Getting Tired of This

B

Bill Marsh

Joined
Mar 26, 2002
Messages
1,861
I hope thai this is not too political and if the Mods feel it is, or gets that way, PLEASE PULL OR MOVE IT! If you feel this is necessary, not only will I understand, but will not post more threads like this. I am a guest in your home.

I keep asking myself if this snake has a head and can we find it? Terrorists are losing conventional battles, so they are stepping up bombers?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/02/20/afghanistan.reut/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
 
The bombers are all that they can do. They cannot match out conventional forces, so they adapt.

As for the snake having a head, think of the Taliban as a gang, when one leader it disposed of there are more thugs ready to take his place.


The hard part is that we are fighting an idea, and for us to succeed we must continue what we are doing, as well as educating the general populace. After a generation or so, we should be able to declare "victory'! As long as there are warlords opressing their people, there are people in poverty or any other condition that makes them desperate and open to earning money in the wrong way, we will be fighting these wars.

Personally, I am glad that the wars are overseas, and not in our backyards.

I really believe that if we pull out now, within the year we will have more attacks on American soil. It is a question of where we want to fight.

As for the arguments about how this is taking too long, we are still in Japan, Germany, Turky, Italy, and all over South America. Just something to think about


Just my two cents, for all it is worth! :D

Grimalkin
Camp Habbaniyah, Iraq
 
We dropped 2 nuclear bombs on japan to end WWII because we feared this same situation if we had invaded the island.

We pulled out of Viet Nam because we did not know how to win this fight.

Gorge senior stopped at the border because he saw this coming.

Seems the Russians tried this once before and failed.

The Israelis have been fighting this same fight for 50 years.

I hate to say it but we're in a big mess and don't have the leadership to get us out. Looking at the line up for '08 it won't get better any time soon.
 
Well, the sworn mission is to destroy the West. What exactly should we stop doing and do different?


munk
 
Barrett has introduced a .416 caliber based on a shortened 50BMG, with a 400 grain lathe turned, solid brass boat tail spitzer at 3,250 fps. This is allegedly a shoulder held bolt action weighing 23 lbs. The projectile is supposed to remain supersonic past 2,500 yards, and is guaranteed minute of Taliwhacker at one and a half miles!!!!!!!! One shot, one less mad bomber.....a $5 a shot.
 
jurassicnarc44 said:
Barrett has introduced a .416 caliber based on a shortened 50BMG, with a 400 grain lathe turned, solid brass boat tail spitzer at 3,250 fps. This is allegedly a shoulder held bolt action weighing 23 lbs. The projectile is supposed to remain supersonic past 2,500 yards, and is guaranteed minute of Taliwhacker at one and a half miles!!!!!!!! One shot, one less mad bomber.....a $5 a shot.
Click to expand...

I believe this is the same round featured on a recent episode of Futureweapons (Discovery Channel). (Someone mentioned it in one of the firearms threads.) Pretty amazing.

Eric
 
creightonfcb said:
The bombers are all that they can do. They cannot match out conventional forces, so they adapt.

As for the snake having a head, think of the Taliban as a gang, when one leader it disposed of there are more thugs ready to take his place.


The hard part is that we are fighting an idea, and for us to succeed we must continue what we are doing, as well as educating the general populace. After a generation or so, we should be able to declare "victory'! As long as there are warlords opressing their people, there are people in poverty or any other condition that makes them desperate and open to earning money in the wrong way, we will be fighting these wars.

Personally, I am glad that the wars are overseas, and not in our backyards.

I really believe that if we pull out now, within the year we will have more attacks on American soil. It is a question of where we want to fight.

As for the arguments about how this is taking too long, we are still in Japan, Germany, Turky, Italy, and all over South America. Just something to think about


Just my two cents, for all it is worth! :D

Grimalkin
Camp Habbaniyah, Iraq
Click to expand...

All true. All too true!! There will be no end to terrorism, it will change into the same thing but by people pissed off about something else.

Getting rid of poverty and oppressive governments is no guarantee that terrorism will go away, though. Do you all remember the RAF, aka Baader-Meinhoff Gang? Bunch of rich western kids who evidently had too little time on their hands and decided to become terrorists instead of capitalists.

It doesn't take many bad apples to muck up the barrel.

