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Great steel for slicing and not fouling....
- Thread starter Edged_Obsession
- Start date
I think sharpening technique will be one of the most important things to learn here. Regardless of steel type.
A thinned out secondary bevel with a steep micro bevel should keep the edge from rolling/chipping too badly while giving pretty good slicing performance.
Or a good convex grind would do the trick.
A little terminology. The Primary bevel is the main grind that gives the blade its overall shape. The Secondary bevel is the grind that usually forms the edge of the knife. A micro bevel is applied in the finishing stages of sharpening, and is steeper than the secondary bevel. The advantage of using a micro bevel is pretty well exactly what Edged_Obsession is looking for, getting a more durable edge while maintaining good cutting performance.
You can also apply a back bevel on your secondary bevel, which smooths the transition between the primary and secondary bevels.
I would actually recommend using all of the bevel types mentioned.
For good slicing ability without chipping or rolling on bone, I'd put a ten degree per side back bevel on the secondary bevel, leaving enough edge at the stock angle to still hold up on contact with a hard surface. But that's just me. To find the proper angles you pretty well just have to play with it.
First see how you like the stock edge, if it doesn't slice as well as you'd like, thin it out a little (back bevel). If it chips, put a micro bevel on it. Eventually you'll find your ideal balance of toughness and cutting ability.
The first thing I would recommend picking up after the knife is a good 8"x2" coarse grit diamond hone. It takes a lot less time to shape hardened steel with one of those compared to normal sharpening stones.
(and before going at it with your nice knife, do some practice runs on the crappy kitchen knives)
As for the knife itself, right now either Fehrman or Bark River knives would be my pick. Fehrman does a super heat treat with 3V and keeps edge geometry thin enough to cut well, and Bark River is just about the only manufacturer to use a full convex grind.
I find that a convex grind can be maintained using bench stones just as well as a regular V grind. Just make sure to work on the back bevel every time you sharpen, the motion of a human hand is sloppy enough that I never get flat bevels anyway.
A thinned out secondary bevel with a steep micro bevel should keep the edge from rolling/chipping too badly while giving pretty good slicing performance.
Or a good convex grind would do the trick.
A little terminology. The Primary bevel is the main grind that gives the blade its overall shape. The Secondary bevel is the grind that usually forms the edge of the knife. A micro bevel is applied in the finishing stages of sharpening, and is steeper than the secondary bevel. The advantage of using a micro bevel is pretty well exactly what Edged_Obsession is looking for, getting a more durable edge while maintaining good cutting performance.
You can also apply a back bevel on your secondary bevel, which smooths the transition between the primary and secondary bevels.
I would actually recommend using all of the bevel types mentioned.
For good slicing ability without chipping or rolling on bone, I'd put a ten degree per side back bevel on the secondary bevel, leaving enough edge at the stock angle to still hold up on contact with a hard surface. But that's just me. To find the proper angles you pretty well just have to play with it.
First see how you like the stock edge, if it doesn't slice as well as you'd like, thin it out a little (back bevel). If it chips, put a micro bevel on it. Eventually you'll find your ideal balance of toughness and cutting ability.
The first thing I would recommend picking up after the knife is a good 8"x2" coarse grit diamond hone. It takes a lot less time to shape hardened steel with one of those compared to normal sharpening stones.
(and before going at it with your nice knife, do some practice runs on the crappy kitchen knives)
As for the knife itself, right now either Fehrman or Bark River knives would be my pick. Fehrman does a super heat treat with 3V and keeps edge geometry thin enough to cut well, and Bark River is just about the only manufacturer to use a full convex grind.
I find that a convex grind can be maintained using bench stones just as well as a regular V grind. Just make sure to work on the back bevel every time you sharpen, the motion of a human hand is sloppy enough that I never get flat bevels anyway.
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2006
- Messages
- 4,091
I've been reliably taking two or more deer a year for over 20 years now, and the vast majority of them I have butchered myself. The only time I take one to a commercial processor is if I am giving the meat to someone like my MIL.
I own two giant bags of knives made from all sorts of different steels, everything from ZDP-189, S90V and even Infi. What do I use to process deer? Well, after years of experimentation I have come to the conclusion that you can do a pretty good job with almost anything. For the initial field dressing the chances are good I will be doing it either with a Beretta Loveless dropped point hunter (AUS8), a homemade copy of the Loveless (M2), a reprofiled Mora Craftsman (Sandvik 12C27) or an old Schrade folder (1095). I'm hoping to try my new D2 Dozier out this year. This includes slicing open the ribcage, gutting, skinning, and maybe cutting the rear leg joints. Any bone cutting is done with an old bone saw that belonged to my grandfather.
