Got my first CRK Sebenza yesterday. The Emperor's new knife.

[BellaBlades]

The Sebenza is easily worth what they charge. Gorgeous knives with amazing fit and finish.
After owning every knife on the market that has appealed to me. CRK is still my favorite for getting what you pay for. Flawless knives.

What I appreciate the most is the smooth and simple build and operation done flawlessly on each one. One of the few knives I actually have fun taking down and cleaning up. No flipper, bearing and wasted bling. Great PB washer and a blade that will slice and cut all day with ease. But a tip that is tough enough for whatever you need.

That said the three I purchased were all 325-345 since they were lightly used by the previous owner.
For someone that knows what quality and precision feels like. They will understand.
It may not be for you. But that is about it.
The offering they have as far as inlays , cnc and unique options are just stunning in hand. The Damaskus is also very nice.
Your post made me giggle and then realize how badly I want one again!

Atleast you can return it since it is still new.
If I were to get one new I would drop a few extra dollars and get something with nice inlays or unique option.

The most recent one I had was last year and it was a plane jane 21 large. I sold it to help fund my wifes mother day gift. I have good memories with that knife. I had it with us when she took me to the East coast custom knife show. What an amazing time we had. I wish we were going again this year, but I do not see that happening.

I am a bit of a steel freak and that is something that is factored in. But the S35V is tough, just not as hard as the super steels I love. I can certainly look past that if I find a special CRK that I love.

 

[ToddM]

I can certainly see the "not impressed" opinion happening especially at first. It's very subtle fit/finish differences that convince people that CRK knives are worth it. It takes amazing precision to get the consistency and smoothness they do with washers. However, over the years the quality gap to the big production companies and CRK has also shrank significantly. There's a lot more competition now than there was 15 years ago both in production and other "mid-tech" knives.

To me subtle precision is about all CRK has going for them these days. I have knives with more comfortable and secure handles, and better edge holding steels at close to half the price. They're not as smooth as my CRKs, but they are getting closer. More importantly because I prefer function over form the premium steels simply hold their edge much longer, without sustaining damage in my daily use, and with a similar amount of maintenance.

So while I can appreciate my CRK knives for their precision, they don't find their way into my pocket much anymore due to the poor edge holding performance of S35vn steel. But every time I feel that hydraulic smooth opening and vault like *thunk* it's likely to bring out a grin few other knives I've owned can.

 

[marthinus]

My post on the matter since around 2012.

Well, here is some food for thought, or just some good reading material regarding tight tolerances, that CRK is renowned for, locks and high dollar knives that Sal Glesser, owner of Spyderco has mentioned through the years on the forums (ps, search is your friend).

Another thing to remember is that the Manufacturing Quality award that CRK has won so many times are not chosen by a panel, it is voted for by fellow knife makers. Even Bob Dozier, a very established maker in his own right has CRK pocket knives and I love his motto of : if it feels like climbing through a barbed wire fence, there is something wrong. Slim, sleek and simple knives.

[video=youtube;nI_73zvGx5Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI_73zvGx5Y[/video]

A few weeks back, in this thread, someone asked if there was a Spyderco which could compete with the Sebenza. Sal eventually chimed in. His post was primarily a response to someone's skepticism regarding the origins of the framelock. He noted that he had, in his personal collection, a Chris Reeve knife with an earlier lock of Chris' called the "Lock 45". He further noted that it dated back to the 1970's and was the predecessor of the Reeve Integral Lock. That lead to someone asking what it looked like, at which point he suggested sending it to me to be photographed. He also noted in a later post that it was a small knife. It arrived a couple days ago and he wasn't kidding about its size. For the benefit of those who like "dimensional data" it weighs 1.375 ounces (40 grams) has a closed length of 2 13/16" (71 mm), a blade length of 2 7/32" (57mm) with a 2 1/16" (52mm) cutting edge, and is 5/16" (8mm) thick. For those who find photographic comparisons easier to visualize, the first photo below shows it with a Kiwi and my LH Mnandi.

Beyond that, it's an intriguing design. The action is glassy smooth and the lock up is rock solid despite the fact that the blade is only supported from one side. The small thumb stud and smooth handle, thin on the off side, make it difficult to open, but might be less of a problem for someone right handed and with better motor skills. No clip, that was probably not even a gleam in Sal's eye yet. I'm assuming the handle is titanium anodized to a bronze hue but that, and any other questions regarding it would best be answered by Sal, or someone intimately familiar with Chris Reeve's early knives.

