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I admit to rocking back on my heels a few times, when some (to me) apparently harmless comment has generated a fit of pique from someone. Rather than over react, and take myself out of the picture for awhile, I think I shall simply decline comment, hoping that someone else more familiar with the conversation, or the root of the arguement will step in. I still appreciate what I have taken to be genuine goodwill on the part of most Cantinistas, which in my view is something not often found on the web. For certain, I don't feel the necessity of having the last word......That I leave to all y'all.
 
Folks, I'm really disappointed to see your reasons for staying or going come down to nothing more than being asked (or told) to post political stuff in the appropriate forum. You may not realize it, but politics cause more trouble than any other single subject. The political forum was set up specifically with rules in place to preclude flame wars, name calling, bigotry, racism and out and out dirty dealing.

I know...you are *all* above that. Is there a mechanism in the Cantina for selectively locking out the troublemakers? Is there a tool here to stop any of you from becoming inflamed and going too far?

You do realize, I'm sure, that others have left because politics *were* allowed, right?

I have *no* doubt that Bill could have kept things both wide open and upright...unfortunately, Bill is gone and for the moment, you're stuck with me.

The powers that be (BF Owner Spark, Cougar, other senior Mods) have designed and developed a forum for politics and that's all there is to it.
 
Locking down the discussion thread is more than unilaterly deciding to move all pollitical threads. Andy made an honest effort to figure out what was going on, and the fact he was treated as he was, as others trying to discuss, was disgraceful.


munk
 
As usual, I am in need of enlightenment. Can someone tell me how the HI cantina came to be or direct me to another thread(s) where this background can be found?

As mentioned by LVC, it is interesting that HI is the only BF manufacturers forum to have its own dedicated subforum for off-topic discussions (please correct me if this is inaccurate). The powers that be must have thought that an HI cantina was a worthy endeavour and remains so.

Thanks.

Eric
 
The 'political thread' issue is almost a red herring, and here is why:

The management of BF cared exactly nil about our having political discussions, until it became a problem. It first became a problem with Nasty dumping them into Whine and Cheese, which pissed Cougar off. Nasty found out after a year this was not the right place, so took them to the political forum.

My point is there was no announcement of "I'm moving all political thread for now on," And that then when Andy and others wanted to know why, they were shut down.

Josh Feldman hated political threads, he wrote a thread about it he hates them so much. Yet Josh is gone today, not because of that, but because of an atmophere which discourages the types of dialogue HI forum was famous for.

That is what I care about also.

munk
 
Eric006 said:
The powers that be must have thought that an HI cantina was a worthy endeavour and remains so.
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Worthy and required are two things that arent necessarily the same. It sounds like the cantina was initially opened to quell a huge amount of single forum activity by splitting it apart. This may have been a temporary fix that has lasted for a long time, more because there wasn't a better option, or there wasn't the time to deal with it.

From whats being said now, it appears that the cantina is supposed to act as a sub community forum, rather then a sub bladeforums. The idea being that Himalayan Imports has enough of a group of posters to warrant a dedicated community forum. As a basic organizational strategy to streamline both forum activity as well as hardware usage, it's understandable why it would be set up like that.

I respect Nasty's decision to move the thread. That being said, I do really like the idea of being able to just talk the subject over with munk, ad astra, bruise leee, spectre, and the other forum regulars, rather then the whole of bladeforums. I'm not choosing a particular side because I dont know wich is best. One seems to be best for bladeforums, the other for the HI community.

This is of course sparks boat, so his word is law for the forums.

If I was in nasty's place, I might have placed a post stateing that it was going to be moved if it kept on the political track rather then personal, but I think I would still be compelled to move it to the dedicated political forum. He is the administrator of bladeforum rules, and the rules seem fairly clear cut. I just don't think they've been applied heavily to the cantina yet, so its a bit of an unpleasent shock given the lax-ness thats been enjoyed thus far.

