Give a break for a DUI? What do you think?

[WA Martin]

I think you made the right decision. But now you need to make some other decisions.

You have to decide what price your integrity commands. Remember the story about the man who asked the lady if he could have her favors, just once, for $1,000,000? She agreed with little thought. He then asked if she would accept $100. She became livid and asked what kind of a woman did he think she was? His answer: I already know what kind of woman you are, now we're just negotiating the price. Your integrity isn't worth a half-price meal. Also, not arresting the cook when you would have arrested him if he were a total stranger is called unequal enforcement of the law. You have to do your job because it is the right thing to do. Not because of how it makes you look in your co-workers eyes or how much court-time it gets you.

As time goes on, you will learn how discretion works and when it is appropriate to use it. I remember back to college when we asked the prof's about how to deal with situations like the commander's wife, etc. Speeding ticket advice was usually that we should have already made up our minds before we even radio'd in what we were going to do and follow through. Meaning we should have already decided if the circumstances of that situation warranted a ticket or a warning, before we even knew who was driving. More serious stuff was you'll learn as you go but choose your battles wisely and make sure you're within department policy and/or accepted procedure.

As you continue with your career, as long as it may or may not last, look for quality and not quantity. Make good arrests and good cases. Don't look to arrest just because something crosses a magic threshold, make it count for something.

I make no judgements as to whether you are hard nosed or what your work ethic is like. But do remember also: you will be judged by others with the same measuring stick that you use. If you are seen to be a nit-picker, people are going to nit-pick you, rightly or wrongly. If you are more of a big picture person, they will be more likely to look at you in the overall also.

And a thought on the tip thing: when you pay your bill - hand the cashier enough to cover the whole check and a tip requisite of the entire bill and walk away.

 

[ricklee4570]

I think you made the right decision. But now you need to make some other decisions.

You have to decide what price your integrity commands. Remember the story about the man who asked the lady if he could have her favors, just once, for $1,000,000? She agreed with little thought. He then asked if she would accept $100. She became livid and asked what kind of a woman did he think she was? His answer: I already know what kind of woman you are, now we're just negotiating the price. Your integrity isn't worth a half-price meal. Also, not arresting the cook when you would have arrested him if he were a total stranger is called unequal enforcement of the law. You have to do your job because it is the right thing to do. Not because of how it makes you look in your co-workers eyes or how much court-time it gets you.

As time goes on, you will learn how discretion works and when it is appropriate to use it. I remember back to college when we asked the prof's about how to deal with situations like the commander's wife, etc. Speeding ticket advice was usually that we should have already made up our minds before we even radio'd in what we were going to do and follow through. Meaning we should have already decided if the circumstances of that situation warranted a ticket or a warning, before we even knew who was driving. More serious stuff was you'll learn as you go but choose your battles wisely and make sure you're within department policy and/or accepted procedure.

As you continue with your career, as long as it may or may not last, look for quality and not quantity. Make good arrests and good cases. Don't look to arrest just because something crosses a magic threshold, make it count for something.

I make no judgements as to whether you are hard nosed or what your work ethic is like. But do remember also: you will be judged by others with the same measuring stick that you use. If you are seen to be a nit-picker, people are going to nit-pick you, rightly or wrongly. If you are more of a big picture person, they will be more likely to look at you in the overall also.

And a thought on the tip thing: when you pay your bill - hand the cashier enough to cover the whole check and a tip requisite of the entire bill and walk away.

Wow, best post on this subject.

Well said!

 

[Kohai999]

So you would get revenge on someone who was only doing their job when you were doing something wrong?

That is like me walking into your restaurant and asking for free food and when you tell me that you cannot do that I pee on your floor.

I also take umbrage with "just doing my job".....sure it was wrong....LET THERE BE NO DOUBT....but we are not talking kiddy porn or gang activity here....you intercepted the law breaker, and had the option of sending him home(no life changing penalty, perhaps some fear) or doing a number on him(which you did).

The analogy is not apt.

