glock 19 accolade

[MORIMOTOM]

:thumbup:its not oten i see a post i agree with 110%.........

yeah, every so often i make a little sense.

 

[zenheretic]

I was once told that in the early 1900's, John Browning search for the perfect grip rested on the handle of a hammer. He figured that the fighting men would probably be blue collar workers who would be used to the grip of a hammer.. both the size and angle of the model 1911 would follow those lines. Anyone ever hear this? I remember it was an old salt with years of gunsmithing in his corner but for the life of me cant remember who. Armand Swensen?

Unless hammers have changed shape in the last 100 years, I just don't understand how this would be a correct story. Hammers have a straight handle. The angle of the 1911 handle is certainly not straight.

Hold your dominant arm out with an open hand with the palm facing you. Ensure your wrist is not bent in any direction. Make a fist, still maintaing no wrist bending. If done correctly you have angle made by your fingers. The angle of the 1911 is very close to this angle. It is the natural angle that allows an average hand to hold (make a fist around) a handle and naturally point a pistol at a target while maintaining the full support of the hand/wrist/arm in the natural and strongest support method.

His first designs did not have this angle but came down more "straight" and lacked the natural angle.

 

[zenheretic]

PRe 1911 design: notice less angle: to the orginal 1911: can be seen on this page: http://www.m1911.org/history.htm

click the autoloader.htm for pre design and click original pistol for the first 1911 design

 

[Cougar Allen]

That story would be more believable if it were told about the Mauser broomhandle.

 

[ClintB]

Hold your dominant arm out with an open hand with the palm facing you. Ensure your wrist is not bent in any direction. Make a fist, still maintaing no wrist bending.

This works well, a slight variation is to point with your index finger, other fingers make a fist. Sight down your arm at an object. Then look at the angle of the fingers in the fist. (same principle, more accurate natural point).

 

[FireInvestigator]

It was one of those, 'I'm the dumb guy and the guy telling the story is the salty expert' situations. I wasnt there to question or debate him.... ya know? I just remember thinking , hmmm, sounds alright. In the same sit down he explained why the Military chose the .45 cal. It was tested on Moro's during thier uprising in the Philipines and dropped them fast.Other ammos at the time couldnt do that. Once again, I cannot judge the veracity or truth of all this, I just heard it and passing it on. Thought some of you might know.

All that being said, Shoot what makes you comfy. If you play with guns, remember to keep your booger hook off the bang switch until youre ready to fire.

 

[Cougar Allen]

It was one of those, 'I'm the dumb guy and the guy telling the story is the salty expert' situations. I wasnt there to question or debate him.... ya know? I just remember thinking , hmmm, sounds alright. In the same sit down he explained why the Military chose the .45 cal. It was tested on Moro's during thier uprising in the Philipines and dropped them fast.Other ammos at the time couldnt do that.

That one isn't even a half truth -- more like a quarter truth. The real story is easily available.

Once again, I cannot judge the veracity or truth of all this, I just heard it and passing it on.

That's why about 99% of the nonsense around is around -- only one dork made it up, but 99 more repeated it.

 

[FireInvestigator]

That one isn't even a half truth -- more like a quarter truth. The real story is easily available.




That's why about 99% of the nonsense around is around -- only one dork made it up, but 99 more repeated it.

Now I'm a dork. This is exactly why I threw up the caveat.

 

[David E]

Sigs and other guns that require manual decocking also require a dedication to the technique.

I've seen more than one cop during training holster a COCKED Sig, not realizing he forgot to decock it. If he keeps that up, he'll be in for a nasty surprise one day !

For Glox and others (M&P, XD) this is not an issue. (Also, the M&P and XD's do NOT copy the Glock. In essence, they are single action designs, as their strikers are FULLY cocked when the slide goes into battery, unlike Glock which is only partially cocked.)

The Chuck Taylor reference did NOT have to do with slide actuated trigger reset. Instead, he meant that the first part of the trigger pull completed cocking the striker (not a hammer) fully. The remainder of the trigger pull was "as usual" in that it then released said striker to fire the gun.

And the "hammer inspired the 1911 grip" story is BS. Since when do hammers have a "grip angle?" I've never held a hammer that felt like a 1911.........has anyone?

.

 

[ashtxsniper]

Put a Springfield XD and a Glock next to each other. The XD was partially inspired/copied from a Glock

 

[MORIMOTOM]

Sigs and other guns that require manual decocking also require a dedication to the technique.

I've seen more than one cop during training holster a COCKED Sig, not realizing he forgot to decock it. If he keeps that up, he'll be in for a nasty surprise one day !

For Glox and others (M&P, XD) this is not an issue. (Also, the M&P and XD's do NOT copy the Glock. In essence, they are single action designs, as their strikers are FULLY cocked when the slide goes into battery, unlike Glock which is only partially cocked.)

