Guided sharpening system - which one?

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3D Anvil said:
Just received my set of Venev Orions and I've got to say I'm disappointed in the QC. The thickness of the diamond layers isn't very consistent. More significantly, the F80 stone I received was nowhere near flat. The blank itself was warped, and the diamond layer right along with it. I was going to send it back, but then I noticed that the diamond layer is 4mm thick on that stone, versus the 3mm they're supposed to be. So I figured I might as well lap it flat, since I'll still have more than 3mm of diamonds even after I remove a lot of material.
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I had the same thing last year on one of my low grit Orion stones.

The top of my 80 grit stone is completely flat, but the bottom of the blank is very slight curved up in the center. This has had absolutely no negative affect on my sharpening though. I have not seen it happen with the OSB binder on the higher grit stones at all. Apparently it tends to happen during the manufacturing process with the non-OSB type binders (for the lower grit stones). The top should be flat, and if it is, then there will be no affect on your sharpening result.
 
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3D Anvil, got a set of used original formula KME Venev's off exchange, and a 2k Venev from Gritomatic store at big river, most backing plates came warped like yours. Konstantin advised putting tape on backing plate to compensate. I used layers of blue tape and they work fine, adjusting thickness using KME diamond stone as flat plate reference.
Did try to bend one of the two 2k's straight, but bond material cracked, my fault was technique, should of added heat and been more precise with locating and bend width jig. Still keep it around thinking I will fill crack but even 1200 is too fine for my uses anyway. This is first time I've seen and heard new formula Venev's warping. Might experiment flattening by adding tape before using grit to lap. Different grit types and sizes will effect stone surface, so you can adjust, within limits, surface to meet your needs.
 
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scottc3 said:
3D Anvil, got a set of used original formula KME Venev's off exchange, and a 2k Venev from Gritomatic store at big river, most backing plates came warped like yours. Konstantin advised putting tape on backing plate to compensate. I used layers of blue tape and they work fine, adjusting thickness using KME diamond stone as flat plate reference.
Did try to bend one of the two 2k's straight, but bond material cracked, my fault was technique, should of added heat and been more precise with locating and bend width jig. Still keep it around thinking I will fill crack but even 1200 is too fine for my uses anyway. This is first time I've seen and heard new formula Venev's warping. Might experiment flattening by adding tape before using grit to lap. Different grit types and sizes will effect stone surface, so you can adjust, within limits, surface to meet your needs.
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Good idea, but too late. ;)

I lapped it very nearly flat using 36 grit sic powder. Took a minute, but no big deal. If the bonded material hadn't been over-thick to begin with I wouldn't' have done it. Also, it wasn't just the aluminum that was warped. If I had just made the top flat with tape, the diamonds would have still been bowed in the middle.

Comparing Diemaker's bonded diamond stones (CGSW, Matrix) and Venev's, I prefer Venev's abrasives, but Diemaker's QC is on another level. He uses thicker aluminum plates and the uniformity of the stones is much better.
 
crowley213 said:
I already had read about using Bar Keepers Friend for cleaning the stones, so I purchased the powder and use it for cleaning. It works great, and as you mentioned, its easy and cheap!

The grit progression you stated for refreshing the Venev stones, do you use it for all different grit stones the same way? Also, I assume the glass plate should be as flat as possible, right? Definitely something I need to check!

Herbert
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I use the 60 120 400 grit for all the Venev stones now matter the grit because the resin isn't rock hard there's no need to got past 400 grit.

You also don't want to just use the 60 grit and that's it you don't want really deep grooves in the resin that can break off and chip away,if you just used 60 grit then the grooves would be deeper and you'd have a lot of tall ridge's which is what you want to avoid.

You will also find the Venev stones stay really flat and you really only need to powder for refreshing the stones to expose more diamonds,I just wait until mine start cutting really slow then I refresh them,and never use a diamond plate of any kind to refresh or flatten them you will tear diamonds from the Venev stones.
 
wade7575 said:
I use the 60 120 400 grit for all the Venev stones now matter the grit because the resin isn't rock hard there's no need to got past 400 grit.

You also don't want to just use the 60 grit and that's it you don't want really deep grooves in the resin that can break off and chip away,if you just used 60 grit then the grooves would be deeper and you'd have a lot of tall ridge's which is what you want to avoid.

You will also find the Venev stones stay really flat and you really only need to powder for refreshing the stones to expose more diamonds,I just wait until mine start cutting really slow then I refresh them,and never use a diamond plate of any kind to refresh or flatten them you will tear diamonds from the Venev stones.
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I've experimented a lot with using only 1 low grit silicon carbide (like 60 grit) on all of the Venev stones, and it works perfectly fine.

Yes, the stone surface feels slightly rougher and yes there are slightly deeper grooves than if you had used finer silicon carbide, but the bond is soft enough not for it to make too much of a difference.

After flattening with low grit silicon carbide, I use a dressing/conditioning Nagura stone (Like the King 8K Nagura, or Gritomatic Bodrid stone as an example). Do a few seconds of rubbing the stones together under running water, and even the finest grit Venev stones smooths out perfect in no time at all.
 
777 Edge said:
I've experimented a lot with using only 1 low grit silicon carbide (like 60 grit) on all of the Venev stones, and it works perfectly fine.

Yes, the stone surface feels slightly rougher and yes there are slightly deeper grooves than if you had used finer silicon carbide, but the bond is soft enough not for it to make too much of a difference.

