GSO 5.1 preorder opening soon!

[cold one]

That is in no way the right thing to do.
I gave them money more than one year ago knowing that the GSO 8 would probably be the last one made out of the initial batches... I'm ok with that: I knew the total number of runs that I had to wait for.
What is not right is extending the list in front of knives that have already been paid for.
I paid for a knife, I'm not a generous investor in their company.

How would you react if you bought a car but the salesman filled other peoples order before yours because it makes more profit for him.

I'm new to Survive! knives but have just put in a pre-order for a GSO-10 as I have been wanting a large knife in 3V and the price and quality is what lead me to choose the GSO-10. I admit that putting others knives ahead doesn't seem right as smaller knives tend to be more popular than larger ones so you could always be putting them ahead.
I have 2 GSO-6s on order and they should stay on schedule, I will be watching to see how the 5.1 vs 8/10 pans out in production down the road.

 

[mlmcasual]

in the beginning during pre orders, the build order (productions schedule) is not "official" given until after the pre ordering has closed.. So up to that point it's fair for SK to juggle around build order priorities..
If there is another small batch build that can run concurrently without really delaying the production schedule, that's fine.

Now, if you were to see other new orders/builds that were taken way after established production orders and stuck IN front of those production orders that DID delay those orders. yes, that unequivocally would be downright wrong and even unethical. That said, I have NOT seen any indication that is what SK has said they have done or plan to do. And SK is a known/established straight shooter fair outfit so I would give SK the benefit of doubt on this subject and not jump to conclusions. SK bends over backwards and built it's model on fairness IMO.

 

[Fancier]

I am completely okay with Survive rearranging the production order so that they cover gaps in the production schedule.
All the shop time needs to be optimized so that none is wasted. Doing it any other way increases costs, which will eventually make our knives more expensive.
I'm also completely okay with Survive making business decisions about how many orders need to be in place before they start investing in a production run.
Each of us has paid for a few knives. Survive has to pay for all of them, including the ones that nobody ordered.

 

[Hard Knocks]

edit.....Last two posters said it better than I tried to.......

 

[cold one]

in the beginning during pre orders, the build order (productions schedule) is not "official" given until after the pre ordering has closed.. So up to that point it's fair for SK to juggle around build order priorities..
If there is another small batch build that can run concurrently without really delaying the production schedule, that's fine.

Now, if you were to see other new orders/builds that were taken way after established production orders and stuck IN front of those production orders that DID delay those orders. yes, that unequivocally would be downright wrong and even unethical. That said, I have NOT seen any indication that is what SK has said they have done or plan to do. And SK is a known/established straight shooter fair outfit so I would give SK the benefit of doubt on this subject and not jump to conclusions. SK bends over backwards and built it's model on fairness IMO.

Ok, my concern the "small batch" already has more knives pre-ordered then the larger knives, so if the 4.1 or 4.5 or etc, are more popular then the larger knives too, then how many times can build priorities be juggled?

 

[Fancier]

Ok, my concern the "small batch" already has more knives pre-ordered then the larger knives, so if the 4.1 or 4.5 or etc, are more popular then the larger knives too, then how many times can build priorities be juggled?

Survive's main fault to date has been an excess of optimism. They've been very accommodating and straight forward in their customer interactions.
That is not to say that they've hit their own production goals, but the real problem there was, as I said, an excess of optimism.
For the past year they've set their production schedule based largely on model popularity, and as different models have become more or less popular they've shifted the schedule.
That produced the most requested knives first, in theory maximizing customer satisfaction.
Learning from their lesson, if I was to do it I'd produce the knives by increasing order of size.
I think I'd stand a better chance of keeping up with demand that way.
I am absolutely convinced that I will get all my knives in perfect condition and as rapidly as possible within the context of reasonable business practices.
I know that they are worth more to me than I have paid for them.

 

[Revolverrodger]

Ok, my concern the "small batch" already has more knives pre-ordered then the larger knives, so if the 4.1 or 4.5 or etc, are more popular then the larger knives too, then how many times can build priorities be juggled?

Changing the rules after people have payed good money isn't exactly fair.
If I had known in advance that the knife I order was going to be bumped by other later models maybe I wouldn't have pre ordered... Maybe I would have put the money in a miller bros knife
And let's remember that this pre order money helped survive to get new tools...

All this doesn't look kosher to me

 

[Fancier]

That said, I wouldn't complain if they built my knives first.
Which, by the way, they haven't. In fact I don't have any of the new production knives yet.

 

[dogboye]

I think what it all comes down to is whether they have gotten the minimum number of orders required to support a production run. If they haven't, then I don't see they have much choice but to delay production of that knife. Is it more ethical for them to take money from orders for 5.1's and apply it to buying the minimum order of 8's or 10's, knowing they don't have the orders for what I would assume is a non-trivial number of 8's or 10's? Then what do they use to purchase the number of 5.1's they took money from to pay for said 8's/10's? Because now they don't have the money to order sufficient 5.1's to supply the 5.1's already ordered.

