God Is In The Magic Mushrooms

My memories bad, but I don't recall anyone saying pot was worse than booze, only that it was not harmless, and was illegal.

This point about plants being beside the law, or less harmless, is a false premise.

If we are going to legalize chemicals, and that includes chemicals from plants, how to propose to legalize some and not others?

We haven't seen anything yet. Wait until chemistry gets even more sophisticated.

There is going to have to be some government oversight. We may have to draw lines about what we will tolerate and what we will not.

munk
 
Vivi said:
Remindsm e of Native Americans and their vision quests, in which peyota and mescaline were often used if I remember correctly. Spiritual experiences are very common with these types of things, and profound visions in general.
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You've been reading the wrong books.:rolleyes: :( Nothing at all was used or are used in American Indin vision quests. The Native American Church uses Peyote in a sacred way and are way, way, too Christian for this old traditional ndn.
 
Vivi said:
Yvsa, I distinctly remember some of the books I've read mentioning that Peyote was sometimes used in vision quests and such. I'm sorry if I was spreading false information, but due to my previous knowledge of Indians using these things in their rituals it didn't sound far off to me. Could you elaborate some on exactly how they used them, and during what special moments in their culture?
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Vivi, et al:
Peyote was and is still used by some of the southern and southwestern tribes and are used in some ceremonies but not vision quests per se. What most people forget is that there were 500 plus ndn nations here on Turtle Island at the coming of the Europeans. Out of those 500 plus ndn nations there were some that had similar traditions like the, for want of spelling them all out, Sioux, Mandan, Hidatsa(sp?), Crow and others of the northern plains and forests had the Sundance, Sweatlodge, and vision quests.
The southeastern tribes like the Cherokee, Creek, and Seminole (I think) all had the Stomp Dances.

And what might have been used in the past by some tribes is no longer used because they have been moved from the areas where their particular type of Medicine grows.
However the Native American Church has spread all across Turtle Island and is used by many different peoples that would never have used it before because it wasn't part of their culture.
It's on the same order as so many doing the vision quest that aren't part of the peoples that originated it. The vision quest has become very popular among many of the New Age folks.:( :mad:

The Carlos Castenada books are just books created to make money. Like the DaVinci Code there are some facts but most of it is just plain bullshit.:grumpy:

Vivi said:
Could you elaborate some on exactly how they used them, and during what special moments in their culture?
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No. I can only speak in generalities about traditional ways in a public place. If you want to know more about the Cherokee belief system and such the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma now has a bit of information posted on their website.;)
I can share that my dear wife Barbie and I have attended a Native American Church meeting and partook of Peyote.
Neither of us had any visions or any hallucigenic experiences from partaking of the Cactus. I can also say that it kept Barbie up all night long as well as all the next day but she was in total control of her faculties.
Barbie did sleep well the next night though.;) :D
 
jurassicnarc44 said:
son, I hope this doesn't come as a blinding revelation, but a drug is anything the law says it is, rationalizing won't help, and the assholes in government (me) will be happy to give you plenty of time to think about that without interuption. :D :D :D
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First off, I ain't yer "son."

Secondly, I've always been opposed to street drugs, and have spoken out on this issue to members of the community who were at risk. I have also done my part in shutting down several crackhouses.

Third, I don't use drugs . . . maybe once a week I'll have a drink, and perhaps once a month I'll take some ibuprofin. I haven't smoked herb in nearly 10 years.

I do agree that the "assholes in government" can do pretty much anything they want -- including criminalizing a harmless plant and terrorizing the 12% of the population who are occasional smokers. I have no respect for an institution that blatently lies, utilizes propaganda, encourages children to snitch on their parents, lets C.I.s deal drugs and commit other crimes as long as they continue to supply good intel, permits narcs to use drugs on duty and entrap people, seizes autos and homes for small amounts of dried plant matter, and conducts paramilitary raids (complete with masks and MP-5 SMGs) on elderly hippies . . . things like that make me ashamed of my government.

Every other industrialized country has recognized that marijuana is not a serious problem. If it is legalized and regulated, it can actually be beneficial to society in many ways. This is a fact. Our own government's scientists have come to the same conclusion . . . at least twice. Their findings were disregarded. Marijuana remains on Schedule I (an extremely dangerous substance with absolutely NO medical application). Cocaine, heroin, and PCP are on Schedule II (strictly regulated due to high potential for misuse, but available to physicians). Marijuana grows in the wild, and can be cultivated simply by tossing a few seeds in a pile of manure . . . anyone can grow it . . . it isn't going away. In stark contrast, cocaine and heroin need to be smuggled into this country (frequently with the assistance of corrupt government officials), and most other drugs require expensive lab glassware, basic knowledge of chemistry, and the use of extremely dangerous chemicals to manufacture. By attempting to eradicate a harmless plant we are wasting billions, supporting organized crime, and incarcerating tens of thousands of non-violent offenders. Our government knows this. Certain persons in our government profit from this state of affairs. Others have a "social agenda" ("dirty hippies, negros, bikers, pagans, long hairs, homos, musicians, skateboarders, weird teenagers, and other degenerates all need to be locked up, infected with AIDs, and barred from employment in our Perfect Society").

I weep for the future of this country.
 
Very interesting thread. Thanks especially to Munk, Hollow, and Yvsa for posts that jangled about in my brain.

I've never used illegal drugs, and only rarely use legal ones (alcohol included). I had an incandescently brilliant friend in high school who took to using drugs, and suffered irreversable brain damage. If I'd ever had an inclination that direction, Perry's situation cured me of it.