Closed, lock side:

close up, to show one of the two ball bearings:

The balls do not serve as detents, just to smooth the action. Only friction holds the blade closed.

Another close up, note the angled locking surfaces on the blade...

Lock side view, half open. You can almost see the lower ball bearing:

Top view, almost fully open:

Fully open, lock side:

Finally, the design does have one peculiarity, you can fold the blade in the wrong direction, at least until the thumb stud makes contact with the frame...

Paul

My Personal Website - - - - - - A Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting - - - - - - Kiwimania
Dead horses beaten, sacred cows tipped, chimeras hunted when time permits.
Spyderco Collector # 043 - - WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
It's easy to grin when your ship comes in and good fortune and fame are your lot, but the man worthwhile is the man who can smile with his shorts twsited up in a knot. - Morey Amsterdam

Well, I cannot speak for Chris Reeve Knives, but I will offer an opinion.

I've known Chris and Ann for many years. We worked together when Chris was in South Africa.

A CRK knife is not a custom knife, nor is it a production knife. They are in a class by themselves. They've taken many years to develop their reputation.

Each piece is custom made by skilled custom makers. CRK tolerances and standards are the highest I've seen in processes like surface grinding and heat treat. There is a limit to their production capacity.

Chris is pretty anal on quality. "Quality is time. = Time is money". He pays his craftsmen a fair wage, and he charges a fair margin, he gives the world a product like no other. Chris and Ann work hard and they make a good living. "Enormous profits" is an inside joke that Chris and I laugh about. Frankly, I think they'd feel guilty if they made too much money.

The "Market" will determine if his business strategies work, regardless of what they are. If they don't work, adjustments are made....that's how businesses survive.

BTW, the flip side of a "bargain driven" market is manufacturers are forced to import product (export jobs) from China to compete in the need for the "lower price". More complications.

sal

Hi Dulleddown,

More profit is usually associated with higher price. That's normal. Profit is usually a percentage of sales price. To think that a high priced auto should garner the same proft as a low priced auto is not in accord with business. It might be the same percentage, but being more expensive, it will be more profit.

Unless you are a manufacturer, familiar with close tolerance manufacturing of heat treated steel & Titanium parts, you are not likely to be able to see all of the differences between one of Chris' knives and others. For example; CRK keeps 0.0005 tolerance on surface grinding. That's one sixth the thickness of a hair. Do you have the knowledsge and equipment to discover that tolerance?

In the end, it's all about trust. CRK took many years to build and maintain their repuation. Built with consistent focus. Even those trying to make a "cheaper" version must "leave out processes" or "soften their tolerance", or they will cost as much.

Rarely do you pay for the "name". That's a bullshit sales pitch made up by the ignorant claiming to offer the same for less. Money valuation between countries might offer a "deal" for a while until the money value balances, but all in all, you will get what you pay for.

sal

-----------------------------------------------------

Just because you can't see the difference doesn't mean it isn't there, it just means you can't see it.

Hi GWLee,

The benefit of tight tolerances is usually for long term durability as well as smooth function. Long term durability is difficult to determine in a short term decision. That's why reputation is important.

sal

Nice video.

High dollar knives are high dollar because they cost more to make. It might be materials (Titanium, unubtanium, etc.), it might be tolerances (Chris' has lotsa zeros after the decimal before hitting numbers), it might be labor (carving, engraving, etc.).

Sometmes those differences are difficult if not impossible for even the trained eye to detenct, generally impossible for a new student.

Just because you can't see the difference, doesn't mean it isn't there, sometimes it just means you can't see it.

sal

At the same time there are many people that feel the knife is not worth it, I did until I read Sal Glesser's comments and bought one myself after 3 years of saving (the knife was later taken in a mugging) and I was UTTERLY UNDERWHELMED when I bought it, even though I handled it before hand I just felt like owning something of true quality for the first time in my life (like a good quality car/suite/watch/camera). Until I used it non stop, on the farm etc and everything just started "flowing" and making sence. I replaced the stolen knife with an Insingo. I will always have a CRK and they retail for around $625 here. They are, for me at least, worth it and my personal connection, what the Sebenza has meant in my life, makes it special for me.

