Got my first CRK Sebenza yesterday. The Emperor's new knife.

[Ankerson]

Where are these with knives with "just as close tolerances" and how did YOU measure them?

There isn't anyone else out there that's even close to CRK tolerances, and that's very well known across the industry.

 

[The Aflac Duck]

There isn't anyone else out there that's even close to CRK tolerances, and that's very well known across the industry.

I agree.
Only in a CRK have I found a knife with absolutely no blade play (Umnumzaan). So many people say that their new knife has "no blade play" but they probably aren't looking hard enough (especially when I've owned the knife they're talking about).

Also, nothing comes apart/goes back together like a CRK does. Sure, a CRK isn't the "best" knife. Nothing is "the best". However, they make damn good knives, and have a hell of a reputation and warranty. They also stand behind their knives 110% and take pride in what they make, which means a whole lot. CRK level customer service is far and few between in any industry.

 

[SadSappySucker]

Bottom line you can't knock a product that just gets award after award and then say it's over hyped. I mean that's like saying The Beatles are over hyped.
Yeah, I just compared the Sebenza to the Beatles. Sue me.

 

[The Aflac Duck]

Bottom line you can't knock a product that just gets award after award and then say it's over hyped. I mean that's like saying The Beatles are over hyped.
Yeah, I just compared the Sebenza to the Beatles. Sue me.

There's no comparison there...
CRK is still around, the Beatles are not

Wait...do you know something I dont?

 

[Will Batayte]

There is no way for me to measure the tolerences. But for that matter there is no way for you to measure them either. How do we know that they're "the tightest tolerences in the industry" because it says so on the CRK websight? They would literally have to track down the tolerences of every knife ever made and compare them. Do you really think that happened? There are plenty of knives out there that have zero play, great fit and finish, super close tolerences for a lot cheaper. What I'm getting at is there are plenty of knives that may be just as good or better for cheaper. Sure sebenzas are well made but so are most high end ti framelock offerings and not all of em cost $400. It's about what works for you. The sebenza is not everyone's favorite knife. It's funny because whenever someone criticizes it it's like they are a heretic and need to be burned at the stake lol. It's a good knife but it sure as shit ain't the end all be all.

 

[AmericanEDC]

I'll throw down a few thoughts...I've never owned nor have I fondled or even seen a Sebenza in real life. I tried and in fact posted to try and see one in the Orlando area. It was to no avail. Nobody volunteered a meet up.

I've been on their list for many months now for a small 21, micarta, lefty; essentially I have an order in though they didn't take any money or credit card from me.

So my first point: CRK's are one of the very few companies to manufacture a pure lefty knife. Nobody has mentioned this. It's an extremely valid point to many of us. There is a value in that for me (not true for the OP)

Though touched on by a few of the last posts, the ability of this knife to take a spa treatment and the manufacturer's willingness do set it apart and are of value. They factor into my decision to buy one. If I ever chose to sell the knife, there's a reasonable expectation that I could bring it back to 95-100% cosmetically for the sale leading me to my next point:

What semi production knife maintains anywhere near the resale value of a Sebenza 21? If I don't like it, love it, whatever I'm only out the moderate depreciation.

There are Americans being paid to make this thing -- Americans making a living wage I'm to understand. I'm willing to pay extra for that. I'll pay extra when it's ANY product for which I have the choice. Hype or no, I factor into the higher price some of this.

Tolerances = time, time = money. This is very true. You are paying for fit and finish as you would with any product.

There are products that are mass manufactured such as engines where the best performing of batches (randomly so I may add) are pulled from the line and used for higher end models or those destined to race. They literally depend on some luck to result in higher performance specs. From what I can tell CRK isn't depending on luck. Each of their products is manufactured to the same standard. Granted there are 17 or so parts fit together rather than a hundred as in an engine but still.

