Getting Tired of This

richardallen said:
. . .
No army has ever won a guerilla war, and no war "against terrorists" will ever be won. Ain't possible. Because they never agreed to fight 'conventional battles' with conventional rules (if there even are rules in war).

Therein lies the dilema (I think).
Keno
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History has many examples of "guerilla's" being defeated. Just to mention a few more recent examples: U.S. Indian wars; Greece post WWII; Malaya post WWII; Philippines post Spanish-American War; South Africa (Second Boer War). But such struggles seldom fit the requirement of the U.S. voter for a "short victorious war."

When the enemy uses tactics of blowing up their own civilians to get at us, I think we can fairly call them "terrorists."
 
Andrew Colglazier said:
I don't understand why we, the "West" should feel obligated to resolve the mess.

It irritates me to no end to hear the complainers on the one hand when we (the US) do something they don't like, but if we don't do anything, they complain because we didn't do anything.

They will complain no matter what, so I say they should take a flying leap.

Our own national interest should trump every time, otherwise, what is citizenship worth anyway?

Machiovelli was right; you can't be a nice guy or a nice country every time and survive. You will get "took" 'cause everybody likes a sucker.

Andy
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Want gasoline?
 
creightonfcb said:
Not to be argumentative :) but...

If Islam was so tolerant of other religions, why did they force all other religions to leave the area of what is now Iraq....
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It didn't. While there are many examples of intolerance, even violence against Christains and Jews, there are Christians, and their churches, in Iraq. Although Iraq, like Syria, are poor examples since they were run on a single-party system by an expressly secular political party (or gang). Turkey would also be a poor example since they are a secular state that tolerates Christians. Saddam "found" religion just like Joe Stalin - when it was useful in his struggle to retain power. So Saddam paid bounties to terrorist bombers and called himself a Defender of the Faith.

Why is the goal of the modern extremists to form a new Caliph and force all to adopt Islam or die.......(this coming from interviews of captured insurgents...)
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Because this is what this particular group thinks is true and valid - the message of The Supreme Being.

Several other religions hold the view that they will inherit the earth and all non-members will die horribly and suffer without limit for all eternity. Most have a goal of converting others to their particular faith/creed/belief system. Some persons, in the name of those belief systems, have historically used extreme violence to advance that goal, but it's more unusual lately. However, in the "former Yugoslavia" we did have efforts in the 1990's to remove all folks who were Muslims, by any means necessary, inclusing mass rape, mass forced deportation, and mass murder.

Also concerning how far back the radical muslim tradition goes, do a search for whahabi or hashshaseen on google and read what comes up. It goes back quite a bit further than most people know.
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There are examples of violence and intolerance that go way back. There are even more examples of contempt for non-Muslims. The Old Man of the Mountain" was a political figure or criminal gang chieftan, not an example of such Muslim extremism. He was against anyone who threatened "his" power, overwelmingly most of whom were Muslim. He used religion as a tool, with utter (if private) contempt for believers.
 
Thomas Linton said:
Want gasoline?
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Speaking for myself, NOPE!

But, since we are the most powerful nation on earth, with the ability to nuke any other nation on earth multiple times and reduce them to a pre-stoneage condition, I'd say it's a damned good thing we are the thoughtful, restrained, civilized nation we are.

Otherwise.... how does 5 cent a gallon gas sound to you all?

Andy
 
IT is forgotten by this discussion that another incident, like a biological or nuclear event, in a major Western city, like London or NY, will result in a huge financial loss for the West, followed by enormous shortages - IN POOR OR PARTIALY DEVELOPED NATIONS, SEVERAL OF WHICH SUPPORT ISLAMIC TERRORISM.

You cannot hurt the 'West" without hurting the entire world.


munk
 
Folks...I have to ask. Is "hell" or "damned" language you use with children?

I realize that I live in a cave and haven't grown much since the 60's...but with all of the wonderful and bright brains in here, I really do hope that you will try to scale it back a bit and try heck or darned, or perhaps just stop using such language.

Leave that to the other forums, eh?

Public Service Announcement 187b
 
Nasty said:
Folks...I have to ask. Is "hell" or "damned" language you use with children?

I realize that I live in a cave and haven't grown much since the 60's...but with all of the wonderful and bright brains in here, I really do hope that you will try to scale it back a bit and try heck or darned, or perhaps just stop using such language.

Leave that to the other forums, eh?

Public Service Announcement 187b
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:thumbup:

Andy
 
Thomas Linton said:
While there are many examples of intolerance, even violence against Christains and Jews, there are Christians, and their churches, in Iraq. So Saddam paid bounties to terrorist bombers and called himself a Defender of the Faith.
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But Saddam paid bounties to the bombers not because of religion but because he hated the Jews and wanted the Palestinains on his side.

If you look at Saddam's record in his own country you see a LOT of his most horrendous things were done to keep religious extremists under control and maintain a secular state. In fact Saddam's principal spokesperson Tarik Aziz was a Christian. Now most Christians have left Iraq since there is nobody there to protect them.

Read this article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1863231,00.html
 
hollowdweller said:
But Saddam paid bounties to the bombers not because of religion but because he hated the Jews and wanted the Palestinains on his side.

If you look at Saddam's record in his own country you see a LOT of his most horrendous things were done to keep religious extremists under control and maintain a secular state. In fact Saddam's principal spokesperson Tarik Aziz was a Christian. Now most Christians have left Iraq since there is nobody there to protect them.