I have a neighbor who got stopped for a DUI, we have a close friend who is in LE.....she has no record, has not DUI'd since the incident, and purchased a very expensive breathalizer to check herself.....I think the "right" thing happened...you may disagree.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[ricklee4570]

I also take umbrage with "just doing my job".....sure it was wrong....LET THERE BE NO DOUBT....but we are not talking kiddy porn or gang activity here....you intercepted the law breaker, and had the option of sending him home(no life changing penalty, perhaps some fear) or doing a number on him(which you did).

The analogy is not apt.

I have a neighbor who got stopped for a DUI, we have a close friend who is in LE.....she has no record, has not DUI'd since the incident, and purchased a very expensive breathalizer to check herself.....I think the "right" thing happened...you may disagree.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

If I were a law enforcement officer, and I let someone go with a warning, and then later on down the road they did it again and killed someone, that would be hard to live with.

Why give someone a warning when they are obviously endangering others who are innocent? Its not like in this day and age someone doesnt know that it is wrong and that law enforcement is heavy handed on this subject.

A warning is a slap in the face to those that lost a loved one to a drunk driver.

You wont find too many Game Wardens who give a warning to someone shooting a deer out of season. Why give a warning to someone too irresponsible to stay off the road when they are intoxicated?

 

[ricklee4570]

Too follow that up, how fair is that to those in jail who dont happen to have a "LE" friend?

Arent the people upholding the law supposed to do so equally and fairly?

 

[Bufford]

It would depend alot on the driver in question. If they are polite, and not plastered, I'd let them go with a warning. If they are rude, or plastered, then they would be arrested. DUI comes with a heavy penalty given the offence, so I would be careful before laying a charge as screwing up a persons life for a few drinks is not exactly fair. Angry drivers, and those who are tired or late for their appointment are often far more dangerous than a driver who has been drinking.

 

[Kohai999]

Too follow that up, how fair is that to those in jail who dont happen to have a "LE" friend?

Arent the people upholding the law supposed to do so equally and fairly?

Fair? You want fair?

Fair is a myth, a construct and more of a "fairy tale" than real life.

Here is fair:

http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/

I come from a background of friends and family in law enforcement....I know that police officers do the best that they can....sometimes it is fair, sometimes not....often when it is not, it is extreme....like the losing party winds up dead, or in a coma.

In both cases, my friend and the op's tale....continuing driving was not an option offerred....the driver was taken off the road....a sober person was required to pick my friend up, and the OP floated this as an option for his case at his discretion....he did not exercise that option.

I don't play that "card"....but that is my choice.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[tyr_shadowblade]

I still feel like a piece of sh*t when I mention it to girls I am starting to date or for jobs.

I'm assuming your debt to society has been paid in full and you now have an unrestricted driver license? You have also sworn never to drive after drinking again?

Junior, what you done is no-one's damn business. You keep that to yourself. You do not even need to write that DUI on job applications as it is considered a traffic misdemeanor rather than a criminal offense. The only exception to this would be if you are applying for a driving job, such as deliveryman or chauffeur. I, personally, know a couple guys employed in law enforcement with DUI on their record, and one of them even got dinged for a felony 2nd offense.

Stop living in shame. You need to get past this.

 

[tyr_shadowblade]

In both cases, my friend and the op's tale....continuing driving was not an option offerred....the driver was taken off the road....a sober person was required to pick my friend up, and the OP floated this as an option for his case at his discretion....he did not exercise that option.

In the OP's defense, by his own admission he is an inexperienced rookie who is just learning the "rules", unwritten and not. He cannot at this point be expected to have the judgment of an officer with 10 years of experience.

I could agree with letting a driver with a high BAC off with a warning in some cases, such as an equipment violation or a minor infraction, but when he is driving over double the posted limit in a residential area that is serious.

When I used to drink I never drove . . . except on a few rare occasions where I had no other option. On those cases I was extremely careful and cautious. If that guy was just trying to get home, that is one thing -- but he was hotrodding and endangering others. He is gonna be a fry cook for a long time.

 

[Kohai999]

In the OP's defense, by his own admission he is an inexperienced rookie who is just learning the "rules", unwritten and not. He cannot at this point be expected to have the judgment of an officer with 10 years of experience.