Equipment: anyone who has owned a company knows how many hidden costs are involved. The public has no clue. I once had to fly an inspector from Canada to Alaska, put him up in a hotel, take him fishing (the bribe for him to even do this) to get an oven re-certified for commercial use in one of my delis because a flippin sticker was rubbed off. You have to sell a crapload of baked items to pay for just the airfare on something like that. I bet CRK is running through some expensive tools grinding titanium scales. What happens when that equipment must be serviced? He probably has full time mechanics on staff. In one of my companies we couldn't justify full time IT so paid about $25,000 per year to make essentially phone calls where the support company remote logged in to our server or PC's and fixed stuff. That $25k was less than any other option I had. The point is...how many Sebenzas could they be selling? Not one of my hundreds of Facebook friends would have a clue what a Sebenza is. He's not selling ketchup. Each of those knives absorbs the cost of so many fixed and variable costs he has. Without his licensing fees he might not even be profitable? I'm not an apologist for CRK. My sense of it is that he occupies a rather unique position where his knives aren't exactly production and aren't exactly custom. His does not seem to be a model that many others survive with. Hinderer comes to mind...but he also licenses and sells beads and pens. Oh, and his knives are quite a bit more expensive (beefier too).

If I ever get mine perhaps I'll be able to chime in with my impressions. I'm carrying a Dragonfly 2 in ZDP-189 today, a $77 dollar FFG that's very nearly a disposable in comparison to the Sebenza. Why? As a scuffed up user I doubt I'd see $35 out of it on the exchange.

Cheers all! I hope I made at least one decent point.

 

[Gaston444]

There isn't anyone else out there that's even close to CRK tolerances, and that's very well known across the industry.

This doesn't apply to their one-piece line at least...

The secondary grinds on my CR Jereboam (bought new with a 2004 birthcard) are a long, long way from being symmetrical. Mind you, that is typical of all sabre-grind fixed blades I have ever checked, except one, and the Jereboam is still generally more crisply ground, and more symmetrical in the clip at least, than many of the best from Seki City.

The exception I mentionned was the SA9 by Vaugh Neeley: It is offered in a very similar price range to what the Reeves was, at the time, and is a similar style of hollow handle fixed blade knife: The Vaugh Neeley absolutely blows away my recent vintage CR in precision of grinding, with perfect secondary grind symmetry and straightness, and amazingly complex hollow/flat plunge/transition radiuses that are a perfect match in compound hollow curves right to left... In fact, it is more precise in grinding than any knife I have ever seen, to the point the finely bead blasted surfaces look much more like very complex moulded plastic, not metal, an amazing feat considering the huge 9.5" stretches of metal compared to a folder...: You would really have to see one in person to believe it... It is unfortunately dull as holy hell besides that (if fixable), but no, there are areas of precision tolerances where CR standards are a long, long way from being the highest...

Even the Senbenza blade has much simpler shapes, with softer transitions, than what the SA9 displays over about twenty times the surface...

Gaston

 

[Quiff]

There isn't anyone else out there that's even close to CRK tolerances, and that's very well known across the industry.

I thought Rockstead has tighter tolerance than CRK, but again, Rockstead cost a lot more than CRK, and whether Rockstead are production knives or semi-customs are up for debate.

 

[bhyde]

There is no way for me to measure the tolerences. But for that matter there is no way for you to measure them either. How do we know that they're "the tightest tolerences in the industry" because it says so on the CRK websight? They would literally have to track down the tolerences of every knife ever made and compare them. Do you really think that happened? There are plenty of knives out there that have zero play, great fit and finish, super close tolerences for a lot cheaper. What I'm getting at is there are plenty of knives that may be just as good or better for cheaper. Sure sebenzas are well made but so are most high end ti framelock offerings and not all of em cost $400. It's about what works for you. The sebenza is not everyone's favorite knife. It's funny because whenever someone criticizes it it's like they are a heretic and need to be burned at the stake lol. It's a good knife but it sure as shit ain't the end all be all.