The only way that would change is if spark gave the okay for political, general, or gb&u type posts to be allowed in the cantina based on its sub/dedicated-community forum status. While I would like to see that happen, it would only last as long as it didn't present a major problem to the bladeforums servers, the general community, or the moderators.
 
This is a good time for me to repeat, again, that Nasty is not going to be Bill or me or anyone, and that one cannot appreciate the different pulls of being a mod until one has walked that walk. I've spoken my peace. I've said I want a forum where it's members are free to speak to one another. I would not have weighed in at all but for the locking of yesterdays free speech thread. Good afternoon all.



munk
 
The management of BF cared exactly nil about our having political discussions, until it became a problem. It first became a problem with Nasty dumping them into Whine and Cheese, which pissed Cougar off. Nasty found out after a year this was not the right place, so took them to the political forum.
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This is at best misplaced blame...at worst...I will not say.

I've been hanging around the H.I. forum since I first joined BFC and there have always been political threads that got overheated and had to be calmed down.

Mistakes happen...let's see 'em through and move on. Communicating across the internet is Hard! If it ends in a spout...we should all just agree to dust ourselves off and get back on the fence.

The Cantina is a cantina....couldn't be so without a few brawls. And definitely not without a tough bartender/bouncer to keep the peace. Note: Nasty's job is not to be our friend...but to keep us from each other's throats.
 
Just a disclaimer at the beginning that this isn't aimed at anyone in particular. Just some thoughts over the last couple of days.

I don't post much here and as a matter of fact I don't post all that much at all. I have been around here for a long time though. A lot longer than most. It is very sad for me to witness a lot of the inflamed and fractionary posts and thinking that i am seeing. I do remember Bill and I do remember his character. I would never tell someone to not speak up when they strongly believe in something. Neither would he. I do believe that what he believed in was working through inflammations without resorting to threats, tantrums or even giving up. Not on something that he believd in. HI is proof of this. I do not either. i would encourage everyone right now to take the high road, seek to help rather than correct and most of all do your best to love the guy that is pissing you off. This is what community is about. It is hard but it is worth it. If you need to take time off to cool down do so but never give up on something that you hold important in your life.
 
I'd like to apologize to Keno because I offended him. Sorry bro.
 
Hmmm. I've looked at this thread a couple of times. And the one that started it. I'm not sure what to think. I do think that we need to take a breath or two. detach from the situation a little.

This is not directed at any of these threads, or to anyone, rather this is a general comment and my only opinion on the matter. I believe that we should be able to discuss anything as long as there is no harm in it, and as long as we respect each other in the process. That is all I know to say for now.
 
munk said:
The 'political thread' issue is almost a red herring, and here is why:

The management of BF cared exactly nil about our having political discussions, until it became a problem. It first became a problem with Nasty dumping them into Whine and Cheese, which pissed Cougar off. Nasty found out after a year this was not the right place, so took them to the political forum.

My point is there was no announcement of "I'm moving all political thread for now on," And that then when Andy and others wanted to know why, they were shut down.

Josh Feldman hated political threads, he wrote a thread about it he hates them so much. Yet Josh is gone today, not because of that, but because of an atmophere which discourages the types of dialogue HI forum was famous for.

That is what I care about also.

munk
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Hey Munk,

Email me when you get the chance.
 
I believe that we should be able to discuss anything as long as there is no harm in it, and as long as we respect each other in the process. That is all I know to say for now. Lion's Roar


Me too. I realize I'm a divisive figure, and no matter how or what or why I say a thing, there will always be those who take offense. (I'm not a good candidate for political office, I'm afraid....) I'm very happy to see so many taking a step forward and breaking the apathy. This is not a 'my' issue, this is a forum of people.


munk
 
i, once again, do not know what is really going on. i assume that there are some political discussions going on, and a recent blip in gun topics.

it's good to air out the cantina once in a while, seems like we go through this in cycles and frankly, i think it's really good for us. kinda clarifies and focusses things... but in the end, we obtain a much better understanding of eachother.