So I can't tell you if mushroom-induced spiritual experiences are "the same as" ones that people can experience without. I can tell you that some of the mystical and spiritual experiences I've had without have been extraordinary, life-altering. And as I've never had to question whether they were "real" or "just the drug talking," have left me with few if any doubts of their value.

Of course, they take the work of preparing yourself - meditation, opening your mind etc. The allure of a drug is, I suppose, thinking you can short-circuit the work. Perhaps you can, but the personal benefits of the work itself more than compensate, in my view.

t.
 
When I was at FSU I went to see Leary speak. I was hoping for a good lecture, or at least funny stories. The dimmed the lights, turned on a lazer show, and he started with, "free your mind" bull, so I left. Even If I was all messed up, whats the point of wasting a buzz on that?
 
It would be much more productive to strive to alter your reality rather your perception of it. Justice and progress happen through a constant struggle against intrenched interests; and, frastration is a good motivator. Recreational drug use is anything but liberating or enlighthend. It is a tool used by the establishment to suppress the will of the opposition and to convert men into willing sheep. Most of us will meet God after an overdose of Morphine; there is no need to rush that experience; the living are here for a different purpose.

n2s
 
There are more than a couple forumites who by virtue of their experience have the in-house right to call someone 'son'; Jurrasicnarc and Sarge come to mind, but there are others.



munk
 
Dave Rishar said:
HD? The meth labs occasionally exploding is bad enough, but this stuff really screws people up over time. We have a lot of meth monsters in the stir over here and they're easy to spot. (Besides the missing teeth.) It makes them nuts. Even when they clean up, they're still nuts. While they're on it, they do some really...er...odd things. I won't go into details. It's nuts.
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2 people on my hollow have went to prison for it and one trailer went up like a roman candle. In general it seems to make people wore out and impulsive, more apt to get into a fight and promotes long drinking binges to come down enough to rest. I think truth be told a lot of domestic violence comes down when people are cranked up. I was never so glad as when the folks I am referring to went to prison. The general people who hung out at their places and their bad ass dogs were problems for me.:mad:
 
For TYR and those of you who have heard horror stories of the "narc from Hell" as typified by the last two paragraphs in Post #64, those of us in DEA play by the rules, and are not desperate and "out to get you". The loyal opposition is so wasted and paranoid they just fall into our hands, and then to answer the questions from friends "How could you have been so stupid?", the wild assertions start to fly. No one wants to be seen as a fool, so resorting to conspiracy theories takes the blame off the druggie, and hopefully convinces others that we cheat to win. The truth is far more simple; dopers are so fixated on acquiring chemicals that I can put on the shirt of a chemical distributor and hand the chemicals to him and testify about it later, or present myself to the bad guys as just another scum bag who wants to make money from drugs. Most of my days were spent LMFAO at the gyrations these guys go through. Is it dangerous? Sure. Can you get shot? Yup. I have shot a few, but for the most part would rather not.

TYR, you may not be my son, but I would gladly put my arm around your shoulder and BEG you not to head in the direction your posts seem to suggest. There is always someone other than the drug user who cares for them, but is adversely affected by anything that happens to those who use. My own son's sister-in-law is so wasted that she prostitutes herself regularly for drugs, while her three kids go hungry. The youngest was recently put into Children's Hospital nearly dead from loss of electrolytes caused by her giving the baby tapwater instead of milk for weeks on end.

Go ahead and hate me, mistrust my motives if you will, but rest assured I will continue to wish the best for you and yours.

jurassicnarc
 
"Anything that can be done chemically can be done by other means."

--William S. Burroughs


Personally, I don't understand why anyone else should care what I do with my personal brain chemistry.
 
As a libertarian, I don't. As your friend, I do.
These things need to be dealt with by friends and family, not bureacrats and jail cells.

They are not the end of the world. They are hardly the answer to it, either. Then can really screw up a young kid.
We pays our moneys and takes our chances.
We take care of each other.



munk
 
I was at the point where I thought I would just shut up, and watch the rest from the sidelines. A few more points may be of interest. At 61 I'm too old to be actively involved other than as a teacher, but a couple dozen kids have told me of one particular cop who stops kids, takes their marijuana without charging them, and uses it himself. Guys like that are a cancer that needs cut out immediately, because it leads young users to believe they won't be treated fairly, and that all the paranoid stuff in post #46 must be true. Local cops normally target low level dealers, and those users who commit minor crimes to get their drugs. State police often target guys who supply a county or two, but I have invited the attention of a couple troopers who feel as I do about corruption....Officer Dumbass' days are numbered.

My last marijuana case prior to retirement was 120,000 lbs, that's right, 60 tons, and the entire organization pled guilty because they knew I could prove it...multi ton loads were just disappearing into a black hole, until the day I showed up with fist fulls of grand jury subpoenas. In a separate case, I arrested a man in his 60's on his third charge of growing pot to sell to kids, in this case 350 acres. When the old man was sentenced to twenty years, he said "Judge, I don't think I can do twenty years." The judge replied "Do the best you can." Incidently, the old man had more than a dozen full auto M-16's loaded in a rack in his farm house. Federal agents do NOT target users, they target labs (my specialty) and national and international sources. Honestly, I would not have walked around the corner for five pounds of pot.

I have compassion for those who are strung out on drugs, but next to none for those who supply them (Incidently, most of the really good sources do not use their own drugs, nor do they permit anyone in their inner circle to use either). I have come to believe you can't change the whole world, but I can damn sure work on what's in front of me.
 
I first met & spent time with & sadly learnt from dangerous & succesful criminals in my life because drugs were illegal.

If they wernt illegal I wouldnt of been encountering them at the naive age of 16.

Spiral
 
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