I have rambled a bit, but I hope some of what I have said has helped you to form your own opinion on the matter.

 

[jaxxsun]

I disagree with any one that says the Sebenza needs some inovation!. I have not been a knife guy my entire life like some. But unlike some? I have a deep respect for something that works flawlessly time after time.
There are a slew of ways you can order up your Sebenza. Then there are countless customising tweekes you can get too. It seems that some people are not happy unless something is not "New and Improved" every fifteen minutes. Well here is something for you guys to think about.

A fella had a out side of the box design for a new kind of gun. He had no idea that it would be what every other gun in the world to this day is measured against. It is a AK47. The designed has changed little since the first. But your can tweek it to no end. To fit your needs. But for those others that need something new every fifteen minutes. You can get a AR15 and sleep better knowing that it is made in the USA.

So what I am saying is the Sebenaza is a lot like a AK47. Was ahead of the curve. Has stood the test of time and is the Bench mark. There are newer fancier and probably cheaper alternatives. But what do you want to really reach for when needed? New and improved or tried and true?

 

[KELAMA]

Even among all of the hype about them, I often hear people saying that they are not for everyone, and I cetrianly agree with that sentiment.
I have many knives that do certain things better than the sebenza. Better edge retention, better slicing performance, faster action, etc., but all of those knives have still fallen short of the Sebenza on a few major things (I use a Sebenza 25):
1. The Sebenza is not only made to be able to be taken apart, but is encouraged to be for service and maintenance.
2. The Sebenza is one of the easiest knives to sharpen I own. It does not hold an edge forever, but it holds an edge MUCH longer than any other knife that is nearly as field-serviceable.
3. The Sebenza is perfectly easy to maintain and clean. I have used my Sebenza as a backup to my field knife for hunting and it has performed better than I could have thought. Then it comes apart and is completely cleaned out in less than 30 mins. In a tent...you don't get many knives that pull that off.

Now, is that the "perfect" knife? Nope. There isn't one.
Is it my prefered EDC? Nope. I carry may Shirogorov 95T WAY more than I carry my Sebenza. That's just my preference though, and this is just yours. Nothing wrong with it, but I'm trying to be fair because I don't think that the value and the good points of the Sebenza can be seen right away.

While I think you are fully entitled to your opinion, the use and longevity of the Sebenza is its true value and why it has the hype. I would easily wager that with equal amounts of use, my Sebenza will outlast my 95T, and most if not all of my other knives. It was built that way, and that is why I have confidence in it. There are many many reasons that the Sebenza is a great knife, but it needs to be used and put to what it is meant to be put to in order for the knife to be worth the money in my opinion.

I didn't really feel the hype was warranted at first too. I felt immediately the immense precision with which the knife was made, but at first I didn't really apreciate that or what it means, and I was a little underwhelmed too. Then I took the knife on a hunting trip on a whim (first time I had really used it), and I found out how great of a knife it really is. I have a lot of expensive knives go through my hands, and this one is the only one that I can take with a pack, and only need the takedown tools, a small ceramic fine stone, and a small strop, and be set for a month or more if I need to for using it.

Just my counter to your argument. I think if it doesn't fit you then that's it, and there's really nothing wrong with that, but I would give it more of a chance because I think you can't appreciate a Sebenza truly until you have had it for a while.

It's refreshing reading an intelligent, thoughtful/respectful thread, for a change.

I actually remember, way back when you purchased your very first CRK 25, Coleman, & how stoked you were; you couldn't stop raving to me about it!

I'm very impressed with the level knowledge that you've gained, over this past year plus, & the passionate/eloquent way that you express yourself, discussing knives.

My Sebenza 21 is one of the highest quality knives that I own. The F&F on this beauty, is unsurpassed. CRK aren't cheap, but when you watch the video, & see the time/technology that they invest into their product, IMO, it justifies their cost.

BTW, Coleman- I just purchased a CRK 25 a few days ago; hopefully it will be arriving today. I want to finally see one of these in person, & hopefully get a better appreciation, as to what you've been talking about all this time.

Not meaning to get this thread off topic, but what are the advantages/disadvantages between the CRK 21 & the 25?

