God Is In The Magic Mushrooms

Drug dealers have firepower to protect ther stock from robbers.

They cant exactly ring the police.

Making drugs illegal doesnt make society a better place, I think.

Drugs mess some people up, particularily stimulants & booze. But the illegality of one doesnt cure the problem.

Spiral
 
I'll agree Spiral. A person should be free to eff up his life. Violence is introduced into the situation by making something a black market comodoty. It doesn't get rid of anything, just make the marketplace violent and shady. Plus you loose the taxes.
 
jurassicnarc44 said:
For TYR and those of you who have heard horror stories of the "narc from Hell" as typified by the last two paragraphs in Post #64, those of us in DEA play by the rules. . .
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I acknowledge that many DEA agents do, indeed, follow the rules. The biggest problems are with Customs and municipal narcotics agents.

Of course, nearly all Federal Agents are trustworthy and incorruptible . . . just look at what a great job the fellows at IRS and ATF have done at reinforcing our respect for government. . . .

I do not hate you, jurassicnarc -- actually, I get the impression that you honestly believe you were always doing the right thing.
 
jurassicnarc44 said:
Ia couple dozen kids have told me of one particular cop who stops kids, takes their marijuana without charging them, and uses it himself.
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I knew a Deputy Sheriff who'd pull over known dealers, confiscate several ounces, and still charge 'em for either a gram or paraphernalia . . . same guy eventually got busted because his pothead wife was stupid enough to grow a few plants behind their house and they were spotted . . . he resigned and was never charged. On the other side of the spectrum, I knew several cops who, instead of flushing the weed they confiscated from college kids down the toilet, assigned that task to someone whose brother was going through chemotherapy.

jurassicnarc said:
Federal agents do NOT target users, they target labs (my specialty) and national and international sources. Honestly, I would not have walked around the corner for five pounds of pot.
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I'm glad to hear that you agree that 5# of marijuana is not worthy of prosecution, although the current administration is very adamant in their "Zero Tolerance" approach, and do indeed target small timers. For example, "Operation Pipe Dream" in which persons who sold custom waterpipes were raided by federal agents (and Tommy Chong sentenced to prison). For further examples, the entrapment of persons who attempt to purchase seeds through the mail, or purchase grow lamps or hydroponics systems from stores staffed by agents. But perhaps all this sort of thing started after you retired. . . .
 
Abuse of power happens everywhere. Look at our beloved UN.

Weaver and Waco were not accomplished by rank and file DEA agents.

Lemme toss this out;

Methamphetamine in the form of ice is hitting the entire US. IT is said to be so addictive that even persons without the profile suseptability can become addicts.

Now, I'm in favor of legalization of most drugs. I think we should take our injuries, pay for our dead, and move on. But at some point, there must be government regulation. What about meth and PCP?
What we gonna do about new designer drugs that allow you to see God but take 2.5% of your IQ each time, or leave you barren? This isn't going to get better. And New Orleans showed us that the segment of third world or disenfranchised America is enormous and clueless.

Oh, and if you dont' think designer drugs will get out of hand; ecstasty changes the way neurons act forever. That's getting over our heads fast.

munk
 
tyr_shadowblade said:
I
For further examples, the entrapment of persons who attempt to purchase seeds through the mail, or purchase grow lamps or hydroponics systems from stores staffed by agents. But perhaps all this sort of thing started after you retired. . . .
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One who orders hundreds or thousands of seeds from 'seed banks' does not intend to grow 5 or 10 plants for personal use. I have quite a number of non-coerced (actually some guys were rather proud of their indoor grows) post-arrest statements which say they were harvesting $250,000 three times a year from an area the size of a single car garage or less. Using new technology, we were getting exceptionally good at finding these without any help from informants.