Andy
 
With the greatest of respect ...

We in the West must have historically done an entirely awful marketing job. I personally do believe that constitutional democracies, the rule of law, tolerance, religious freedom, the encouragement of entrepreneurial economics (with some compassionate limits) are way better than the alternative that's become so wildly popular.

Why is it that repressive, violent, authoritarian, largely scientifically and culturally uneducated and unsophisticated, religiously repressive extremist ideologies have gained the upper hand?

I hate to say it, but I wonder about whether our "product" has had much "truth in advertising." If our values are so great, why've we supported a series of thugs like the Shah of Iran, or (initially) Saddam, or any number of others we could name? Our national and economic interests trumped a real expression of our values ... or perhaps the real expression of our values trumped the marketing hype about them that we've told ourselves.

Islamist extremism has taken hold partly because it's a rebellion, a resistance to the West. Because the West's hand on these places has never been light, going back to the days of Colonialism right on through. And at least the Islamism is theirs. It's counter to us, and yeah, focused on knocking the hell out of us.

If we'd truly acted in the international realm over the decades according to our decent, freedom-espousing, life-affirming values ... like we like to tell ourselves that we did ... then the current story would be different.

As it is, we've sown the wind, and are reaping the whirlwind. I don't know the way out now, and I in no way want to excuse the actions of the terrorists. Their tactics are horrible, offensive to everything I believe. The hatred for the West is palpable, obvious, and will be long lived.

But it's a bit like people say about Rottweillers and Pit Bulls. Nice, lovely and friendly dogs when they're raised well. But raise them badly, and they're dangerous as anything else on four feet. That's what we're facing. And we simply can't fire off nukes and turn the place to glass ... so we'll have to keep dying, partly because of our own history coming back to bite us.
 
The world does not advance at the same rate, Tom. When NY got electric lighting, should we have lighted the rest of the world before moving to the telephone?


>>>>>>>>


You know, the number 416 has always had a little magic. They necked down the 50, yes, and you even buy it in California, so says the add. The 416 Rigby was THE classic as I was learning about guns....

and I hate to say this, but on the episode of Future Guns I saw, HK had a "416" carbine, that was a prototype of an all purpose weapon. (I am sick of hearing about HK and wish our government had gone to Ruger and asked for developement) But anyway, no more gas near the bolt; it remains dirt free. And you can sink this carbine in water or sand and it will stiff fire. (though maybe not both, I dunno) It looked like a slightly shortened M4, if I said that right.


munk
 
TomFetter said:
Why is it that repressive, violent, authoritarian, largely scientifically and culturally uneducated and unsophisticated, religiously repressive extremist ideologies have gained the upper hand?
Click to expand...

Then again we had the Cold War for 50 odd years. Hardly uneducated or unsophisticated or religious.
 
Quote-"If our values are so great, why've we supported a series of thugs like the Shah of Iran, or (initially) Saddam, or any number of others we could name? Our national and economic interests trumped a real expression of our values ... or perhaps the real expression of our values trumped the marketing hype about them that we've told ourselves".

I wont say it's the morral thing to do, but the saying that goes "The devil that you know is better than the one you don't" comes to mind.

I also have no problem with the concept that, yes "America" has taken advantage of others, as is the brutal reality of human nature to dominate.

No different than any other world power.

And that ugly aspect of it all, just may have a bit of bearing on why "Americans" in the U.S. enjoy the highest quality of living on the planet. Ask your self, How far are AMERICANS, REALY willing to go to keep it that way? It is what it is.
 
.
Well, the sworn mission is to destroy the West. What exactly should we stop doing and do different?
Click to expand...


With out taking away form the efforts of military we need to get serious about being at war.

300,000,000 Americans and our military is under strength as is the border patrol and the coast guard. Were was the call to arms? Were is the recruiting drive? Why was the momentum of 911 allowed to fizzle and die.

We are not a nation at war we are a nation with troupes deployed in harms way in a foreign land.

I think that the mess in the middle east is bigger now than before we invaded Iraq.

I am all for hunting down all terrorist stopping and/or killing them as need be. I think if we had not got side tracked in Iraq we would be much further along in this task, and have more of the support of the people. I think we need to return to the original mission, stay aggressive and stay focused.