Actually, I do have the capacity to measure them..and I do have an idea of the tolerances on CRK; I have made many of the parts for CRK and have seen the prints for them. Tell me that plus nothing, minus .0002in on the part isn't a tight tolerance..then tell me how easy that is to accomplish. It's easy for someone to look at an item an assign a perceived cost to it based on size without regard to what it takes to make that item. That being my main point.. Perceived cost.

With all due respect, I didn't comment on your post to criticize you specifically..Please do understand that..My comment was more about the empirical statement of having the same tolerances in a $200.00 knife..Is it possible? Sure..as long as it's not manufactured in the US..
And no need for burning at the stake...You don't like them...that's fine They are not for everyone...But judging by some of your other posts,..you do have some good tastes in knives..I like many of the same

 

[RedLynx]

I agree.
Only in a CRK have I found a knife with absolutely no blade play (Umnumzaan). So many people say that their new knife has "no blade play" but they probably aren't looking hard enough (especially when I've owned the knife they're talking about).

Also, nothing comes apart/goes back together like a CRK does. Sure, a CRK isn't the "best" knife. Nothing is "the best". However, they make damn good knives, and have a hell of a reputation and warranty. They also stand behind their knives 110% and take pride in what they make, which means a whole lot. CRK level customer service is far and few between in any industry.

I'm sure that's true of CRK but most decent production knives I've owned have had no blade play whatsoever, and I check them all quite carefully. There have been a few that needed adjusting out of the box, but not very many in my memory.

 

[bhyde]

I'll throw down a few thoughts...I've never owned nor have I fondled or even seen a Sebenza in real life. I tried and in fact posted to try and see one in the Orlando area. It was to no avail. Nobody volunteered a meet up.

I've been on their list for many months now for a small 21, micarta, lefty; essentially I have an order in though they didn't take any money or credit card from me.

So my first point: CRK's are one of the very few companies to manufacture a pure lefty knife. Nobody has mentioned this. It's an extremely valid point to many of us. There is a value in that for me (not true for the OP)

Though touched on by a few of the last posts, the ability of this knife to take a spa treatment and the manufacturer's willingness do set it apart and are of value. They factor into my decision to buy one. If I ever chose to sell the knife, there's a reasonable expectation that I could bring it back to 95-100% cosmetically for the sale leading me to my next point:

What semi production knife maintains anywhere near the resale value of a Sebenza 21? If I don't like it, love it, whatever I'm only out the moderate depreciation.

There are Americans being paid to make this thing -- Americans making a living wage I'm to understand. I'm willing to pay extra for that. I'll pay extra when it's ANY product for which I have the choice. Hype or no, I factor into the higher price some of this.

Tolerances = time, time = money. This is very true. You are paying for fit and finish as you would with any product.

There are products that are mass manufactured such as engines where the best performing of batches (randomly so I may add) are pulled from the line and used for higher end models or those destined to race. They literally depend on some luck to result in higher performance specs. From what I can tell CRK isn't depending on luck. Each of their products is manufactured to the same standard. Granted there are 17 or so parts fit together rather than a hundred as in an engine but still.

Equipment: anyone who has owned a company knows how many hidden costs are involved. The public has no clue. I once had to fly an inspector from Canada to Alaska, put him up in a hotel, take him fishing (the bribe for him to even do this) to get an oven re-certified for commercial use in one of my delis because a flippin sticker was rubbed off. You have to sell a crapload of baked items to pay for just the airfare on something like that. I bet CRK is running through some expensive tools grinding titanium scales. What happens when that equipment must be serviced? He probably has full time mechanics on staff. In one of my companies we couldn't justify full time IT so paid about $25,000 per year to make essentially phone calls where the support company remote logged in to our server or PC's and fixed stuff. That $25k was less than any other option I had. The point is...how many Sebenzas could they be selling? Not one of my hundreds of Facebook friends would have a clue what a Sebenza is. He's not selling ketchup. Each of those knives absorbs the cost of so many fixed and variable costs he has. Without his licensing fees he might not even be profitable? I'm not an apologist for CRK. My sense of it is that he occupies a rather unique position where his knives aren't exactly production and aren't exactly custom. His does not seem to be a model that many others survive with. Hinderer comes to mind...but he also licenses and sells beads and pens. Oh, and his knives are quite a bit more expensive (beefier too).