ETA: Perhaps they could solicit purchases from one of the on-line retailers that carry stock to put in orders to make up the deficit to the minimum number. But we don't know that they haven't already tried that.

ETA, again: 'Course I've got one each of a significant number of models ordered, except the BIG choppers, so just about anything they start producing and sending out will result in me getting a knife. So not a lot of heartache for me any way you cut it (no pun intended).

 

[mlmcasual]

I think what it all comes down to is whether they have gotten the minimum number of orders required to support a production run. If they haven't, then I don't see they have much choice but to delay production of that knife. Is it more ethical for them to take money from orders for 5.1's and apply it to buying the minimum order of 8's or 10's, knowing they don't have the orders for what I would assume is a non-trivial number of 8's or 10's? Then what do they use to purchase the number of 5.1's they took money from to pay for said 8's/10's? Because now they don't have the money to order sufficient 5.1's to supply the 5.1's already ordered.

ETA: Perhaps they could solicit purchases from one of the on-line retailers that carry stock to put in orders to make up the deficit to the minimum number. But we don't know that they haven't already tried that.

ETA, again: 'Course I've got one each of a significant number of models ordered, except the BIG choppers, so just about anything they start producing and sending out will result in me getting a knife. So not a lot of heartache for me any way you cut it (no pun intended).

That gets back to my point.. that my understanding is things can get shuffled around UNTIL pre ordering closes.. it's only once pre ordering closes that THEN they have and exact number. After pre odering is closed, there is no robing peter to pay Paul because obviously the money is 100% up front. that certainly has been my experience.. untill pre ordering is closed, you don't really don't know WHAT order you are in..

 

[SURVIVE! Ellie]

Sounds like, since orders are not up to where they want them to start production of the larger knives (GSO 10 or 8), that they are trying to decide on whether to do a small run of the large knives at little profit or put them on hold to run some 5.1s first.

That is in no way the right thing to do.
I gave them money more than one year ago knowing that the GSO 8 would probably be the last one made out of the initial batches... I'm ok with that: I knew the total number of runs that I had to wait for.
What is not right is extending the list in front of knives that have already been paid for.
I paid for a knife, I'm not a generous investor in their company.

How would you react if you bought a car but the salesman filled other peoples order before yours because it makes more profit for him.

Doing a small run of the large knives is not an option. If we could do a small run of those they would be getting made as soon as possible, no questions asked. We can’t because there are minimum order requirements for grinding, which means that we absolutely have to do a run of a certain size. Right now, the number of preorders for the GSO-10 and GSO-8 are not even close to that required minimum run size. That means we need to figure out how to pay for those production runs. On top of that, they take longer so there are higher fixed costs that need to be considered while they are in production. We are already taking on the GSO-12 production under similar circumstances. Trying to do all 3 in such a short period of time, while there is little to no income is… Well, it really doesn’t make sense. At best that would slow our production capabilities dramatically.

The big knives are not as popular, which makes these matters worse because we don’t know when we will get paid back for doing those production runs. If it takes 6 months to make them and another 6-9 to sell them, we are out that investment for a year. Granted, we don’t need to sell 100% of them to break-even but that is why I mentioned our margins before. With scrap and factory 2nds, these are not exactly money makers. That is something that we chose and are entirely ok with because a higher price would mean that even fewer people could afford to make that jump into the big knife world. However, it does pose certain challenges, which is what you all are now seeing.

The only difference between last week and right now is that these future issues are now public, instead of just keeping me up at night. I can’t say exactly what plan of action we will take right now because we haven’t figured out the details yet. We have been waiting until we have a few more runs completed so we can get a better grasp of the overall picture. With that information we will be better able to weigh out our options. In the end, we will choose the course of action that will guarantee a production pace that allows us to get everyone’s orders out as quickly as possible. Meanwhile, please keep in mind that it is entirely possible that running the GSO-5.1s first would actually help to ensure that the GSO-8 production is completed sooner than if the GSO-5.1s were run after.

 

[SURVIVE! Ellie]

ETA: Perhaps they could solicit purchases from one of the on-line retailers that carry stock to put in orders to make up the deficit to the minimum number. But we don't know that they haven't already tried that.

This would be using a middle man, which means we either make little to nothing on those blades or we raise prices. We tried dealers, and it didn't work for us.

 

[Casinostocks]

Ellie, I truly commend you for disclosing a lot of information (perhaps too much) regarding the state of SURVIVE!'s production affairs so to speak. Whether people are completely sympathetic toward your cause, unsympathetic or anywhere in between; those which have already been stated by you are the facts which you are currently dealing with!

Having been on this sub forum for about a month or so, I now get it. If I want a Survive! knife from the source, I will either have to order, pay in advance and wait for it full well knowing in advance that the schedule may get juggled around and there is really no such thing as sequential priority specially with the larger specimen of knives which you have designed. The other way of course is to participate in on the Mondays Sale, but if there is no current production of the larger blades because of not having reached the necessary quota; there will not be a chance of getting any 2nds of those whether on Mondays or any other days, till those preorders reach the magic number!