I could agree with letting a driver with a high BAC off with a warning in some cases, such as an equipment violation or a minor infraction, but when he is driving over double the posted limit in a residential area that is serious.

When I used to drink I never drove . . . except on a few rare occasions where I had no other option. On those cases I was extremely careful and cautious. If that guy was just trying to get home, that is one thing -- but he was hotrodding and endangering others. He is gonna be a fry cook for a long time.

I have been offering my opinion, mostly in counterpoint to the "angry" mob calling for a lynching of DUI drivers.

When I was a kid, I remember 17 year-old drivers drinking beer while they were driving......somehow during our lifetimes, on our watch....we turned DUI's into the number one bogeyman.....maybe rightly, maybe wrongly....just this year, Montana which was the last state where open container was permitted while driving, has reversed course on this, and aggressive DA's are shipping 'em away....I know that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.....it is a loss of liberty, no matter how you slice it, and many of you will say that is ok. I'm not sure of that myself. People die(I have lost a bunch, so don't present any of that "what if it was your sister" crap).....many times that death is preventable. You cannot cure stupid.

If we were talking a big city, and the OP didn't know Mr Drinky....I would completely understand locking 'em away. That is not the case here, as best I can figure. What could have been between two adults, and a great moment to personally try to HELP someone, has now turned into (most likely) a case involving lawyers, the court, insurance company, state DMV.....it will cost Mr. Drinky thousands of dollars, and countless hours....and if he really has a problem, will most likely not help him one bit.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[UffDa]

I lived in the Santa Barbara area for 28 years and keep up with the news in the area. (My son still lives there)

A woman was just arrested for manslaughter. On Sept 15, while DUI, she caused a 5 vehicle collision that killed one person and seriously injured three more including herself. She was arrested yesterday when she was released from the hospital. She will probably be sent to prison for several years and when she is released, she will probably celebrate by getting drunk and doing it again.

The big question is....What do you do with these people? Give them a break?

I also saw a notice that law enforcement will be out looking for DUIs on Halloween. I should start a pool to see how many drunks are arrested on Sunday.

 

[338375]

I have been offering my opinion, mostly in counterpoint to the "angry" mob calling for a lynching of DUI drivers.

When I was a kid, I remember 17 year-old drivers drinking beer while they were driving......somehow during our lifetimes, on our watch....we turned DUI's into the number one bogeyman.....maybe rightly, maybe wrongly....just this year, Montana which was the last state where open container was permitted while driving, has reversed course on this, and aggressive DA's are shipping 'em away....I know that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.....it is a loss of liberty, no matter how you slice it, and many of you will say that is ok. I'm not sure of that myself. People die(I have lost a bunch, so don't present any of that "what if it was your sister" crap).....many times that death is preventable. You cannot cure stupid.

If we were talking a big city, and the OP didn't know Mr Drinky....I would completely understand locking 'em away. That is not the case here, as best I can figure. What could have been between two adults, and a great moment to personally try to HELP someone, has now turned into (most likely) a case involving lawyers, the court, insurance company, state DMV.....it will cost Mr. Drinky thousands of dollars, and countless hours....and if he really has a problem, will most likely not help him one bit.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

As much as I hate to admit it, I remember being 16 and driving around with friends while we were drinking. Things were different back then. I grew up in a small town and there wasn't much traffic...

If we did happen to get caught doing it, they just made us pour it out, and we went on our way. Were there times we shouldn't have been driving ? Probably.

After driving truck for 31 years now, I have seen a lot of accidents. Hard to say how many were because of drugs or alcohol, but I think people that text while driving are just as bad or worse than drunk drivers.

I very rarely drink anymore, usually just when camping or if friends come over.
I can't afford to get pulled over, even after a couple drinks, because our Gov't has decided that anyone who holds a current commercial drivers license and blows a .04 while driving a personal car is guilty of DUI, even though in our state the BAL is .08.
Talk about BS....

Being and LEO, you need to get use to the fact that there are always going to be some people that don't like you, even if you have never done anything to them.