After the carcass has hung and aged, I bone it out for the freezer. After years of experimentation my butchering knives setup has pretty well standardized on an Old Hickory boning knife (1095), a fillet knife from either Case (440A) or Frosts (12C27) and occasionally a Mora Clipper (12C27) for working around the ribs/backstrap. I have put a bunch of large animals into a small space using these tools.
Did you catch the blade steel on that Case fillet knife? That's right--440A--one of the most reviled blade steels in the history of BladeForums. Only 'surgical stainless' and 420HC have been more abused by the steel junkies on this forum. And how about that Beretta--AUS8? What a crappy steel that is! Why, I can only field dress an entire season limit with it before it needs a few swipes on the Sharpmaker.
How can something as universally despised as 440A and AUS8 possibly be useful for such a demanding task? Well, the AUS8 in question is actually ground and heat treated by Moki to a very high standard. The Beretta AUS8 knives take that steel to its highest possible level of performance. As for the Case fillet knife, the steel is almost irrelevant. I use a fillet knife for butchering because the geometry and flexibility of the blade allow me to easily separate the large muscle groups on the hams, and to separate them from the bone. Because the edge barely ever touches the bone (even lightly) a crap steel is good enough. In this case edge geometry and blade profile is VASTLY more important than the steel. In the last few years the Frosts has pretty well taken the place of that old Case knife because the 12C27 does seem to be a better edge holder and will last through an entire animal before it needs to see the ceramic rod.
So my point is twofold:
1) The folks who posted about edge geometry were 100% correct. It is the shape of the blade that determines its cutting ability. The steel only dictates how keen an angle the knife can be profiled to hold without taking damage.
2) Even crap steels can be taken to relatively thin edge profiles and still work OK. Neither of my low-cost Fillet knives show any edge damage after years of use. Of course, I've never clonked them against a femur with a hard swing either.
After typing all this I just realized I may have completely misread the intent of your original post. I assumed you were asking about cutting flesh because you were interested in knives for game/butchering. You might have been asking because you saw a ninja or zombie movie and wanted a knife to lop off heads and arms. If that's the case I'm afraid I can't help you with that---but a 440A Case fillet knife would probably not be the best choice
I own two giant bags of knives made from all sorts of different steels, everything from ZDP-189, S90V and even Infi. What do I use to process deer? Well, after years of experimentation I have come to the conclusion that you can do a pretty good job with almost anything. For the initial field dressing the chances are good I will be doing it either with a Beretta Loveless dropped point hunter (AUS8), a homemade copy of the Loveless (M2), a reprofiled Mora Craftsman (Sandvik 12C27) or an old Schrade folder (1095). I'm hoping to try my new D2 Dozier out this year. This includes slicing open the ribcage, gutting, skinning, and maybe cutting the rear leg joints. Any bone cutting is done with an old bone saw that belonged to my grandfather.
After the carcass has hung and aged, I bone it out for the freezer. After years of experimentation my butchering knives setup has pretty well standardized on an Old Hickory boning knife (1095), a fillet knife from either Case (440A) or Frosts (12C27) and occasionally a Mora Clipper (12C27) for working around the ribs/backstrap. I have put a bunch of large animals into a small space using these tools.
Did you catch the blade steel on that Case fillet knife? That's right--440A--one of the most reviled blade steels in the history of BladeForums. Only 'surgical stainless' and 420HC have been more abused by the steel junkies on this forum. And how about that Beretta--AUS8? What a crappy steel that is! Why, I can only field dress an entire season limit with it before it needs a few swipes on the Sharpmaker.
How can something as universally despised as 440A and AUS8 possibly be useful for such a demanding task? Well, the AUS8 in question is actually ground and heat treated by Moki to a very high standard. The Beretta AUS8 knives take that steel to its highest possible level of performance. As for the Case fillet knife, the steel is almost irrelevant. I use a fillet knife for butchering because the geometry and flexibility of the blade allow me to easily separate the large muscle groups on the hams, and to separate them from the bone. Because the edge barely ever touches the bone (even lightly) a crap steel is good enough. In this case edge geometry and blade profile is VASTLY more important than the steel. In the last few years the Frosts has pretty well taken the place of that old Case knife because the 12C27 does seem to be a better edge holder and will last through an entire animal before it needs to see the ceramic rod.
So my point is twofold:
1) The folks who posted about edge geometry were 100% correct. It is the shape of the blade that determines its cutting ability. The steel only dictates how keen an angle the knife can be profiled to hold without taking damage.
2) Even crap steels can be taken to relatively thin edge profiles and still work OK. Neither of my low-cost Fillet knives show any edge damage after years of use. Of course, I've never clonked them against a femur with a hard swing either.