If I ever get mine perhaps I'll be able to chime in with my impressions. I'm carrying a Dragonfly 2 in ZDP-189 today, a $77 dollar FFG that's very nearly a disposable in comparison to the Sebenza. Why? As a scuffed up user I doubt I'd see $35 out of it on the exchange.

Cheers all! I hope I made at least one decent point.

This man gets it! :thumbup:

 

[Ankerson]

Tell me that plus nothing, minus .0002in on the part isn't a tight tolerance..then tell me how easy that is to accomplish. It's easy for someone to look at an item an assign a perceived cost to it based on size without regard to what it takes to make that item. That being my main point.. Perceived cost.

That's what I was getting at and that is extremely tight. :thumbup:

Actually had that conversation the other day and it was .0005in and under so I am not surprised by your .0002in number.

Don't think people really understand how tight that really is.

 

[bhyde]

That's what I was getting at and that is extremely tight. :thumbup:

Actually had that conversation the other day and it was .0005in and under so I am not surprised by your .0002in number.

Don't think people really understand how tight that really is.

I figured as much

The mating part to the one I mentioned was just as tight of a tolerance from what I can remember..If i'm not mistaken..The fit together was forced to have .0002 clearance almost regardless of dimension as long as the tolerance was held on both parts..It's been a long time though. Indicating micrometers were a must to measure this in case anyone is wondering...Also, not a cheap tool..I certainly have a nice set of inspection tools I purchased on my own..Mics, calipers, indicators..Whoa! the knives I could have purchased with that money!

 

[Scurvy092]

That's what I was getting at and that is extremely tight. :thumbup:

Actually had that conversation the other day and it was .0005in and under so I am not surprised by your .0002in number.

Don't think people really understand how tight that really is.

Just so people understand this a little better.

The only person I know of that measures in the ten-thousandths of an inch regularly is RJ Martin. His stuff is surface ground to .0003 inches. He makes each piece on his CNC one at a time and changes tools the minute they go out of spec. Contrast that to someone like the Grimsmos who make their stuff in batches on the CNC and run their tools until they break usually. That's a lot of extra time and a lot of tooling cost for the extra little bit of consistency. Hence RJ's knives are almost twice the price of the a Norseman. Just a glimpse as the cost of that little extra bit of precision.

Is someone going to be able to physically see the difference between .001 and .0005? Probably not. Does that mean that extra amount of precision isn't a lot more expensive? Nope. Does it have benefits? Yes, as seen with the ease of assembly/disassembly.

 

[KELAMA]

Thanks, John. That means a lot coming from you. I've come a long way and I still have much further to go!

Great to hear you got a 25! It's a little different than the 21, but I don't dislike any of the differences at all. The 25 is like a combination of the Umnumzaan and the 21, along with a couple of slight improvements that have been made overall.

Pluses for the 25:
The 25 has thicker blade stock than the 21, coming to 4mm, and instead of the deep hollow grind that the 21 has, it has a wide-wheel hollow grind. This means that the grind is still a hollow grind, but has a much shallower radius in the blade, sitting between a hollow and a flat grind. I'll try and include the picture from CRK's website (click to enlarge):
View attachment 514192

The balde is a mixture of the 21 blade shape and the old bull-nose shape that previous reeve knives have had, like the Classic Sebenza, and it's predecessors (don't remember all the names).