If it makes you feel any better, a few Weeks ago there was a County Sheriff that got arrested for DUI locally. The arresting officer made the judgement call even though he worked with him. I'd be curious to know how well that went over internally

 

[MORIMOTOM]

Mark,

This is how I try to judge interaction with a police officer in general.

I interact with high level law enforcement and government officials(Captains and above, City Council members and The Mayor(douchebag) on a monthly basis through a number of different conduits.

My personal feeling(reflected through my vote) is that the OP could have VERY easily arranged for option 2....send mr drunky home without his vehicle as NO ONE WAS HARMED by this incident...but no...he played hardass.

You have dined with me, Mark....I'm not a big dude....but IF I was a small town fry cook, and the OP chose to dine in my restaurant....at the very least...I'd be looking to box his ass at the soonest possible opportunity based upon this incident...for at least some degree of equalibrium.

Let's keep it in perspective people....you CAN be harmed by just about anyone's negligence at any time, sober or drunk....NO ONE WAS harmed in this case....

Dann....I take particular umbrage at your post...YOUR stupidity/lack of attention caused you to suffer a big hospital bill that you could not afford....SOCIETY(BFC members) covered your ass....Mr. "I would arrest my own mother."....everyone does stupid shit....it is just a matter of the cost...to yourself, and everyone else.

As someone who believes in Liberty...I say, if you hurt someone.....regardless, there should be a massive cost to pay.....barring that....it is and has been a slippery slope and we are giving up an awful lot due to very stupid people who do stupid things.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

hey STeven,

yes, we have dined and talked and i consider you my friend.

we have vastly different perspectives based on our individual life's experiences. because of that, i value your opinion, regardless of whether you are in agreement with mine or not.

although on the surface one would not think so, dui can be a polarizing topic. ive made dui arrests, both for alcohol and drugs. ive also arranged a disposition otherwise for the driver and/or passengers. circumstances dictate any particular disposition in many cases. lots of "what ifs" which i will not get in to.

to be clear, it is a common misconception that one must be over the legal limit for bac in order to be arrested. eg, ca has a .08 bac limit. if the driver is over the limit, probable cause is automatically exists for arrest. however, a driver can be impaired and be under the limit, and subject to arrest based on the fst's and other aggravating factors.

i choose to police in the manner i see fit. my style is borne from over a decade of experiences which cover the spectrum of police work. there are few things i have not seen, experienced, or investigated, as it pertains to law enforcement work.

like in any job, police officers are expected to be productive. statistically, this is tracked by arrests, citations, and the clearing of calls for service. but we also know many things are not quantifiable. talking to a classroom full of little kids about traffic safety doesn't show up in a recap of stats.

there is no way to know whether a dui driver would have killed someone or made it home after they are arrested. many people are killed as the result of a dui driver. in los angeles this week a driver who had been huffing collided with a school bus, which overturned, injuring 40+ students. a bicyclist was struck by the dui vehicle, propelling him in to the path of a second bus, which crushed and killed him. in some people's minds, this confirms that all dui drivers should be arrested.

the truth, i think, is that this simply confirms that dui is a dangerous act, which we all already know.

i believe it impossible to argue that one has a right to dui. no person has a right to drive a vehicle on any public road in the u.s. the fact that a person is arrested when there has been no injury is incidental to them driving under the influence. injury becomes an aggravating factor, and the lack of injury is not a mitigating factor, in a legal sense.

it is always possible that a driver whom an officer believes to be dui and releases will end up killing someone. the officer and agency become liable for any injury or damage caused. for these reasons, any arrest is justifiable.

if a driver is released, we are just hoping they don't drive until sober. its a gamble some aren't willing to take.

 

[T. Erdelyi]

DUI is DUI, if you let 'em go with a warning, (even if ya get 'em a ride home) they're still gonna drive drunk and maybe this time they hit a dog, or maybe a car full of teenagers, worst case scenario they hit someone you love, how would you live with your self, I couldn't.

Even if it was a friend, they would probably hate me but at least they were still alive.

I've lost a few friends to DUI some were drivers and the others innocent passengers or bystanders, either way it sucks and I have no compassion for someone who choses to limb behind the wheel of a 1 ton+ steerable bullet.

