pjsjr
Gold Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2005
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That looks to be Ironwood on Ironwood?The Gulf of California ain't too shabby, either. Good fishin' and cold cerveza
View attachment 1118321
I could probably talk him into it!
Thanks a lot Preston, still hasn't completely settled down, but I'm not in the pain I wasThose two look good together, nice pic
Always great information and photos from you, Jack. Thank you.You've probably missed some of the stuff I've posted previously about dating Sheffield knives, (but basically, those 'experts' who reckon they can date a Sheffield knife from a particular tang-stamp are talking through their backsides). Have another read at the last part of my post, and when you're feeling better, post some detailed pics, and we'll see if we can't narrow it down a bit more between us
In the meantime, here's a pic of a Sheffield-made Lambsfoot, if anyone can guess the date of manufacture to within a couple of decades, and explain why they've come to that conclusion, they win a prize
Right, let's have a look at this knife.
Obviously we'll start by investigating the tang-stamp, which in this case, we can actually read: 'W.SAYNOR' over 'LTD' over 'SHEFFIELD'. There is no 'England', underneath the 'Sheffield', which some folks insist is a definite indication of a 19th century knife (but they're wrong). There's also the remains of a stamp on the blade, relating to the Lambsfoot pattern, but no stamp on the reverse of the tang.
There were a number of Sheffield cutlers with the Saynor surname, but fortunately we have an initial. W. Saynor claimed in their later advertising that they were established in 1841, but cutlery firms were not always accurate about information in their adverts (to say the least). The 'W' relates to William Saynor (1851-1903), the son of Joseph Saynor, a table knife hafter. By 1881 William was working as a table knife hafter himself, and living in Rockingham Street, with his wife Annie, and eldest son, Willie or Willy, who was born in 1877. By 1893, William was listed as a spring and table knife manufacturer based in Charles Street, in Sheffield city centre, while he lived in Albert Road, in the Heeley district of the city. The firm was known as William Saynor & Co by 1898. After William's death in 1903, his sons Willie and George William ran the firm in partnership, as W. Saynor, based in 'Carlton Works', 29 Eyre Street. Pruning and budding knives, pocket knives, and razors were now added to the company's output, as well as agricultural implements. Like all Sheffield cutlery firms, then and now, they would have used outworkers in addition to their own employees, and bought products in, made for them by other companies. By 1910, they had become a limited company, relocating to Sidney Street. By the end of the interwar period (pre-1939), Willie was running the firm alone, but died in 1945. W. Saynor Ltd was liquidated in 1952, but soon after W.Saynor (Sheffield) Ltd was resurrected at 'Carlton Works', Furnace Hill, with the same product line. In 1957, Saynor's assets were acquired by Needham, Veall, and Tyzack (now trading as Taylor's Eye Witness), together with their trademarks of 'DEPEND', 'PIONEER', and 'SAYNOR' , which are sometimes seen as stamps, particularly 'DEPEND', and 'DREADNOUGHT', seen on razors.
Adverts from 1919 and 1951.
So we can certainly forget about this being a 19th century knife, and the presence of 'LTD' in the tang stamp indicates that it was made after 1910. Like most Sheffield firms though, Saynor (THIS Saynor) have a fairly convoluted history. After the firm went bankrupt in 1952, the owners seem to have simply set themselves up in different premises, with a very slightly amended name.
So, what about the knife itself? It is a working knife, of reasonable quality manufacture, the blade appears to have some wear, and there is some pitting from rust, which has been polished off. It is properly hafted, with a nickel-silver bolster, and a pivot pin which is way off centre. There is no sign of wear to the tang or spring, and it has a good firm pull and snap.
Attention must be given to how I acquired the knife, with two other identical Lambsfoot knives, and a fourth Saynor knife, which the seller, an antique dealer (and an unscrupulous one), told me he had acquired from an old Sheffield cutler. I had some suspicions about the knives, but got them at what I considered to be a fair price. Now, what are the chances of 4 old Saynor knives, 3 identical, turning up at the same time? Unlikely, but it happens, collectors sell their collections, and genuine old stock is discovered.
Opinion? A hard call. I've spent a lot of time wondering about this knife, Duncan @Campbellclanman even wondered if the covers were synthetic rather than horn, probably because they are glossy and show no wear or shrinkage I imagine. I have wondered the same myself. I don't think this is a knife that has been carried and used, I think the blade acquired it's 'wear' either sitting around as a blade, rusting in a drawer or chest, together with other similar knives, or more likely, in my opinion, it was with a lot of other old blades and parts, rusting away, until some old cutler decided to make himself a bit of money from putting them together, and re-hafting them. At the very least, I think this knife has had a good polish up, and probably had new bolsters and covers fitted. However, that could have been done during any stage of the different incarnations of the company, or after Needham, Veall, and Tyzack acquired their assets, or by any number of cutlers who worked at or for the firm. So this knife could easily have been made in the late 20th century, or even more recently, within the last 10 or 20 years.
All this discussion will hopefully indicate just how hard it can be to accurately date a Sheffield knife, and while I think this knife was made up more recently than 1930, I believe Harvey deserves a prize for his efforts anyway. Of course, unlike Harvey, I had the benefit of having the knife in my hand, and being able to examine it, and I also have (and have had) other Saynor knives with which to compare it. That makes a difference. I will be in touch Harvey, thank you for playing along
Thanks a lot Dwight, I'm tempted to say that if you take the covers off an old Sheffield knife, you'll find the date etched underneath, but that'd be plain cruel!That sounds like impressive technology
Thanks for another superb pic
Hope everyone is having a great weekend
Just been sharing this bottle. Certainly an exceptional beer, but at £20+ a bottle, I'm glad it was a limited edition!I picked up before Xmas and have been looking forward to it
Really, some of the brews that you Guardians drink cause me concern. This 'beer' for example, coconut, cacao and coffee and at the price of this one!
Good that you have such great taste in knivesYou did it again, Dwight, smashing photo!I have already greatly enjoyed reading about the W Saynor history and this knife in particular.cigarrodog - Harvey kudos to you for vigorously attacking the challenge and presenting your findings.
Jack Black - Another educational post to further my level of suspicion when I view what I think may be a real old treasure. Wonderful stuff Jack. Thanks for taking the time.
Have a peaceful Sunday all.
View attachment 1118813[/QUOTE]That is a species of dear Larry. Jack has answered your question in the quote from his post below. He is far more familiar with the background and use of this stag in the Sheffield Cutlery trade. Here is a link to some info on the species.
Thanks Jack!
I’ve got my Ironwood Bigun with me today. Hope y’all have a great day!
Bigun be looking good! You too, have a good Sunday.
When folks, often new posters, ask 'How old is my knife', they don't realise the amount of time and effort that can go into answering that question. There was a feller the other week with a TEW knife, unusually I was even able to tell him the name of the person who made it, and (roughly) when, but then he wanted to ask about 'value' (despite the fact he had actually owned it from new), which contravened the forum rules 
Thank you for the kind words my friend 