As for guys who sell grow lights and hydroponics, I did the undercover work on the largest supplier of such hardware in the US, taping his instructions on how to grow the best stuff, and then charging him with aiding and abetting. He folded up, pled guilty and gave me the probable cause for over 3,000 search warrants in 30+ states. I asked for and received the services of every state police trooper in Indiana, the national guard, and dozens of out of state DEA agents to do 350 search warrants in one morning starting at 4 AM. Only three, less than 1%, did not produce a seizure and arrest. When I say I wouldn't walk around the corner for 5 lbs of pot, I'm not agreeing with you that it's unimportant, just that I had bigger fish to fry, and a man has to have his priorities straight. :D THAT's why I said I was LMAO, earlier, not that such stuff was beneath me. Agents aren't special, they're just ordinary people put in extrodinary circumstances.
 
jurassicnarc44 said:
One who orders hundreds or thousands of seeds from 'seed banks' does not intend to grow 5 or 10 plants for personal use. I have quite a number of non-coerced (actually some guys were rather proud of their indoor grows) post-arrest statements which say they were harvesting $250,000 three times a year from an area the size of a single car garage or less. Using new technology, we were getting exceptionally good at finding these without any help from informants.

As for guys who sell grow lights and hydroponics, I did the undercover work on the largest supplier of such hardware in the US, taping his instructions on how to grow the best stuff, and then charging him with aiding and abetting. He folded up, pled guilty and gave me the probable cause for over 3,000 search warrants in 30+ states. I asked for and received the services of every state police trooper in Indiana, the national guard, and dozens of out of state DEA agents to do 350 search warrants in one morning starting at 4 AM. Only three, less than 1%, did not produce a seizure and arrest. When I say I wouldn't walk around the corner for 5 lbs of pot, I'm not agreeing with you that it's unimportant, just that I had bigger fish to fry, and a man has to have his priorities straight. :D THAT's why I said I was LMAO, earlier, not that such stuff was beneath me. Agents aren't special, they're just ordinary people put in extrodinary circumstances.
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I remember when that happened. Operation Green Merchant around '87 right??
 
The fact remains that the "War on Drugs" has done nothing to slow the use of dangerous illegal drugs in the U.S. and the dangerous infrastructures that smuggle and deliver them. Nothing.

As this thread started out discussing the potentially spiritually opening effects of certain substances, I would like to return to that.

Our modern society moves so quickly, with so little regard for the presence of simple beauty and subtle revelations, that I have to wonder if a substance that might FORCE one to slow down for a certain period of time might have a stabilizing effect in the long run. Sort of an enforced reminder that it's still possible, and beneficial, to open yourself to something sublime that's right in front of you, but doesn't necessarily intrude through the frenetic slurry of (post) modern life.

But beyond that, I have to agree with the numerous observations that it's still not accomplishing anything that five days in the woods wouldn't. Given the choice, I will opt for the five days every time, but I can see the value of a "shortcut" once in a while as well.

Add into that equation that cannabis usage has been proven to be less dangerous than either smoking or alcohol abuse to your health, and at latest study, seems to only "stun" brain cells instead of killing them, I don't think that the argument that it's "bad for you" can really hold much water anymore.
 
The often heralded statement.

" If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

Is very true.



Is also true if one changes guns for drugs & says.


" If drugs are outlawed, only outlaws will have drugs."



Spiral
 
Marijuana helps to ease the sufering of individuals afflicted with cancer, pancreatis, glaucoma, AIDS, and several other serious diseases. It greatly reduces the nausea and depression associated with chemotherapy -- a cocktail of toxic pharmaceuticals used to either destroy tumors or assist those with debilitated immune systems.

This is a fact. It has been documented. Under public pressure, our government has financed at least two studies which supported these conclusions -- which both the current and former administrations have chosen to ignore.

Hypocrites like Ashcroft and Bennett engaged in a campaign of asinine propoganda versus teenaged pot smokers, as if it were little different from ice or crack -- such blatant BS not only wasted billions of taxpayer dollars, but was the subject of ridicule and derision by nearly everyone except the truly ignorant. Then, they referred to marijuana as "the most dangerous drug" (presumably because of the fact that its use tends to be tolerated by many in our society), and stood firm in their stance that it had "no medicinal value whatsoever."

Prior to this, several states had effectively decriminalized the posession of "personal use" amounts for those who were seriously ill. California had a system by which a physician could write a prescription attesting to the fact that marijuana would reduce a patient's sufferring, and that patient would then be eligible to obtain small amounts of a variety of types of marijuana from "buyers clubs" -- which were operated openly and charged far less than "retail" (street prices). These clubs were subsequently raided, doctors who had dared to write prescriptions were threatened with the loss of their medical license, and even the patients themselves were visited by law enforcement agents who seized their medicine and threatened them with arrest.