To the Survive! patrons and brethren, we, you, us are investing in this company's future. They have tried many different ways be it outside investor(s), banks, SBA loans, third party dealers; but none have worked out for them. In the meantime, they will need to keep their lights so with that said, if anyone is concerned about their prepayment and the wait period for getting their orders fulfilled, perhaps come up with a thread idea (maybe a very bad idea) on here requesting to opt out of your order and give someone else a chance to step in and take over from you so that Survive! does not have to deal with the unnecessary burden since it seems that it is Ellie who handles everything regarding order fulfillment and shipping. Obviously she reads and participates on this sub forum so maybe those of us who wish to see Survive! succeed and get over periodical cash crunch, can be of some small help without exacerbating an already frustrating situation.

 

[cold one]

I think the sticking point is having spent the money on a knife that is currently in a holding pattern due to lack of orders and have models come back around for production a second time while my order and money sit waiting. I knew the GSO-10 was down the list but was not aware that it could keep getting rotated to the bottom due to not enough orders, just figured with time it's turn would come around but it looks like with pre-order numbers being not even close to enough for a run, then it's turn might never come.

 

[Casinostocks]

I hear you Cold One and in fact, I got cold feet on the GSO 8 for the same reasons. My issue regarding waiting is my lack of patience as an impulsive buyer, rather than tying up capital. If one has the kind of disposable "play fund$" then one can do it like MLM, i.e, order of one each and have an active roster of orders plus some other GSOs acquired through Mondays Sales so that there are always some quality GSO tools to play with and marvel at, and then release the older ones back into the populace as and when the newer orders are fulfilled(seemingly they hold very closely to their original values even when used in this tightly supplied market). I agree that the waiting period for one particular GSO can be quite frustrating both for the vendor and the customer, when the production deck has to get reshuffled for a variety of reasons.

 

[Fancier]

That is in no way the right thing to do.
I gave them money more than one year ago knowing that the GSO 8 would probably be the last one made out of the initial batches... I'm ok with that: I knew the total number of runs that I had to wait for.
What is not right is extending the list in front of knives that have already been paid for.
I paid for a knife, I'm not a generous investor in their company.
How would you react if you bought a car but the salesman filled other peoples order before yours because it makes more profit for him.

I need a car to get to work and earn money to spend on more knives.
The sad fact is that I already own more knives than I could possibly ever need.
Upon thinking about it I may put my Survive orders in my will, just in case.
I wouldn't want the family to argue about the production order in the event of my untimely demise.

 

[SURVIVE! Ellie]

I think the sticking point is having spent the money on a knife that is currently in a holding pattern due to lack of orders and have models come back around for production a second time while my order and money sit waiting. I knew the GSO-10 was down the list but was not aware that it could keep getting rotated to the bottom due to not enough orders, just figured with time it's turn would come around but it looks like with pre-order numbers being not even close to enough for a run, then it's turn might never come.

It will come and nothing is being held back. We will be making the GSO-10 and the GSO-8 as soon as it makes sense to do so. We are super excited about both of those models and can't wait for them to be a reality. In all honesty with working some other things into the mix the timeline on these will still be the same as it was going to be, possibly even sooner.

I can't be on the forums anymore today because the to do list is long. I just want to point out that we have tried to be as open and honest and upfront as possible. We are not in this to steal your money or anything nefarious like that. It just takes a large time and money investment to get these all made. We are going to keep doing everything in our power to get all of the knives done as quickly as possible.

You've all been here with me on the forums for some time now and together we've built quite a neat little community in this corner of the internet. I feel like we do a pretty good job of answering questions and concerns here. All I can ask is that you take that into consideration and trust us to keep this boat afloat and on course.

 

[rswanson]

I can't help but think that the more reading and responding the Survive team needs to do to explain their processes (not even mentioning emails, phone calls, and strategy meetings), the less time there is to make knives.

I know it's important for people to express their frustration and suggest changes but I've been reading variations of the same few comments going back many pages on this sub.

 

[Hard Knocks]

.......I just want to point out that we have tried to be as open and honest and upfront as possible........All I can ask is that you take that into consideration and trust us to keep this boat afloat and on course.

One of the reasons I'm here is that you guys share with us what is going on. Sometimes I would take a different route on the business side of things, and I do worry a bit about the sustainability of the business model only because I look at the two of you as friends and wish the best for you. But as far as the benefit of the doubt, you guys have it from me sister.

 

[cold one]

It will come and nothing is being held back. We will be making the GSO-10 and the GSO-8 as soon as it makes sense to do so. We are super excited about both of those models and can't wait for them to be a reality. In all honesty with working some other things into the mix the timeline on these will still be the same as it was going to be, possibly even sooner.

I'm excited as well, that is why I was a little worried about the larger knives stagnating and going on the back burner as different models were reintroduced. The GSO-8 and GSO-10 are going to be awesome especially in Delta 3V like Nathan's chopper.