 

[Charr]

It's refreshing reading an intelligent, thoughtful/respectful thread, for a change.

I actually remember, way back when you purchased your very first CRK 25, Coleman, & how stoked you were; you couldn't stop raving to me about it!

I'm very impressed with the level knowledge that you've gained, over this past year plus, & the passionate/eloquent way that you express yourself, discussing knives.

My Sebenza 21 is one of the highest quality knives that I own. The F&F on this beauty, is unsurpassed. CRK aren't cheap, but when you watch the video, & see the time/technology that they invest into their product, IMO, it justifies their cost.

BTW, Coleman- I just purchased a CRK 25 a few days ago; hopefully it will be arriving today. I want to finally see one of these in person, & hopefully get a better appreciation, as to what you've been talking about all this time.

Not meaning to get this thread off topic, but what are the advantages/disadvantages between the CRK 21 & the 25?

Thanks, John. That means a lot coming from you. I've come a long way and I still have much further to go!

Great to hear you got a 25! It's a little different than the 21, but I don't dislike any of the differences at all. The 25 is like a combination of the Umnumzaan and the 21, along with a couple of slight improvements that have been made overall.

Pluses for the 25:
The 25 has thicker blade stock than the 21, coming to 4mm, and instead of the deep hollow grind that the 21 has, it has a wide-wheel hollow grind. This means that the grind is still a hollow grind, but has a much shallower radius in the blade, sitting between a hollow and a flat grind. I'll try and include the picture from CRK's website (click to enlarge):


The balde is a mixture of the 21 blade shape and the old bull-nose shape that previous reeve knives have had, like the Classic Sebenza, and it's predecessors (don't remember all the names).

The 25 also has a traditional pivot system, allowing for the pivot to be tightened down to udjust action, instead of the bushing system. At first, I wasn't sure I liked this option, and when breaking in the knife, you may have a tendency to under-tighten the knife because it will still feel a little stiff when at the adjustment level it should be. After use, I was much more comfortable with the traditional pivot than the bushing system. This is mainly because it is one lese part in the knife, and like I said, I have had to take the knfie down in a hunting tent
It also makes the knife less likely to have issues with the action if exposed to water in my experience. The bushin give one more place watter can get in, while the traditional pivot has just one surface (this likely won't ever matter to the majority of owners).

The 25 also has a braoder pivot, and larger-diameter washers, as well as the holes in the washers to lock in grease (though the newer 21's I think have that as well).

The frame also has no hole in it.

Minuses:
The pivot tales a different size tool to adjust and take down than the rest of the knife in the 25, while it does not in the 21.

It is a little (tiny) bit heavier, so if weight is a SUPER issue, something to keep in mind.

No dedicated lanyard hole/pin. The rear standoff is used to mount a lanyard, which would be a neutral comment, except that the lanyard can come into contact with the edge of the blade on accasion, so I don't put one on as it slowly chews up the lanyard.

The 25 currently only comes in either the standard hanles or the Micarta inlays (which are hard to find). I would imagine that we will see more inlays as time goes on, but it leaves much fewer choices for people right now.

The 25 DOES require locktite. The screws are not made to be interference-fit like the 21, so you will need to use loctite to secure the screws unless you are okay with adjusting them frequently. They include a tube of purple loctite in the box for the 25, so you don't have to worry, but if you play on having the knife anywhere around heavier vibrations (for whatever reason), then use blue.

Neutral:
The knife handle has been designed with additional groves for grip. They fit my hands fine, but not perfectly, so I imagine that's a personal thing.

The access to the lockbar is much less significant. It is still not hard by any means to access for me, and it helps the grip of the knife in my opinion, but some people may not like it.

The hanldle has an overall narrower profile. Some poeple will prefer it, some people like the height of the 21. This also includes the handle getting wider at the rear, starting at the second finger choil. The 21 has a much more coffin-styled handle, while the 25 tapers down towards the from until the 2 finger choils, and then thickens out profoundly around the pivot.

*Phew*, Hope I got everything

 

[MANTLE536]

the thing that will always hold me back from buying a sebenza, is that if I buy a $400+ plus knife, I will baby it and never be able to bring myself to use it, and they deserve to be used.. Even if I knew it was indestructible, I just don't have it in me when that kind of money is involved. It's a sickness.