I've even been lucky enough in my youth usin' poor judgement to get home safely while under the influence but I swore I'd never do it again, that 30 years ago, now I am always the designated driver at the parties, everyone knows if Teds at the party it's ok to drink, 'cause Ted'll take 'em home, (and I do).

Ya did the right thing brother, don't have a second thought about it.

Now I've had several LEOs in the family which has enabled me to attend many PBA, FOB functions including many wedding and retirement parties for LEOs and Fireman, my point is that at every fuction I could see how drunk most of 'em get and with out much thought get behind the wheel of a car and drive home knowin' full well they would blow .08 or better.

My brother in law asked me if I was drivin' home, he was concerned that maybe I was a little lit, (I had been drinkin' plain Coke for the last 4 hours) and should stay with him and his wife in the hotel till mornin', (at least he was smart enough to get a room but 80% of the LEOs at the function, (all while definately .08 or over), got behind the wheel and drove home.

I'm not judgin' anyone just observin' what happened, seemed to me that they all felt that their drivin' expierence was substantial enough that they felt they were better drivers in their condition than average citizens, maybe they are or maybe they've just been lucky.

 

[Charlie Mike]

We have a spare bedroom (and a couch). I insist that people use them. So you're gonna get loaded? Cool! You're staying here.

 

[T. Erdelyi]

I used to have three day parties when I lived on the farm,I'd make people bring tents and camp out we'd have a monster bon-fire goin' for the duration of the party.

There were always people up at all hours so we made sure that no one drove off drunk, I had one friend though that I didn't trust so while he was passed out in his tent, I took the ignition wires off the distributer cap and hid them under the back seat, I figured if he could find the wires and reinstall them in the right sequence he was sober enough to drive.

Well I woke up around 6 am and I saw his car was gone, (he'd gone to work) we continued partyin' into the evening and my friend showed up about 8 pm, I congratulated him on bein' sober enough to find his wires and fix his car, he smiled and asked me if I had tries to drive my car at all that day?

I told him no I've been keepin' the food and booze flowin', he started to laugh and said he didn't even look for his wires, he told me he took mine and used them to rewire his distributer.

Now that was a sober man.

 

[Parasitic Psycho]

We have a spare bedroom (and a couch). I insist that people use them. So you're gonna get loaded? Cool! You're staying here.

That's a real friend, most people I know stick by the "you don't have to go home, but you can't stay here' methodology.

 

[eyeeatingfish]

In the OP's defense, by his own admission he is an inexperienced rookie who is just learning the "rules", unwritten and not. He cannot at this point be expected to have the judgment of an officer with 10 years of experience.

Just for reference, I have 4 years under my belt and have arrested somewhere between 75-100 drunk drivers. I have taken part in another 75 or so cases where I was not arresting but I did the transport or the breath test at the station.
I knew the ramifications and I knew what my beat partners would have told me to do if they were at the scene.




KOHAI:
Is life fair? No. Is there injustice? Yes. Does it even come from cops? Yes.
Will I change the world? Probably not. But I can either try or I can just contribute to the injustice. I want to be able to answer to anyone that regardless of what the world does, I serve right and do just.

 

[Kohai999]

KOHAI:
Is life fair? No. Is there injustice? Yes. Does it even come from cops? Yes.
Will I change the world? Probably not. But I can either try or I can just contribute to the injustice. I want to be able to answer to anyone that regardless of what the world does, I serve right and do just.

You asked for the "group" opinion, I told you where I stand.

We all have our own codes of conduct, we all deal with the ramifications. If you sleep well, you have your answer.

I know Mark a little, and like him. If he had to take me down, I would go peacefully....being in law enforcement is a hard job...it really is.....the dickheads on both sides make it harder...yunno?

If contributing to the injustice is comprised of completely giving up on the entire species because we are all foresaken, color me injust with a capital "I"

I sleep like a baby, even when I am behind bars. See you on the other side someday.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Charlie Mike]

I sleep like a baby, even when I am behind bars. See you on the other side someday.

I have a few times. There ain't no sleep better than no crank sleep.