After flattening with low grit silicon carbide, I use a dressing/conditioning Nagura stone (Like the King 8K Nagura, or Gritomatic Bodrid stone as an example). Do a few seconds of rubbing the stones together under running water, and even the finest grit Venev stones smooths out perfect in no time at all.
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That's my experience, too. With the Venevs I don't see any reason to go above 120, even with the F1200 stone. The sic powder breaks down, so after a few minutes it's a lot finer than 120 anyway.
 
3D Anvil said:
Comparing Diemaker's bonded diamond stones (CGSW, Matrix) and Venev's, I prefer Venev's abrasives, but Diemaker's QC is on another level. He uses thicker aluminum plates and the uniformity of the stones is much better.
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What about Venev diamonds do you prefer over CGSW's diamonds? I enjoy Diemaker's threads n posts and users reports, so I was inclined to include them in kits I'm building for two other family houses.
 
I assume Diemaker's EdgePro bonded stones are the same as his CGSW's, in different form factors.
 
scottc3 said:
What about Venev diamonds do you prefer over CGSW's diamonds? I enjoy Diemaker's threads n posts and users reports, so I was inclined to include them in kits I'm building for two other family houses.
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It's not so much the diamonds as it is the bonding agent. Venevs just seem to load up less and clean easier. They also seem to be semi-porous, so they stay wet longer. Diemaker's stones don't absorb any water, so you have to stop and wet them often.
 
Good to hear your experience comparing them. I never thought of immersing my 1st gen Venev's figuring their phenolic binders would be impervious to water, though I always use a wet water soaked sponge to keep all stone faces wet.
 
I was looking around the internet a bit for a guided system (where the hapstone, wickededge, tsprof, kme,... are absolutely out of the question, they are much to expensive. For what they do are on the edge (pun intended) of ripoff) and learned a few things about various systems, their weaknesses etc.

Then I have found this (toohr knives sharpener #3):
Link removed, read the site rules.

toohr.jpg


From what I have seen, including "price over the edge" products this thing is very well thought out, metal all the way, with no flimsy/plastic parts and it is getting updates with each iteration (toohr #1, #2, this one is #3). Its design is reminding me on my 3d printer, not to mention selected "swinging" point. Stones are probably half useless, but I dont care, will get them somewhere else.

It is also rather expensive for a Chinese product.

Looks like it very new and there are no reviews about it, while there are some reviews about #2:

Even from differences between #2 and #3 it looks like the manufacturer is really trying on making it better, for instance the rails are now 90 degree to the previous ones (which makes the design more sturdy into knife direction), swinging point (which should be, at least from my knowledge of engineering be vastly superior from the one that most of guided systems are using), different fastening system, plastic removed...

Any thoughts about it?
 
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I can't say who copied who, but I can guess.... That Ali Express sharpener looks very much like the SJ Multigrinder sold by SchleifJunkies at about 10x the cost (and obviously higher quality).
 
3D Anvil said:
I can't say who copied who, but I can guess.... That Ali Express sharpener looks very much like the SJ Multigrinder sold by SchleifJunkies at about 10x the cost (and obviously higher quality).
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Well, the toohr #3 is different... the problem is that moderator doesn't allow me to post a link to the aliexpress site while the enbedded image doesn't work from some strange reason.

I have uploaded the image of toohr #3 here: https://i.ibb.co/cJbHdv8/toohr.jpg and based on what I see it is better built than multigrinder 1.0.

I doubt that there is any difference in quality, most are generally available aluminum parts and steel shafts often used in DIY 3d printers.

Anyway I have ordered it, if the chinese manufacturer didn't cut corners (based on the price I wouldn't say so ~150 euros including shipment while the quick calculation of parts comes around 60-70 euros, if I buy them in EU and go full DIY), it should be great. I will report when I get it, somewhere at beginning of September.
 
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The #3 does look like a high-quality bit of kit. I'll be curious to hear your impressions. I really like the idea of having the pivot on a track. That offers some practical advantages. For example, it can be difficult to sharpen the heel of Spydercos on a fixed angle system because the angled stone hits the finger choil. Sliding the pivot so the stone is perpendicular with the blade at the heel would solve that problem. It would also be quite useful for sharpening serrated edges, assuming you had appropriately sized rods that would fit in the stone holder.
 
I've been eyeing out the latest Chinese systems myself too, and the Toohr #3 looks very good. The Chinese are copying some of the eastern European systems now, so the quality is getting progressively better.

As long as the knife clamps are good on Toohr #3, then it could possibly be a superb system for the money.

FYI, "SY tools" recently came out with a "Sy Tools K6" rotating system that looked very promising but as always with some Chinese systems, the knife clamps are terrible and almost completely unusable with many knives. I modified mine with clamp adapters for Hapstone clamps and with this upgrade it works very well.

The Toohr #3 knife clamps look very similar to Kakbritva or Kazak clamps, so it could possibly be very good! The stone holder, pivot and parking hook of the Toohr #3 seems great too.

I hope you'll post about it here when you've received and tried yours!
 
I will try not to forget to report Anyway ping me around 15th of September if I don't post anything.

I was also looking at SY tools but then by coincidence bumped into Toohr and it just seemed that it is made in correct way. Anyway, all the other systems that are charging ridiculous amounts of money for something that is, in its essence, a jig, are out of the question. Like "SJ Multigrinder" that 3D Anvil mentioned. I bet it is made well, but there is just no way, I would pay ~1000 euros for something that I consider a hobby project. I can afford it but I would feel like an idiot paying that much money. I am glad that Chinese can replicate and even improve it, I would rather pay to the original owner of the idea but they have decided to squeeze out every drop of blood from behind customer fingernails. And then charge extra, again ridiculous amounts, for stones with incompatible mounts. No, thank you.
 
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