Bombs and bayonets won't stop terrorism. There has to be other solutions as well.

I have not herd any thing from the 'Hope fulls' about terror. They talk a lot about Iraq, thats a horse of a different color. IMHO
 
Thanks, Nasty. Looks like a fair and just set to me.

As for the topic at hand, I think the problem is in the human condition. I readily agree with what Tom said. Is it "fair" that that part of the world was left behind? No, but life is not fair. However, people being people, we always find a way and reason to kill each other.
One marches to his political drum nodding his head, one must bow to the East and spew the hate of nations, one feels that homosexuals have caused the wrath of the Christian God, one feels that sticking his head in the sand and complaining about "the man's policies" will get him through this rough patch in history. The fact of the matter is, no one wins. I wish we could change these people's minds. I also wish that we could find some way to dipolmatically respect others.
Rouge nations like Iran and NK are different. They have a political gain to be had in real dollars. What benefit does the average religious extremist out in the middle of the desert have from the destruction of the west? Well, they get to keep all of their oil. However, I hope they have a tasty opium/crude stew recipe since food/aid/trade will be nonexistant. Furthermore, the west could crawl back into its shell (America especially) and "wait it out". However, such actions proved foolhardy during the world wars. I find that this seems to be more of the adopted plan by many of our friends in Europe. I'm not saying it's wrong, but they have harms way in their backyard.
I hope that there is an end in site, and let me be up front in stating that I want us to put up the good fight for the next 500 years if it takes that long. However, I see this thing as one long drawn out bickering match that will continue for generations to come. They will blow a few of us up, we will blow more of them up. They will cheer as their bombers are welcomed into heaven. We will cry ourselves sick at the minimum bloodshed we have committed to. They won't be able to topple us, and we won't be able to kill them all.

...maybe if there is a zombie outbread or an alien invation or gigantic atomic oopsie we'll be able to work together. I doubt it, but at the very least, after one of those we'll probably all be back to throwing sticks and stones.

Jake
 
Bill Marsh said:
I keep asking myself if this snake has a head and can we find it? Terrorists are losing conventional battles, so they are stepping up bombers?
Click to expand...

That's asymmetrical warfare for ya. If I was losing at conventional tactics, you can bet I'd start getting unorthodox too.

TomFetter said:
If we'd truly acted in the international realm over the decades according to our decent, freedom-espousing, life-affirming values ... like we like to tell ourselves that we did ... then the current story would be different.
Click to expand...

Well put. Sometimes our own history is forgotten in our outrage.
 
You know, Christianity had its own major blood-lettings for a few hundred years, 'till the West sorted out how to have religion and tolerance in the same breath. There are elements of Islam that are going to try to do the same thing ... we've simply had a head start on them.

The huge difference, of course, is the technological advance that allows so many more to be killed, and their extremists' demonization of us.
 
The Afghans were doing guerila warfare on the Brits Gurkhas over 170 years ago, when we first went in to quell the unruly.

After about 90 years we left them to get on with it.

Youd have thought the English would have learnt, by now.

The Russians learnt much faster.

Armed Foriegn troops are never welcome in Afghanistan. {or anywhere people have pride & identity.}

Spiral
 
TomFetter said:
You know, Christianity had its own major blood-lettings for a few hundred years, 'till the West sorted out how to have religion and tolerance in the same breath. There are elements of Islam that are going to try to do the same thing ... we've simply had a head start on them. . . .
Click to expand...
Islam was far more tolerant of religious differences than the West for most of the history of Islam. Jews held high positions in government in Islamic realms when they were being burned in Christian kingdoms. Coptic Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, and others had centuries of freedom to practice their religion under Islamic rulers. I have always wondered why the changes took place and when.

As for technology and killing, I (sadly) give you Rwanda and pangas.
 
Thomas Linton said:
Islam was far more tolerant of religious differences than the West for most of the history of Islam. Jews held high positions in government in Islamic realms when they were being burned in Christian kingdoms. Coptic Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, and others had centuries of freedom to practice their religion under Islamic rulers. I have always wondered why the changes took place and when.

As for technology and killing, I (sadly) give you Rwanda and pangas.
Click to expand...
all very true - thanks for the reminder.

I've heard some date the Islamist extremist movements to the middle of the 20th century, though I've not got good backup on this.
 
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