Glocks vs others

[Absintheur]

Likelihood of appearing in a movie or computer game.


Does anyone here have any experience with Steyr pistols?

Only Steyr pistol I have shot much was the old GB model. It was big, heavy, and one of the most accurate semi-autos I have ever owned. I have handled the new models but they didn't really do much for me. They are good guns but they don't bring anything new to the party. The sights are unusual but like the big V rear/big dot front on some of the newer handguns once you get use to them they work very well.

 

[David E]

Top Three---Glock, H&K and Sig. When I was researching my next pistol, I had a H&K P9s 9mm, every LEO and MP, recommended Glock pistols. Except two. They leaned towards H&K. I traded my P9s for a Glock 17.

Again, Top Three of what? Sales ? LE use ? Recommended arms?

One could argue that Glock, S&W and Ruger are the real "Top Three".......depending on what parameters you're using.

I'm not trying to beat you up on this, I'm just trying to understand your reasons.

Also, it's been my experience that most cops and MPs really don't know squat about guns or shooting, so asking their opinions about guns and shooting really won't get you much. I wish this wasn't the case.

.

 

[David E]

I would say I am about 10% faster with a 9mm than I am with a 40, probably closer to 25% faster shooting unsupported strong hand. I have talked with several trainers including Massad Ayoob, Farnham, and other lesser known civilian and LE instructors and the general consensus has always been the 9mm is faster to get back on target for follow-up shots, even more so if firing one handed.

For the "typical shooter," I would agree. Many techniques are geared towards this type of shooter. Most of them would be better served with the 9mm.

I really haven't checked split times but I can start in the surrender position with gun holstered and clear a rack of 6 8" plates at ten yards in under three seconds and can run an El Presidente drill in under 7 seconds on a good day with a revolver.

Not bad shooting! But the splits (and hits) would tell the rest of the story.

 

[Lycosa]

DavidE---That's just my order of excellent pistols. I am by no means correct. Buy and shoot what you like. There will always be bashing, be it the 9mm or Glock or the 1911. It all works!

 

[David E]

DavidE---That's just my order of excellent pistols. I am by no means correct. Buy and shoot what you like. There will always be bashing, be it the 9mm or Glock or the 1911. It all works!

Thanks for the clarification !

We should be thankful that we live in a country where so many different makes and models and calibers of gun are still available.

(with that in mind, vote carefully in November!)

 

[Lycosa]

DavidE---You betcha!! High-Sign! Thanks.

 

[allenC]

I didn't say the 40 was a bad caliber, I said it wouldn't do anything the calibers that bracket it wouldn't do. The just isn't that much difference in performance to justify a "need" for it. Notice I said need, I didn't say it didn't justify a desire for it. If you pick it as the caliber you want that is fine, it will do a great job for you but it won't do it better than a 9 or 45 will do.

Not to stir up a caliber war, but I respectfully disagree.
Will the .40 perform better than the .45?
Not really, but it doesn't perform any worse either, and it offers increased magazine capacity in similar sized handguns....and more bullets is better than less.

Will the .40 perform better than the 9mm?
In my opinion, yes.
It is a heavier slug with greater diameter....and like the saying goes "a 9mm might not expand, but a .45 (and a .40) will never shrink".
And the .40 still has very good velocity too.
Some 9mm rounds are very good, but some are not so good.
But there really isn't a bad .40 round.

The .40 essentially gives .45 performance with nearly the magazine capacity of a 9mm....and in a 9mm size handgun.

However given identical guns, one in 9 and one in 40 a shooter will be just a bit faster with the 9. You cannot change the laws of physics with training, the lower recoil impulse will mean faster time back on sights and target.

9 mm Luger - Recoil Impulse of .78 ms- Recoil Velocity of 17.55 ft/s (5.3 m/s) - Recoil Energy, 6.84 ft·lbf (9.3 J)

40 S&W - Recoil Impulse of .88 ms- Recoil Velocity of 19.73 ft/s (6.0 m/s) - Recoil Energy, 8.64 ft·lbf (11.7 J)

Not necessarily.
The guns would never be "identical" since you're not going to use the same recoil spring for a 9mm and a .40....at least not if you're smart.
And the barrels will be different as well....slides too most likely.
So now you have to factor in the effects of a stronger recoil spring, a heavier slide, and a heavier barrel.
In any event, the time difference is really not enough to be significant....we're talking about 1/3 of a second difference.