Perhaps this discusion has gone way off topic, and I apologize for my part in that. However, like marijuana, mushrooms have never killed anyone and they too are a naturally growing plant -- but the penalty for possession of small amounts is typically a felony (unlike marijuana, which is typically either a violation or a misdemeanor).

Although I am opposed to the abuse of either marijuana or mushrooms (as well as the abuse of alcohol or prescription pills), I recognize that use does not necessarily constitute "abuse." Furthermore, I believe that the use of either mushrooms or peyote on rare occasions for spiritual or religious reasons is valid . . . and in reply to a prior post by another forumite, it is not the same type of state that can be reached via meditation. You can do a lot with various forms of meditation, and it is much safer, but it the experience is far different. On the negative side, it can be traumatic for a first timer if certain precautions are not taken. First, there are no effects at all for nearly an hour, which might lead some to either take more or conclude that they "didn't work." Next, when they do kick in, it can be far more intense than expected -- if someone isn't there to calm you down, panic is a common reaction. And, unlike marijuana which has mild effects and wears off within an hour, a "trip" on mushrooms can last between 4 and 12 hours, depending on various factors -- if it "goes bad" there is plenty of time for an unsupervised person to get themselves in trouble. For example, they might think it's a good idea to go for a swim, walk in the dark forest during wintertime, walk through a dangerous urban neighborhood, or even something as simple as a stroll to the local supermarket could go horribly wrong. It is NOT for children, and should NOT be taken recreationally.
 
hollowdweller said:
I remember when that happened. Operation Green Merchant around '87 right??
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The facts described above were only a part of Green Merchant, but you're right. I reiterate, my real focus was ferreting out clandestine lab operators (a specialty rare even in DEA) and finding fugitives that others had given up on. There is a book about the first 25 years of DEA, and as far as I know, I'm the only guy in the book described as best known for his work on clandestine labs both here and overseas. Makes me feel good, but even my grandchildren will have forgotten. T'was a hell of a good romp though...:D :D :D
 
Kismet said:
http://www.cherokeebyblood.com/religion.htm



I have no idea of how accurate this site is, but it may have some worth-while information for the curious.
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Kis my brother and friend at least the part titled, "Belief System" is taken directly from the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma website. I didn't check out all of either place but I will notify the C.N.O. about the site to see if they care if it is being used without a statement saying so. If there was one I didn't see it.
 
Yuh nSuh?

This was the credit paragraph at the bottom of the site. Don't know if it gives the appropriate credit:



Some information on this page taken from www.cherokee.org,
provided by the Cherokee Nation Cultural Resource Center cultural@cherokee.org
as well as from Walkingbear?s web site.

"The little people" and "Booger dancer and mask" illustrations have been taken from the book "The Cherokee People,

The Story of the Cherokee from Earliest Origins to Contemporary Times" by Thomas E. Mails, as well as some information.
It is a magnificent piece of historical reconstruction, extensively and beautifully illustrated, published by Marlowe & Company, NY.

f you want to learn everything about the Cherokee culture, I recommend you to get this book.
 
tyr_shadowblade said:
Prior to this, several states had effectively decriminalized the posession of "personal use" amounts for those who were seriously ill. California had a system ......
Perhaps this discusion has gone way off topic, and I apologize for my part in that. However, like marijuana, mushrooms have never killed anyone and they too are a naturally growing plant -- but the penalty for possession of small amounts is typically a felony (unlike marijuana, which is typically either a violation or a misdemeanor).

.
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What the states do, even ultra-liberal California, is largely academic, because federal law ALWAYS supercedes (read trumps) state law and local ordinances. The last I looked, Growing and Distribution of Marijuana is still a Felony ( see 21 U.S.C. 841 thru 846...I think...it's been awhile, see also the U.S. Sentencing Commission Guidelines...a third offense for Distribution can get YOU life without parole) No Whining, and claiming ignorance that it is a felony will get you exactly nothing but a conviction in federal court.