 

[Lost Cosmonaut]

the thing that will always hold me back from buying a sebenza, is that if I buy a $400+ plus knife, I will baby it and never be able to bring myself to use it, and they deserve to be used.. Even if I knew it was indestructible, I just don't have it in me when that kind of money is involved. It's a sickness.

I felt the same way, but I bought 3 of my 4 CRKs lightly used, so they already came with pocketwash on the handles. Made it much easier to just get over it and use them. The stonewash on the blades hides scuffs and scrapes extremely well, and IMO the bead blast on the handles looks better with some scuffs and snail trails. And bringing them back to like-new is as easy as sending them off for a spa day which only costs shipping.

Once I started using my Umnumzaan (my first CRK), I found that it just begged to work like no other knife I own, and you'd never know I use it. I've even used the swedge to scrape paint off of stuff.

 

[Screwdriver]

the thing that will always hold me back from buying a sebenza, is that if I buy a $400+ plus knife, I will baby it and never be able to bring myself to use it, and they deserve to be used.. Even if I knew it was indestructible, I just don't have it in me when that kind of money is involved. It's a sickness.

My wife bought me a 25 that I received yesterday. The money came from a bonus she got for a new client she brought into the company. It cost me zero, so I plan to carry and use it and look forward to when the handle looks like there was a snail orgy. But I totally understand what you are saying.

Plus, CRK has the spa treatment that makes the knife look brand new......

 

[T. Erdelyi]

Spent 25 years on the fence, finally pulled the trigger last year on a small 21 on a trade. I think the hype is spot on, its my favorite knife, never leaves my side. Actually it sits clipped to a piece of paracord around my neck like a neck knife.

There's no fence sitting with a Sebenza, either you love it and think it's worth the money or you don't. There's no convincing. On the plus side if you don't like it you can usually get most of what you paid for it back.

 

[chavez556]

You mean it gives your Asian made Spyderco a run for its money?





Nick

 

[SmedleyButler]

You mean it gives your Asian made Spyderco a run for its money?





Nick

Yeah, that's what I meant. It's not too dissimilar to my Southard. Are you implying that maybe I'm not patriotic? Or maybe that nothing made on the continent of Asia can be excellent? In a thread filled with useful and interesting comments, yours stands out...Not in a good way.

 

[johnnytoxin]

On the innovation topic:

Let's take the umnumzaan for example: what other knife uses the thumb studs for opening the blade plus acts as a blade stop in both the open and closed positions? What other knife (besides the seb 25) uses the detent ball to keep the knife closed, provide a smooth interface for the blade to glide on when opening, and act as a wear resistant lock interface? These innovations are very subtle yet extremely clever and challenging to engineer. The innovation is there, its just understated by design.

 

[NetShocK]

Yeah, that's what I meant. It's not too dissimilar to my Southard. Are you implying that maybe I'm not patriotic? Or maybe that nothing made on the continent of Asia can be excellent? In a thread filled with useful and interesting comments, yours stands out...Not in a good way.

Zing!

 

[xMachiavelli]

I'll give you your estimated value ($220) for it

Seriously lol. Go check out how they make the knife. Look at the tolerances they work to. If you want to a tool to cut, there are many out there that can cut. But if you want a product to appreciate that is on the next level, the Sebenza is it. Get a Gold membership and sell it for $220.00

Please. Lol

 

[GronK]

Either you appreciate the Sebenza and what it offers or you don't. It's like anything else in life. If you don't think a fine Ardbeg or Lagavulin is worth it keep drinking J&B and pocket the difference. If you don't think fine, properly cared for wine is worth it stay with the box and pocket the difference. If you don't think microbrewery suds are worth it stay with BudLight and pocket the difference. If you don't think Opus XX are worth it smoke Backwoods and pocket the difference. We need to be selective in prioritizing where we spend our money.

 

[choombak]

I was exactly in the same brigade as the OP, when I did not have a Sebenza - always thought the Sage 2 is almost equivalent for half the price. And one day a small Sebenza popped up on the exchange for a price that I couldn't resist, so I grabbed it. There are some very fine nuances that you can only appreciate after you have owned, carried and used a Sebenza. Others' have covered many of these, and I know this would be a repeat, but nevertheless...

