems intuitive that there must be a difference in the resulting scratch pattern and edge characteristics that you get, depending whether you do long arcing strokes down the stone, or shorter strokes like you're talking about. Thing is, I don't know if this is something you want to vary intentionally to get different effects.

FortyTwoBlades FortyTwoBlades , care to comment?
 
The slope of the scratch impacts the aggression of the edge in pulling vs. pushing strokes. A scratch running perpendicular to the edge will cut with equal aggression in both directions. As the slant runs more in one direction, the aggression increases in that direction while decreasing in the other.
 
When the scratch is biased you get a benefit in both directions - on a pull the edge is more aggressive, but on a push it has more finesse at a given grit level. Most factory edges are neutral. Its all good, the difference is not great but is certainly notable if you're looking for it.
 
maximus83 said:
Ok good to know.

Related Q: Do you ever alter--not sure how to phrase this--the LENGTH of your stroke on the stone? I've started to play with not only using lighter strokes toward the end of sharpening on a coarse stone (regardless whether Crystolon, AF, or DMT), but also not sweeping my stroke so far down the stone in such a large arc. Basically, the total length of my stroke from the point where I begin at the heel, to the point where I end at the tip, is a shorter distance on the stone.
Click to expand...

I do that all the time. Sometimes I find it more worthwhile to keep the working area on the stone smaller. Either with shorter linear passes, maybe to work a portion of the burr away, or working in a circular/oval scrubbing pattern (maybe ~ 2" across or smaller) to accomplish something more specific, like working out uneven, flat or hollow spots on the bevels. Blades with uneven, wavy primary grinds often need work like that, to try to even things out.

At the finish, I take longer, heel-to-tip passes at the lightest pressure when I'm applying the final touches to the edge, to get the scratch pattern on the bevels uniformly aligned.


David
 
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Hi,
maximus83 said:
What tips could Crystolon users suggest for getting an edge as sharp as possible using just the Crystolon fine stone (or the fine side of the Crystolon combination stone)?
...
Click to expand...
Well,
How about use only the Crystolon and nothing but the Crystolon (esp no stropping )?
Deburr with a microbevel after wiping /washing the swarf off the stone.

...

Demo of sharpness,
push cut newspaper at 90 degree, 45 tip left , 45 tip up Normark EKA 12C27 : optimal edge geometry for slicing hardwoods (norton economy fine edge) - CliffStamp

Part of the "Sharpening" playlist, explains the "advanced" tips
Norton Economy vs 420J2 : a little sharpening and stone maintenance - CliffStamp
 
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