i guess as time passes, we begin to really move off topic (which is fine) but we begin to press into the border realms of controversy and polarization. this is when i usually see our mod's snap us back to moderation.

i truly believe that once we cross into that realm, it's really hard to cross back. that's my opinion, others will disagree. i have always trusted our mods to perform that unpopular move of snapping us back.

but at the same time, i hope our voiced displeasure of having our ears pulled reminds the mods that there is freedom in the cantina and that it will move into hard areas sometimes.

i think we have to be vigilant. that we don't take the cantina to the darkside of no return but at the same time, no restrict our freedoms. freedom with responsibility sort of thing.


now i could have completely been off, maybe this issue has to do with BF rather than the cantina. but than again...

i don't have to read every subject. i read what i likes.

and i likes the cantina.

-D
 
Well, here is a similar thread with a completely different view. Upgrade your membership to have the most vocal forum. Squeaky wheel, grease and all. I have to believe that paying members do more to get things changed than non paying members, but that IMHO.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=454901

EDIT - Not to say there is anything wrong with protesting by not renewing, but there are always other ways to look at an issue.
 
munk said:
I believe that we should be able to discuss anything as long as there is no harm in it, and as long as we respect each other in the process. That is all I know to say for now. Lion's Roar


Me too. I realize I'm a divisive figure, and no matter how or what or why I say a thing, there will always be those who take offense. (I'm not a good candidate for political office, I'm afraid....) I'm very happy to see so many taking a step forward and breaking the apathy. This is not a 'my' issue, this is a forum of people.


munk
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The Cantina was not around while Bill was with us, and there was never a good reason for having it. Himilayan Imports was an interesting comunity for as long as we could discuss khukuris, their colorful history, Nepal, the world, and tell a few jokes; every so often, we would even share a few stories about Himalayan Imports and the knives that we all like to collect. We have fragmented all that into impotence and the place has grown deadly dull. How much can you say about a style of knife, a hunk of steel, and a single brand?

Politics, others brands of knives, special events who cares? We have administratively mastered all and produced a purely repetitive boredom. At one time this place was very special; a place where HI knives were merely a necessary and brief commercial interruption - one which we all excitely welcomed for the opportunity to support such a wonderful forum of friends. Bill was one of the best sale persons I have ever seen. It is a shame that we have chosen to stiffle what he had started; we would have done better to learn from the master and follow his lead. Trolling and firestorms do not happen in forums that people enjoy - they happen when people are so exhausted by the idle chit-chat - that they would lite a fire to seek out signs of intelligent life.

I can understand why you might want to leave. But, it would be better if you would stick around and remind others of what once was and can be again. The Bladeforums may eventually earn an ISO rating; but, I suspect they would do better to keep the place lively and interesting. The purpose of these forums is to inform, to sell, and to enjoy each other's company; and, no amount of administrative thinkering is going to get us there.

n2s
 
At one time this place was very special; a place where HI knives were merely a necessary and brief commercial interruption - one which we all excitely welcomed for the opportunity to support such a wonderful forum of friends.
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Very true indeed. "what has this got to do with Khukuries? Everything" was a very response Bill would have in a thread that went 18 different directions and had very little and often nothing, to do with khuks.

I don't know much about the current dust up, but some folks I respect very much seem very upset about the way things are, and so I am paying much closer attention when I actually have the time to get on here.

I can understand why you might want to leave. But, it would be better if you would stick around and remind others of what once was and can be again
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agreed. The Cantina would not be the same, and we'd lose a huge chunk of our collective soul with your leaving--we need people of conscience who will tell it like it is.
 
Well said, Ted. That actually was my first thought too. Kevin Cashen is a prime example of this. He is at odds with many things in the American Bladesmith Society - the way they run things, the test requirements, etc. - and yet remains a Mastersmith in full standing. Because he knows that change almost always comes from within.
 
FWIW, with regards politics and religion; the majority of folks here (at HI Cantina) are the most mature group of people I have conversed with online.:thumbup:
 
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