There is a solid reason competition shooters like the 9 for speed competitions, they can run the course of fire faster.

True, but in competitions the shooter is just punching paper....they're not trying to stop a human opponent.
The .40 was designed for street performance, not paper punching.

 

[timcsaw]

Not to stir up a caliber war, but I respectfully disagree.
Will the .40 perform better than the .45?
Not really, but it doesn't perform any worse either, and it offers increased magazine capacity in similar sized handguns....and more bullets is better than less.
{snip}

For those who would like to see some information about caliber comparisons, try this; http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

 

[timcsaw]

Oops.... double post.

 

[David E]

In any event, the time difference is really not enough to be significant....we're talking about 1/3 of a second difference.

I agree with most of your post, but this sentence here jumped out at me.

1/3 of a second, or 33/100ths, or .33, is extremely significant if you're talking about shot to shot time. (also known as "split times")

If your normal "splits" are .20, but with another caliber they are .33 greater, that makes your shot to shot time .53, or over a 1/2 second between shots.

What is 1/2 second? it is FOUR shots fired.....either by you or by the badguy. .33 of a second is THREE shots fired.

First shot at .00, second at .16, third at 32, fourth at .48.

With properly executed technique, you can control the 9mm/.40/.45 equally well.

 

[EdD270]

I strongly disagree with this, not every gun will fit every shooter. In many cases it is the gun design that causes problems not the shooter. I can shoot a Glock very well or I would wouldn't have won the GSSF Hoosier Regional Classic a few years back but when I do shoot a Glock it takes a conscious effort with every shot to align the sights. I do not have to do this with any other firearm I own. The Glock grip angle and hump do cause many shooters to have problems aligning the sights, this is obvious or there wouldn't be dozens of companies offering services to change or reduce the grip frames.

The Glocks are great guns, they're just not a great gun for everyone.

Thank you for providing an example of the point I was trying clumsily to make. You don't like the way the Glock feels in your hand, but you have learned to shoot it well enough to win matches. I was trying to get across that with proper coaching and practicing good technique, he can learn to shoot the Glock very well, well enough to win matches if he puts in the effort. There may be guns that he'll like better, but he already has a Glock. Most people can't afford to buy lots of guns, much as we'd like to. Why not just learn to shoot what he has? Just my thoughts.

 

[Absintheur]

True, but in competitions the shooter is just punching paper....they're not trying to stop a human opponent.
The .40 was designed for street performance, not paper punching.

The 9mm most decidedly was not designed for punching paper. It has names like 9X19, 9mm Luger,etc,,,but the most telling name for the cartridge is the 9mm Parabellum, which when translated means basically "prepare for war". If you had spent the time shooting literally tons of ballistic gel and thousands of rounds in testing and years combing police shooting reports like a friend of mine has done you would understand just how small the difference between the two are using good quality ammo. I have shot ballistics gel with Evan Marshall for testing and know what I have seen. The only place a 40S&W has an edge in is in using FMJ, and even that isn't that big an edge.

A third of a second is a huge difference in a gunfight, quite literally a lifesaving difference. All the differences you listed between guns, recoil spring and such, only serve to increase time back on target. I have tried this with several guns...a Browning HP, Glocks, and H&K P-7s and in every case the 9 was faster in drills.

Many people here have read all the reports in magazines and I can understand why people think of some guns and calibers the way they do. However every writer I know, I mean know personally, have all said the same thing...gun magazines are entertainment not education. No writer will slam a product very often because doing so is a good way to end your career...no one sends products to writers who give many bad reviews. Even the C.O.P. got good reviews...lol.

 

[SIFU1A]

evan marshall, now that a ballistics expert lol.....................

i do agree the 9MM and .40 are pretty close to the same animal with good ammo.

but honestly, i wouldnt believe evan if he told me the sun was coming up in the AM, i'd go look to see lol.

sorry but his opinions (which is all they are) dont carry a lot of weight with me, sorry if he's your bud, but thats how i feel about him.

zero credibility.

 

[timcsaw]

Cal / Load / Bullet / MV(fps) / ME(ft. lbs.) / Penet(10% gel.) / AIT(goats) / One Shot Stop % / Test Brl.

9x19 / Cor-Bon +P 115gr.JHP / 1321 / 454/ 14.2" / 8.92 sec. / 91% / 4" Glock
9x19 / Rem.Golden Saber+P 124gr.JHP / 1180 / 384 / 12" / n/a / 83% / unk.