Read this article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1863231,00.html
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Thomas, I agree with everything you are saying, I think though it should be clarified that Saddam had no interest in a secular state, per se, but rather a state which he could control.

Andy
 
munk said:
No, it wont go away Munk, the past is past Munk, you cant re write history. There is an israel, etc. & it has had a major inflounce in middle easter politics. So does USA current forirgn polocy.

Whats happenednd in the past has exsapareted some muslims & encouraged thier extremism. Its like flicking a rattlesnack.

Just think what the currant 5 year olds of Iraq & Afghanistan will be like when they take charge over the "old softy"" has been" Bin laden etc. in 20 years time.

Occuping other people countrys doesnt work. Thats why you used to fight the Brits. when we occupied your country.

Same is true for every country. past or present. The truth hasnt changed.

Spiral
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hollowdweller said:
But Saddam paid bounties to the bombers not because of religion but because he hated the Jews and wanted the Palestinains on his side.
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Originally posted by Thomas Linton
Saddam "found" religion just like Joe Stalin.
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I guess no one recalls that Joe hated religion and Russians (being Georgian himself) but "became" very religious and pan-Russian when Adolf came a' callin'. Of course it was all a pose. Just like his constant "leak" of information about Irag's alleged store of WMD's, his late conversion to radical Islam was a tactic he supposed would keep him in power.

If you look at Saddam's record in his own country you see a LOT of his most horrendous things were done to keep religious extremists under control and maintain a secular state. In fact Saddam's principal spokesperson Tarik Aziz was a Christian. Now most Christians have left Iraq since there is nobody there to protect them.
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Absatootly you betcha.
 
If history teaches anthing, it is that a conqueror need neither be loved nor apprciated to conquer. Conquests have occurred -- many times.

But what are we doing in Iraq? Not conquest. Apparently "nation-building," so denounced by our government pre 9/11. And that worked so well in Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq post WWI.

How are we going to get out with honor?
 
How are we going to get out with honor?......................................

We're not.

There will just be spin on the news.

Unless we unite as a nation and quit the bickering, we are done for.
 
spiraltwista said:
Occuping other people countrys doesnt work. Thats why you used to fight the Brits. when we occupied your country.

Same is true for every country. past or present. The truth hasnt changed.

Spiral
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No, not quite true.... the occupations of Germany and Japan being glaring examples in our history of warfare of when occupations and nation building went right.

Those two countries have reaped the benefits of our benign post war occupation, and those models should be studied and followed if such things are to be done in the future.

Andy
 
leon.pugh said:
Special Ops and Surgical air strikes only. Quit fretting over some civillian loss eventually we will prevail. Butt the people in power know this. I agree with Ken Cox on this one, It is for politacal occupation reasons. I think we will be there for a very long time even after the next democratic president.

Leon Pugh
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I can not believe you typed this unless you are Drunk.
So when we have 9/11 the muslims say "quit fretting over the civilians"
As for the special ops........
I know a lot of their work is secret, its a shame we do not hear about it later.
The track record of USA special ops in recent times, that the world know about is not fantastic really.
Maybe I should say intelligence/special ops
I can think of more disasters than success.
I won't mention Iran or Somalia.
 
When the enemy uses tactics of blowing up their own civilians to get at us, I think we can fairly call them "terrorists."
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I think you will find if you read my post again that we can agree on that. :)

As for your examples, I guess I'll have to read into that. Although I dont get how one could really win such a 'war'.

As for the war on terror(ists), when pipe bombs are now labeled as WMD, one will have to arrest/kill many terrorists 'til that war is over.

In my youth we used to built pipe bombs too, and blow up old rotten trees. Today, I'd likely be arrested for being a 'terrorist' with 'weapons of mass destruction'. *sigh*

Keno
 
Danno4017 said:
I can not believe you typed this unless you are Drunk.
So when we have 9/11 the muslims say "quit fretting over the civilians"
As for the special ops........
I know a lot of their work is secret, its a shame we do not hear about it later.
The track record of USA special ops in recent times, that the world know about is not fantastic really.
Maybe I should say intelligence/special ops
I can think of more disasters than success.
I won't mention Iran or Somalia.
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There will be failures and mistakes made in any method we take, they will not abide to the geneva convention or play by our rules so we must play by theirs in order to reduce harm to our boys. We really do not need all that many people on the ground being Police. That the world knows About
 very true.

Leon
 
Nasty said:
try heck or darned
Public Service Announcement 187b
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Heck is where people go whose sins are less serious. Unlike Hell, Heck isn't really agonizing... just very annoying and/or humiliating.

One pictures the trolls in heck continually bouncing a beach ball off their victims' heads and asking if they're gonna cry. Eventually, everyone does.

How about it, gang? What else might our not-too-bad sinners experience in Heck?
 
I think we should change tactics and do unto Osama what he is trying to do to us. He wants to wreck the U.S. economy with another incident(s) and judging from what happened to the stock market after 9/11 this is not a fantasy goal.

So, how about if we put some John F. Kennedy "Man on the Moon" emphasis on making engines etc. that burn something other than gas and put "petroleum" into the same nostalgia category as black powder? All of Osama's money came from oil, and about 70% of Iran's GNP is from crude oil (they don't even refine gas there).

That would be honorably pulling out the financial rug from under those folks and it seems to me it is pretty hard to conduct international terrorism when you are broke.
 
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