The 25 also has a traditional pivot system, allowing for the pivot to be tightened down to udjust action, instead of the bushing system. At first, I wasn't sure I liked this option, and when breaking in the knife, you may have a tendency to under-tighten the knife because it will still feel a little stiff when at the adjustment level it should be. After use, I was much more comfortable with the traditional pivot than the bushing system. This is mainly because it is one lese part in the knife, and like I said, I have had to take the knfie down in a hunting tent
It also makes the knife less likely to have issues with the action if exposed to water in my experience. The bushin give one more place watter can get in, while the traditional pivot has just one surface (this likely won't ever matter to the majority of owners).

The 25 also has a braoder pivot, and larger-diameter washers, as well as the holes in the washers to lock in grease (though the newer 21's I think have that as well).

The frame also has no hole in it.

Minuses:
The pivot tales a different size tool to adjust and take down than the rest of the knife in the 25, while it does not in the 21.

It is a little (tiny) bit heavier, so if weight is a SUPER issue, something to keep in mind.

No dedicated lanyard hole/pin. The rear standoff is used to mount a lanyard, which would be a neutral comment, except that the lanyard can come into contact with the edge of the blade on accasion, so I don't put one on as it slowly chews up the lanyard.

The 25 currently only comes in either the standard hanles or the Micarta inlays (which are hard to find). I would imagine that we will see more inlays as time goes on, but it leaves much fewer choices for people right now.

The 25 DOES require locktite. The screws are not made to be interference-fit like the 21, so you will need to use loctite to secure the screws unless you are okay with adjusting them frequently. They include a tube of purple loctite in the box for the 25, so you don't have to worry, but if you play on having the knife anywhere around heavier vibrations (for whatever reason), then use blue.

Neutral:
The knife handle has been designed with additional groves for grip. They fit my hands fine, but not perfectly, so I imagine that's a personal thing.

The access to the lockbar is much less significant. It is still not hard by any means to access for me, and it helps the grip of the knife in my opinion, but some people may not like it.

The hanldle has an overall narrower profile. Some poeple will prefer it, some people like the height of the 21. This also includes the handle getting wider at the rear, starting at the second finger choil. The 21 has a much more coffin-styled handle, while the 25 tapers down towards the from until the 2 finger choils, and then thickens out profoundly around the pivot.

*Phew*, Hope I got everything

Hey Coleman,

Out of curiosity, I just came back on here to read up on the latest, Sebenza discussion...which appears to be still going strong.

Once again, thank you very much, for sharing your keen insight on these 2 model's- I sincerely appreciate it! BTW- I did receive my CRK 25 last week; it's as high quality as any knife I own. :thumbup:

FWIW: I highly recommend, CRK knives! :thumbup: :thumbup:

 

[Ankerson]

I figured as much

The mating part to the one I mentioned was just as tight of a tolerance from what I can remember..If i'm not mistaken..The fit together was forced to have .0002 clearance almost regardless of dimension as long as the tolerance was held on both parts..It's been a long time though. Indicating micrometers were a must to measure this in case anyone is wondering...Also, not a cheap tool..I certainly have a nice set of inspection tools I purchased on my own..Mics, calipers, indicators..Whoa! the knives I could have purchased with that money!

I bet you could have got a bunch of high end ones at that.

It can't be fun to work with those types of tolerance levels.

Just so people understand this a little better.

The only person I know of that measures in the ten-thousandths of an inch regularly is RJ Martin. His stuff is surface ground to .0003 inches. He makes each piece on his CNC one at a time and changes tools the minute they go out of spec. Contrast that to someone like the Grimsmos who make their stuff in batches on the CNC and run their tools until they break usually. That's a lot of extra time and a lot of tooling cost for the extra little bit of consistency. Hence RJ's knives are almost twice the price of the a Norseman. Just a glimpse as the cost of that little extra bit of precision.

Is someone going to be able to physically see the difference between .001 and .0005? Probably not. Does that mean that extra amount of precision isn't a lot more expensive? Nope. Does it have benefits? Yes, as seen with the ease of assembly/disassembly.