All of your arguments have been put forward in a wide variety of public forums. Many of your facts aren't fact but opinion, and the American public has not been taken in. Saying the majority of Americans want drugs legalized is ludicrous, because your majority (if it existed) would long ago have changed the law. The American public still sees a cause effect relationship between drug use of any kind, and a wide variety of other criminal behavior. Your neighbors don't want it next door or anywhere around their kids. In the spring of 1968, two kids (seperate incidents) overdosed in my classroom, and I took a hard right turn into law enforcement and never looked back. Now it's someone else's turn, and DEA is still right there. We never busted a user unless he was also a decent dealer...federal courts are too busy to take the time otherwise. Why am I still teaching high school, when I could have propped my feet up eleven years ago? Because high school kids are still struggling with choices that can hurt them in the long term. No animosity here, brother man, just setting the record straight. ;)
 
jurassicnarc44 said:
What the states do, even ultra-liberal California, is largely academic, because federal law ALWAYS supercedes (read trumps) state law and local ordinances. The last I looked, Growing and Distribution of Marijuana is still a Felony ( see 21 U.S.C. 841 thru 846...I think...it's been awhile, see also the U.S. Sentencing Commission Guidelines...a third offense for Distribution can get YOU life without parole) No Whining, and claiming ignorance that it is a felony will get you exactly nothing but a conviction in federal court.

All of your arguments have been put forward in a wide variety of public forums. Many of your facts aren't fact but opinion, and the American public has not been taken in. Saying the majority of Americans want drugs legalized is ludicrous, because your majority (if it existed) would long ago have changed the law.
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Much hostility coming from your end . . . I think you could really benefit from a few bonghits. ;) I recommend the Bubbleberry hybrid for your particular condition. You don't really think that God will doom you to Hell for taking a puff for medicinal reasons, do you?
 
Brother Tyr, (grinning broadly) just consider me the Oh so loyal opposition. Go in peace, smoke your stuff in the privacy of your own home....as for me and mine, we don't need it to be happy. Eight of my eleven grandkids have been at my house for the last two days....What more could an old man ask?
 
jurassicnarc44 said:
The facts described above were only a part of Green Merchant, but you're right. I reiterate, my real focus was ferreting out clandestine lab operators (a specialty rare even in DEA) and finding fugitives that others had given up on. There is a book about the first 25 years of DEA, and as far as I know, I'm the only guy in the book described as best known for his work on clandestine labs both here and overseas. Makes me feel good, but even my grandchildren will have forgotten. T'was a hell of a good romp though...:D :D :D
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There was an interesting episode on the meth epidemic on Frontline and they interviewed this guy from the DEA I think it was. He was talking about Quaaludes and how after Rorer and Lemmon stopped making them and they began to be bootlegged that he found that there was one key ingredient that the labs could not make, and he went around to the businesses that made it and convinced them to stop making it and that's why they are no longer around.

The Frontline special also said that while the small time guys were using cold medicine to make the meth, that the big problem was actual shipments of the raw materials coming in from other countries for large scale production and they were tryint to cut that off.
 
Anything can be a tool or a trap. There is no limit to the destructiveness of some; this is obvious in America, where the majority of deaths are now caused by complications resulting from obesity.

A drug is a substance that causes a change in the body. Drugs can be synthetic or natural. Even if one wanted to stipulate recreational drugs, these include caffeine, chocolate and sugar.

Jnarc, I have absolutely no doubt as to the purity of your intentions, but I cannot agree with your political stance. Yes, I know you have known lots of people who have used illegal drugs to hurt themselves, and that some of these people have hurt other people. That in no way invalidates what I'm saying.

The US stance on drugs is wrong, badly wrong. The whole concept of Nanny Government is wrong, and contrary to the best ideals of our founding fathers. Our prisons are packed with those sent there on drug-related offenses, while genuine bad guys- those who deliberately hurt other people by way or robbery, rape, or other violent crimes- are too often set free due to lack of prison space.

Recreational drugs don't "make" people hurt themselves or other people. Some people use illegal drugs in that way. It's the people. It's not the drugs.
As I said, some people can get trapped in anything, and they'll keep looking until they find a trap.

And some, find tools. I'll be happy to have this talk in person to anyone who's interested: I can't say some things here. I will say I am so much happier, and better than I used to be, in so many ways. I'm not saying any chemical "made" this positive change happen in me...but something helped me construct a better me.

Just my thoughts.

John
 
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