The Chuck Taylor reference did NOT have to do with slide actuated trigger reset. Instead, he meant that the first part of the trigger pull completed cocking the striker (not a hammer) fully. The remainder of the trigger pull was "as usual" in that it then released said striker to fire the gun.

And the "hammer inspired the 1911 grip" story is BS. Since when do hammers have a "grip angle?" I've never held a hammer that felt like a 1911.........has anyone?

.

perhaps "copy" was too strong a word. however following glocks success came the xd and m&p. they may not be exaclty the same, but it is hard to argue that springfield and s&w did not start with gaston's design and change it to suit their needs.

simply because the striker is uncocked or fully cocked does not mean the designs are not essentially the same, right down to the trigger "safety".

 

[David E]

I suppose one could make a case that EVERY gun in history is derived from the matchlocks of the mid 15th century.........

Are the frames plastic? yes, they are, but that doen't mean they copied nearly everything detail by detail.

The XD and the M&P are very different internally than a Glock. S&W's earlier attempt at a poly frame gun, their Sigma line, was a different matter. Glock sued S&W over that one and prevailed. (even the Glock slide would fit on a Sigma frame.......I don't recall if it worked or not.....but it was dang close if it didn't!)

Glock was NOT the first with a plastic frame. Does anyone remember that chunky POS that H&K put out in 1970 called the VP-70 ?

It predated Glock by more than a decade, but I don't recall seeing anyone saying that Glock ripped off H&K's idea.......

Hey, H&K introduced the light rail frame before Glock, too !!

Granted, Glock took the poly framed pistol idea and ran with it, leaving others to catch up, but with poly framed guns of different designs. (except for the Sigma already mentioned)

.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

I suppose one could make a case that EVERY gun in history is derived from the matchlocks of the mid 15th century.........

Are the frames plastic? yes, they are, but that doen't mean they copied nearly everything detail by detail.

The XD and the M&P are very different internally than a Glock. S&W's earlier attempt at a poly frame gun, their Sigma line, was a different matter. Glock sued S&W over that one and prevailed. (even the Glock slide would fit on a Sigma frame.......I don't recall if it worked or not.....but it was dang close if it didn't!)

Glock was NOT the first with a plastic frame. Does anyone remember that chunky POS that H&K put out in 1970 called the VP-70 ?

It predated Glock by more than a decade, but I don't recall seeing anyone saying that Glock ripped off H&K's idea.......

Hey, H&K introduced the light rail frame before Glock, too !!

Granted, Glock took the poly framed pistol idea and ran with it, leaving others to catch up, but with poly framed guns of different designs. (except for the Sigma already mentioned)

.

i never said they copied every detail, reread my post.

and not so much the polymer frame, that was likely a natural evolution given the use of polymers in other industries.

but the striker fire systems are unquestionably more than similar, as are the triggers.

im not saying they copied EVERY detail, just that the designs are similar enough. and it is important to note that glocks patent expired just prior to the release of other striker fired pistols.

being just different enough so as not to infringe on a patent or allow a gun to be called an exact copy doesnt change the fact that they are all remarkably similar in design and function.

and i remember that hk, what a peice of crap!

 

[MORIMOTOM]

I suppose one could make a case that EVERY gun in history is derived from the matchlocks of the mid 15th century.........

.

i find this statement quite interesting. it is like saying every knife is the same because it has a blade and handle.

experts in any area, such as knives and guns in this case, can look at the finer points of a product to determine its own merits.

when you want a new gun or knife, and someone, perhaps a spouse, says: "why do you need another? you have ten guns, they are all the same!"

is your response: "yeah, i suppose they are. they all shoot bullets."

the evolution of the matchlock led ultimately to the precision firearms we use today. is the springfield xd a result of similar evolution? probably not.

its a fine pistol, and different in some ways, but again, awfully like a glock.

 

[Pahtoocara]

The Chuck Taylor reference did NOT have to do with slide actuated trigger reset. Instead, he meant that the first part of the trigger pull completed cocking the striker (not a hammer) fully. The remainder of the trigger pull was "as usual" in that it then released said striker to fire the gun.

Yes, I think he is referring to the two stage trigger and what it accomplishes.

I've never held a hammer that felt like a 1911.........has anyone?

I haven't either. But, I think it would be a good marketing scheme. Think about it, a custom hammer maker advertising his 1911 grip hammers! And then the tagline:

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"

All you Colt 1911 nuts would be getting one, admit it!

 

[Mitchell Knives]

As an overall gun, I prefer Glocks. Glocks are accurate, reliable and durable. I own a G17, G21, and a G26 and have never had a single problem with any of them. I'm also fond of 1911s; and shoot them better than anything else. The main reason why I usually carry Glocks is because I don't like the weight and thumb safety found on a 1911. I have no problems switching from Glock to 1911 grip angles. I think either would be fine for carry. For long term survival, a revolver has a few things going for it. Revolvers are even more reliable than autos, and don't require magazines.