After typing all this I just realized I may have completely misread the intent of your original post. I assumed you were asking about cutting flesh because you were interested in knives for game/butchering. You might have been asking because you saw a ninja or zombie movie and wanted a knife to lop off heads and arms. If that's the case I'm afraid I can't help you with that---but a 440A Case fillet knife would probably not be the best choice
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2009
- Messages
- 150
Fighting would be most accurate, but if you can mix the two and take some outta both worlds, that'd work for me too! :thumbup:
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2005
- Messages
- 549
Look at the Knives of Alaska models in D2. Absolutely the best value in knives and steel for the money I've found. I use the Yukon, Muskrat and Jaeger for my hunting pack and clear shooting lanes with the Bushmaster. Really nice well made knives.
For upscale knives in 3V I'd +1 the Fehrman knives. The best of the best. I piggy back the PeaceMaker on the ShadowScout for Elk hunting and use the Last Chance in camp and for general hiking and field/outdoors tasks. Can you say "Sharp", 3V is capable of maintaining a blade sharpness of M2 steel and the toughness of S7. You will go thru many game animals before needing any significant sharpening mainatenance (I always give mine a very, very light 3-5 licks on a ceramic just to keep 'em screamin' sharp).
I'd stop right there if I were you pardner and not look at anything else and that's comin from someone who has used 'em.
Good luck!
Be safe.
NJ
For upscale knives in 3V I'd +1 the Fehrman knives. The best of the best. I piggy back the PeaceMaker on the ShadowScout for Elk hunting and use the Last Chance in camp and for general hiking and field/outdoors tasks. Can you say "Sharp", 3V is capable of maintaining a blade sharpness of M2 steel and the toughness of S7. You will go thru many game animals before needing any significant sharpening mainatenance (I always give mine a very, very light 3-5 licks on a ceramic just to keep 'em screamin' sharp).
I'd stop right there if I were you pardner and not look at anything else and that's comin from someone who has used 'em.
Good luck!
Be safe.
NJ
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2007
- Messages
- 1,531
Well then start with the real deal, a Randall Model 1, it's had lot's of fighting experience back through WWII. Bones shouldn't bother it. I read here it took on a cinder blocks and stuff and was able to hang in with a Busse.
The Practical Tactical Forum is where you'll find the knife fighting experts so searching some threads there will probably reward you with some good information.
or a Randall 16
or maybe a Dozier fighter
Some info on Randall fighting knives...
http://www.randallcollector.com/Autumn2004.html
Oh yeah, I think the steel on a carbon Randall is A2 but best to check the Randall site to make sure.
(Photos from AG Russell, gripsandknives.com, steeladdictionknives)
- Joined
- May 26, 2008
- Messages
- 5,605
Well then start with the real deal, a Randall Model 1, it's had lot's of fighting experience back through WWII. Bones shouldn't bother it. I read here it took on a cinder blocks and stuff and was able to hang in with a Busse.
The Practical Tactical Forum is where you'll find the knife fighting experts so searching some threads there will probably reward you with some good information.
or a Randall 16
or maybe a Dozier fighter
Some info on Randall fighting knives...
http://www.randallcollector.com/Autumn2004.html
Oh yeah, I think the steel on a carbon Randall is A2 but best to check the Randall site to make sure.
(Photos from AG Russell, gripsandknives.com, steeladdictionknives)
01 I believe.
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2006
- Messages
- 5,613
Mr. Elkins makes a very good point:
Aus8 and Aus6 have been treated like a low tier, almost disposable steel by some makers. In the hands of great knifemakers like Moki it's still considered a premium steel and comes in some very, very well made, expensive knives. The steels performance is worlds apart IMO.
Al Mar uses Seki made AUS 8 knives. To compare the steel in , say a CKRT AUS8 or 6 knife would show you the difference quickly.
I've seen 12c27 done the same way. In cheap junk knives, and expensive customs run hard and taking advantage of the clean steel with small carbides.
I guess 440A can be put in that category too. I used to scoff at it, looking down my nose until my first Kershaw in 440A.
Aus8 and Aus6 have been treated like a low tier, almost disposable steel by some makers. In the hands of great knifemakers like Moki it's still considered a premium steel and comes in some very, very well made, expensive knives. The steels performance is worlds apart IMO.
Al Mar uses Seki made AUS 8 knives. To compare the steel in , say a CKRT AUS8 or 6 knife would show you the difference quickly.
I've seen 12c27 done the same way. In cheap junk knives, and expensive customs run hard and taking advantage of the clean steel with small carbides.
I guess 440A can be put in that category too. I used to scoff at it, looking down my nose until my first Kershaw in 440A.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2009
- Messages
- 32
personaly i would prefer l-6 or 5160 with a good ht over d2 simply because you will eventually have to sharpen it d2 is a mother bear to sharpen with a small stone in the woods, and with most of the knives that i have made for this perpose have seen from 3 to 5 deer feild dressed and cut up for freezer storage before needing more than a quick slap on the leather.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2009
- Messages
- 32
man am i a slow typist lots of new info posted so my 2 cents don't count much