1. Tolerances - The exacting tolerances the knife is built to are top in the industry. This imparts incredible fit and finish to the knife, and allows repeated takedown without affecting the fit and finish at all. No production knife I know of has these exacting tolerances.
2. Disassembly - The only production company I know that encourages disassembly by actually providing tools. Follows from the point above.
3. Timeless design - 25+ yrs., and the Sebenza hasn't changed much. Get it right the first time.

For me, a Sebenza is a prime example of human achievement in the field of engineering that I can proudly own among other things. There are certain points that just go beyond the material value of the knife. In a similar manner, I love my TSF Beast - it is an inspiration for beating the odds (you should lookup the story on Dr. Jim Allen of Three Sisters Forge).

 

[SadSappySucker]

I picked up my lg plain 21 almost 6 months ago, and I also went through that underwhelmed period. Now I carry it probably 95% of the time. I really liked reading those comments from Sal. He is definitely a guy I trust and respect.
I don't own very many nice things. I buy my clothes from wal mart. I drive a 98 Malibu. I wear the same pair of Converses until there are holes in them, so it wasn't easy for me to pay the price tag of the Sebenza. Now none of this info is new and has probably all been posted in this thread already in some way shape or form, but here's my view on the knife. I do not view it as a status symbol. I bought it because it encompasses everything I wanted in a quality pocket knife, and that after all is one of my passions. It has in my opinion the perfect blade to handle ratio. It isn't too flashy. It locks up solid EVERYTIME. It is incredibly smooth. They encourage taking the knife apart and provide you with the adequate tools to do so. There is no gamble when you buy a CRK. You will get a perfect blade every time. Although I've never used it their warranty is top shelf. If for some ungodly reason I had to sell it(which will never ever happen) I can ship it to them, and they will make it new again for the cost of postage. Then there are the countless subtle differences that you only notice after extended use like the pocket clip, perforated washers, solid hardware(screws), etc... I mean the man even studied which lube worked best and then included it with every knife. You just don't see the attention to detail and passion in most products today. We are in an era of quantity over quality, so it's refreshing to know there are still companies that strive to produce the absolute best product in their industry.
As has been said, I am not implying that this is THE knife for everyone, but it is THE knife for me and countless others. There is a point where it is only natural to be skeptical of high cost "luxury" items, but CRK has far surpassed this point. Lets face it. We(Americans) live in a capitalist society, and eventually products that demand a premium are put to the test. Time weeds out the crap. Here it is over 25 years since the original Sebenza, and they are stronger than ever.
I'm actually almost at the point of selling all my unused knives to fund another CRK. The hard part is going to be whether to get a micarta 25 or an Umnuum. What to do? What to do?
Here she is. My most prized possession.

 

[xICEMANx]

The small sebenza ruined me. I have 3 now, and every time I buy a new folder I compare it to my small sebs, and typically they don't compare. The small sebenza is IMO the perfect EDC knife and worth every penny. I plan on buying many more and having them to pass down to my son. I'm confident they will last

 

[brownshoe]

I was a Sebenza hater. I could not see paying that kind of money for an ugly grey turd that was clunky in the hand.

Then I found the small sebenza. Fits my hand a lot better. However, it's still an ugly grey turd. The finish on the handle sucks because it picks up scratches like a black sweater picks up dandruff. The finish on the blade sucks because it's not shiny. Look at the old Buck Mayo, that's the kind of finish CRK should put on their handles and blades for this price range.

"Don't buy no ugly knife"...certainly not if it's over $200.

Then I found the decorated sebenzas. The pretty handle, the shiny blade. Once again, the large version is ergonomically stupid for my hands...but not the small. I saw and held a decorated one in my city, but the seller would not discount the price and it had some scratches from handling...plus he's a prick. However, when driving across country, I made the stop at the I-70/270 interchange knife shrine, GPKnives. I got a decorated graphic of my choice (ain't a brick and mortar store great?) and have been happy with it since day 1...except for the snail trails on the lock side

So for me, the normal sebenza is a waste of money, but the decorated small sebenza is an excellent knife well worth the cost of buying it new.

Yes I carry it and it shows its use. But the pretty face is still pretty and its been at least 4 years now. I've used flitz polish on the little bit that is not shiny and guess what? It's shiny now too.