 

[James Green Dragon]

Regarding the slide release issue, someone said above: "...glock recommends not using it, its a slide stop, not slide release. but that doesnt mean it doesnt work or isnt reliable."

Point taken - on both sides of the issue. It may work fine as a slide release; but it isn't designed to be one. And it is so small & close fitting to the frame of the gun, it is not real easy to use that way. OTOH I have seen aftermarket slide locks for the Glocks that are a bit more user friendly.

I never had a complaint with the grip angle on the Glock's either. I like the feel of the XD a little better having held & shot each side by side. But that is personal preference.

As for the XD & its similarity to the Glocks, the following exerpts from Going Over To The Dark Side (The Springfield XD-9 Tactical Review by Syd) illustrate some differences:

"At first glance, one would be tempted to say that the XD is a Glock knock-off. It’s a polymer-framed high-capacity autoloader and it has the little trigger safety flange thingy made famous by the Glocken. But there the similarity ends. The forged and milled slide looks more like a SIG, as do the spare controls. The grip angle is that of a 1911 while the grip shape is reminiscent of the Browning Hi-Power. (Actually, when I squint my eyes, I see the ghost of the Hi-Power in the overall shape of the XD-9 Tactical.) The take-down lever and the slide release look SIG-ish. And, it has a grip safety, like the 1911..."

"...The XD series of pistols are classified as single action, not double action or “safe action.” When the slide cycles, the striker is fully cocked, not partially in the way the Glock is. The XD may look like a double action pistol but it isn’t, and it doesn’t shoot like one.... ...I give credit for this to the 5 lb. trigger of the XD. It doesn’t “break like a glass rod” but it’s quite clean for this kind of pistol. There is about a quarter inch of take-up, then a bit of creep, and then it breaks. During the “creeping” part, the trigger is lifting the striker block which serves to prevent the pistol from being fired in the event that it is dropped. This trigger is clean enough to make good shots without being so light as to make you nervous that it doesn’t have more external safeties."

Link to full article: http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/XD-9_Tactical.htm

IMO, every gun made since is a copy of John Browning's designs. Glock was an innovator - but he still worked off of Mr. B's base design. So is the XD a copy of the Glock? Of course. But IMO it is the next step forward. ...I mean short of caseless ammo or directed energy weapons LOL.

Additional contrast between the Glock & XD actions from an article in Shooting Times:

"...The XD mechanism completely cocks (preloads) the spring-charged firing pin so that the only function provided by the trigger pull is to release the sear and fire the gun. By contrast, the Glock "Safe Action" only partly preloads the firing mechanism, and the trigger pull physically completes the cocking action as well as releasing the firing pin. The XD is therefore a true "single-action" trigger design because its trigger only performs one function--releasing the firing mechanism. The Glock is a true "double-action" trigger design in that its trigger contributes to the actual cocking of the mechanism as well as releasing it..."

Link: http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/springfieldxd_061206/

I must add that I originally thought the XD was made in America. This is incorrect. The gun is made in Croatia. Go figure.

 

[David E]

I find the XD and M&P to be similar to a Glock in that they all have polymer frames. 1 of the 2 have a similar trigger "safety"

The internals, to me, are totally different.

As long as the goal in question is the same (make a hand held platform to launch little missiles) then some ideas will be similar and overlap.

.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

I find the XD and M&P to be similar to a Glock in that they all have polymer frames. 1 of the 2 have a similar trigger "safety"

The internals, to me, are totally different.

As long as the goal in question is the same (make a hand held platform to launch little missiles) then some ideas will be similar and overlap.

.

the xd trigger is nearly identical. the m&p trigger is very close, the difference being it is not shrouded.

 

[David E]

the xd trigger is nearly identical. the m&p trigger is very close, the difference being it is not shrouded.

I see the problem now........you're only looking at the EXPOSED part of the trigger.

Yes, the XD has a lever-tab built into the face of its metal (glock is plastic) trigger. The M&P has an articulated plastic trigger instead of a pinned-in-place lever like the Glock.

All 3 accomplish the same thing: prevent the gun from firing from inertia, should the gun fall from a high enough height and land squarely on the rear of the slide. It is NOT a manual safety as many think. It's a safety FEATURE. If you want to call this element of the three triggers "nearly identical" that's fine with me.

But, that's external. Take off the slide and work the trigger on all 3. TWO of them will return their trigger to the fully forward position. And one of those 2 ain't the Glock ! The trigger return spring on both the XD and M&P is attached to the trigger. It works with the slide off, glock will not. The totally different approaches are apparent when you take off the slides.

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