.40S&W / Federal Hydra-Shok 180gr.JHP / 950 / 361 / 15" / 8.32 sec. / 89% / 4" S&W
.40S&W / Rem.Golden Saber 165gr.JHP / 1150 / 485 / 12" / n/a / 94% / 4" S&W

Clik the link fella's....
http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

 

[David E]

First of all, I've never been attacked by a block of ballistic gelatin. I'm more interested in how the bullets perform on badguys trying to kill people.

Second of all, the mythical "one shot stop" percentages are a bunch of tripe.

Aside from being seriously discredited many times over, the fact remains by the authors own admissions that incidents that took multiple hits were never included.

So the times where the 9mm (or any other caliber) was emptied into the badguy with little effect are specifically NOT included in their alleged "one shot stop percentage."

Ab, I'm glad you like your 9mm so much. I'm glad you think it's faster than larger calibers, which is why I was curious what your splits were.

My only point is, it's not difficult to control the 9mm/.40/.45 within the time frames I presented. Now if you can control the 9mm with .12 splits or better and can only do .18 with a .45, then that's a good reason to promote the 9mm.

.

 

[joeshredd]

A lot of good stuff in this thread...
As it is, I have a 1911, a Glock 23 and 27 and .357 revolvers... I had a Glock 19, but every now and again, I'd lose the grip just enough to get stovepipes from "limp wristing" the thing... I sold it and went with the .40 S&W version because I've heard it cycles just that much faster that one doesn't have "time" to limp wrist it. Now I know, maintaining the proper grip is essential, but at 3:00 am, in the dark, fumbling for glasses, etc, there is a very good chance of not aquiring an adequate grip 100% of the time... And I haven't had a stovepipe or other miss-feed in either of my Glocks in .40...
Given all that, while I may naturally shoot straighter with my 1911, I do find that I've grown totally comfortable with the ergos on my Glocks and I have no problem lining things up, even in the dark... And as to how "fast" I may be shot to shot, I'm simply not good enough to tell the difference between any of my semi-autos, but I am much slower with my wheelguns...
So, for fun I'll shoot my 1911 and my wheelguns, but for my carry, I'll always grab my Glock first...

 

[Lycosa]

Glock And Roll!!

 

[sodak]

Given the current state of politics, I'm just glad you all are shooting - I don't care which brand! Fire away!!!!

 

[SIFU1A]

First of all, I've never been attacked by a block of ballistic gelatin. I'm more interested in how the bullets perform on badguys trying to kill people.

Second of all, the mythical "one shot stop" percentages are a bunch of tripe.

Aside from being seriously discredited many times over, the fact remains by the authors own admissions that incidents that took multiple hits were never included.

So the times where the 9mm (or any other caliber) was emptied into the badguy with little effect are specifically NOT included in their alleged "one shot stop percentage."

Ab, I'm glad you like your 9mm so much. I'm glad you think it's faster than larger calibers, which is why I was curious what your splits were.

My only point is, it's not difficult to control the 9mm/.40/.45 within the time frames I presented. Now if you can control the 9mm with .12 splits or better and can only do .18 with a .45, then that's a good reason to promote the 9mm.

.

as far as the stopping power book there is some debate on where evan got his info as several sources quoted in the book denied ever even speaking with him, about anything, and didnt know him, , & stated they wouldnt give out info like that if they did.

so where did the info come from?? beats me, i tried asking him about it on his forum and he promptly banned me lol, didnt wanna go there, but imho its fine for bathroom reading material (some say its only good for bathroom tissue lol) but as far as influencing what loads i carry, has less than zero weight.

my favorite "evanism" is "energy dump" WTF is that? oh right i have one of those every AM lol.

and i used to think he knew WTF.

 

[Robert H]

I own most of the Glocks, a few 1911's, most of the Sig's, HK's, and all kinds of other autos for the business.

I ended up carrying the biggest bullet I could with the most capacity in the smallest package, and that's a XD .45 with 14 round mags for me. It shoots as accurate as my 1911's, holds almost twice the ammo, and functions flawlessly, with a grip just slightly bigger than a Glock 19.

I keep other guns handy, but the XD .45 is my go to gun for street carry, supplemented with my 340SC.

And this was after years of carrying both Glocks and 1911.