Take into in count MOST production blades the grind of the blade is + or - .003in from what I have seen over the years.

Add another zero in front of that.

Not sure what the specs on the scales usually are, but they aren't in the ten-thousands of an inch that for sure.

They would have to have the equipment to work in those tolerance ranges in the 1st place and the tools to make sure they are correct.

NONE of that stuff is exactly cheap.

 

[Elijahtc]

you should check out his SHOP TOUR video on KNIFEHQ channel on youtube. It's a two part video and once you see how much goes into making a Sebenza or ANY of his products, you start to see why it costs so much.

I just received a Small Sebenza 21 with double thumb stud and absolutely love it. I didn't have super high "mind blowing" expectations as far as what the knife should do. I went into buying the knife, just knowing what all went into producing such a quality knife and the fact that it's 100% American made.

I do appreciate the refreshing honesty and the fact that someone else is noticing that there is a certain level of "status symbol" hype that is associated with a lot of the products out there these days.

 

[bhyde]

I bet you could have got a bunch of high end ones at that.

It can't be fun to work with those types of tolerance levels.

Yes,...Just a few high end knives, but it was the cost of my job..As someone who mentored me many years ago said; "The more you learn, the more you earn and your tools are a part of that..buy them"

Once the CNC was dialed in, it wasn't too much of an issue as long as the temperature of the machine remained constant and the tool stayed sharp..but as was previously stated by someone else, the tool takes a dump, then it's time to change it..Then it takes a bit to get it offset back in. Up and down, up and down and a fair amount of scrap parts that went to the dumpster.

Take into in count MOST production blades the grind of the blade is + or - .003in from what I have seen over the years.

Add another zero in front of that.

Not sure what the specs on the scales usually are, but they aren't in the ten-thousands of an inch that for sure.

They would have to have the equipment to work in those tolerance ranges in the 1st place and the tools to make sure they are correct.

NONE of that stuff is exactly cheap.

Nothing is cheap to have or maintain as far as machinery goes. The machine I have at work has gone through 2 spindles and 3 spindle motors in the last 4 years.. Figure those spindle motors are right around $5-6k ea to replace and the spindle itself is not far from that either. By the way, the machine I run at work..it's not even on the same level as what CRK has, so figure more for those..but they probably don't go out as much. My machine=yugo, CRK machine= Mercedes or something to that effect.

 

[Ankerson]

Yes,...Just a few high end knives, but it was the cost of my job..As someone who mentored me many years ago said; "The more you learn, the more you earn and your tools are a part of that..buy them"

Once the CNC was dialed in, it wasn't too much of an issue as long as the temperature of the machine remained constant and the tool stayed sharp..but as was previously stated by someone else, the tool takes a dump, then it's time to change it..Then it takes a bit to get it offset back in. Up and down, up and down and a fair amount of scrap parts that went to the dumpster.




Nothing is cheap to have or maintain as far as machinery goes. The machine I have at work has gone through 2 spindles and 3 spindle motors in the last 4 years.. Figure those spindle motors are right around $5-6k ea to replace and the spindle itself is not far from that either. By the way, the machine I run at work..it's not even on the same level as what CRK has, so figure more for those..but they probably don't go out as much. My machine=yugo, CRK machine= Mercedes or something to that effect.

I can imagine those machines are expensive to maintain as you said.

With the CRK Sebenza and Umnumzaan one can take all of the screws out including the pivot screw and the knife won't fall apart and from what I have experienced they still didn't have any blade play.

 

[RedLynx]

I can imagine those machines are expensive to maintain as you said.

With the CRK Sebenza and Umnumzaan one can take all of the screws out including the pivot screw and the knife won't fall apart and from what I have experienced they still didn't have any blade play.

While that doesn't make me want to rush out to buy a Sebenza, that is a darn impressive feat of engineering. :thumbup: