"Hard Use" knives?

[unit]

I don't think you understand what I mean.

If a person is used to carrying a fixed blade and doing may tasks with them, these people know who they are and what and why they carry them. I am one of these people who always used to carry fixed blades.

Say the same person now can't carry that Fixed Blade for whatever the reason may be, but still needs to do those same tasks. The person will need a strong folder that can take the same use or nearly the same use that that FB did with out either breaking or falling apart etc.

This isn't about Slip Joints and cleaning fingernails.

This is about people who really do feel the need for a fixed blade or a folder approaching fixed blade strength.

Likewise, there seems to be some mutual misunderstanding.

Your updated explanation demonstrates that the the PERSON carrying it defines what a hard use folder is based on their understanding of what they believe a fixed blade can/should do. It would be easy to mistakenly define a folder as "hard use" based on previous use of a fixed blade knife that failed prematurely.

Do you see the problem here? If a person has never been in a situation where a fixed blade was allowed, they have no basis to interpret your definition. Further if a person THINKS they have that understanding, but do not have it at the level you prescribe, they again fail to properly interpret what you are saying.

Further if the person has only experience with poorly made fixed blades that were prone to failure...you definition would seem to indicate that this person would be correct in proclaiming "hard use" a folder surviving the tasks failed by a fixed blade.

these people know who they are and what and why they carry them

This statement puzzles me. It seems like an attitude more than a definition.

Yeah the finger nail thing was a folly used to illustrate my point. If you or anyone else is going to hope to define the term "hard use" it needs to be done so that anyone can identify what the term means. Basing a definition like this on a select group of individuals who have historical experience with different knives and their use is problematic IMO.

 

[cziv]

Typically my choice is a FFG Endura 4. I have cut over a hundred tires with this knife and have yet to damage it in any way other than the edge needs sharpening occasionally.

I have one too a 4 with G-10 and FFG, and I consider it a light use folder.

I try to have the right knife for the right job. Opening boxes, letters general household use - I'll use my Centofante 3 or Kershaw Random Task which both cut like light sabers.

When I go out to show my grandsons how to make a fire from scratch I'll have my Junglas with an Izula in my pocket for shaving tinder and striking the firesteel.

My EDC is either a Hinderer XM or a ZT 0301 which I have "no doubts" will baton through the proper sized branches, while still being sharp enough to shave kindling or behave like a similarly sized fixed blade.

I'm beginning to find that there's no place in my line-up for my RC-3 or RC-4, which are both either a little too big or too small depending on which way you want to look at it for an EDC blade. YMMV

 

[unit]

To quote Ankerson:

A Hard Use Knife should be able to do some light prying, and a small amount of heavier prying, the pivot should be able to take some force without loosening up too much and the lock shouldn't fail the Over Strike and Spine Whacks. This should be able to be done with the same knife with no adjustments during the test.

These capabilities will serve well to define what a hard use knife is. Whether you need a knife like this or not is entirely another discussion altogether.

I submit that there are other "hard uses" that this explanation does not address AT ALL. A knife's primary purpose (I thought) is to CUT, that explanation fails to address ANY cutting task. A piece of round bar with no sharp edges attached to a handle with a lock that does not fail will pass that muster with ease!

The problem is, a knife that passes this description is one that does not FAIL during the task...but there are no stipulations in place to discuss how long it can perform hard cutting tasks before fatigue and hand pain are so overwhelming that use must stop.

All I am suggesting is that we might want to broaden our concepts and considerations for how we describe these knives. "Hard use" seems ripe for interpretation.

 

[unit]

I have one too a 4 with G-10 and FFG, and I consider it a light use folder.

My point exactly!

Your daily use arrives at a totally different ideal knife for your hard uses!

 

[Ankerson]

Likewise, there seems to be some mutual misunderstanding.

Your updated explanation demonstrates that the the PERSON carrying it defines what a hard use folder is based on their understanding of what they believe a fixed blade can/should do. It would be easy to mistakenly define a folder as "hard use" based on previous use of a fixed blade knife that failed prematurely.

Do you see the problem here? If a person has never been in a situation where a fixed blade was allowed, they have no basis to interpret your definition. Further if a person THINKS they have that understanding, but do not have it at the level you prescribe, they again fail to properly interpret what you are saying.

Further if the person has only experience with poorly made fixed blades that were prone to failure...you definition would seem to indicate that this person would be correct in proclaiming "hard use" a folder surviving the tasks failed by a fixed blade.



This statement puzzles me. It seems like an attitude more than a definition.

Yeah the finger nail thing was a folly used to illustrate my point. If you or anyone else is going to hope to define the term "hard use" it needs to be done so that anyone can identify what the term means. Basing a definition like this on a select group of individuals who have historical experience with different knives and their use is problematic IMO.

I think you are going way too deep into the topic at hand, it's not really all that complicated.

As an example, using myself here, when I was allowed to carry a fixed blade all the time I also carried a slipjoint for the easy things. You could replace slip joint with something like an Endura or a Sage as an example. So say I have that fixed blade and the folder and need to do a task that I know might damage that folder if I use it I would use the fixed blade instead.

The hard Use folder is just more of an all around use knife that can do many of the harder tasks that would be accomplished by a fixed blade in ideal situations and will also do the tasks accomplished by the Endura or other folder.

Or another way would be one would do tasks with it that you would know would damage that lighter folder, tasks that would be done better or really should be done with a fixed blade. But the person can't carry a fixed blade due to legal or other reasons.

This isn't just about cutting, it's about using a knife as an all around tool when other tools aren't available.

 

[cziv]

"Hard use" seems ripe for interpretation.

Totally on the mark unit with that remark. I can't believe you cut that many tires with your Endura! How many sharpenings per how many tires if you don't mind sharing a guess? The only reason I don't consider mine hard use is because of the prying and batoning stuff. Mine's extremely sharp - came out of the box with the same edge it still has on it and still shave hair (not hard use but hard to do with some knives)

 

[singularity35]

I submit that there are other "hard uses" that this explanation does not address AT ALL. A knife's primary purpose (I thought) is to CUT, that explanation fails to address ANY cutting task. A piece of round bar with no sharp edges attached to a handle with a lock that does not fail will pass that muster with ease!

The problem is, a knife that passes this description is one that does not FAIL during the task...but there are no stipulations in place to discuss how long it can perform hard cutting tasks before fatigue and hand pain are so overwhelming that use must stop.

All I am suggesting is that we might want to broaden our concepts and considerations for how we describe these knives. "Hard use" seems ripe for interpretation.

By definition, a knife is a tool for cutting. The phrase hard use knife carries that meaning implicitly. So taking that a knife has a blade that cuts means a round bar is ruled out by the definition. And of course, we are talking about folding knives.

Comfort in use, OTOH cannot be part of the definition because that will depend on how well the knife is designed and executed.

 

[unit]

Totally on the mark unit with that remark. I can't believe you cut that many tires with your Endura! How many sharpenings per how many tires if you don't mind sharing a guess? The only reason I don't consider mine hard use is because of the prying and batoning stuff. Mine's extremely sharp - came out of the box with the same edge it still has on it and still shave hair (not hard use but hard to do with some knives)

The fundamental problem I have is that I define hard use differently. I think hard use is work that makes a guy sweat and get sore muscles. I think that a knife that performs these duties with less induced stress and strain to the user is a BETTER hard use knife.

Obviously, we will all arrive at different ideal knives to fit our own idea of what hard use it.

To answer your question, it depends greatly on the tires that need to be decommissioned. Some are harder on edges than others. I can probably get 20 or 30 4 inch long cuts through a tire with a blade before *I* choose to sharpen it. That said, I have high standards for how sharp I like my knives to be. A couple weeks ago I made a video of cutting an entire sidewall out of a tire with a VG-10 Endura profiled at 20 degrees. The cut length was roughly 6 feet in length...I later cut a bunch of Kevlar "rope" and probably 10 more tires since then. I have not sharpened the knife and it is in my pocket at the moment.....I just checked and yup, still pops hair!...but it does have a couple blemishes that I can not see, but can feel...guess I will fix that tonight.

 

[singularity35]

Obviously, we will all arrive at different ideal knives to fit our own idea of what hard use it.

I think that we agree on this. To have just one definition of "hard use" is to limit the versatility of the tool that
we all love so much.

PS: Maybe we should just call our "hard use" sharpened prybars and you will understand what we mean.

 

[Folderguy]

Agreed folderguy, but what do you use for the tasks that may damage your precious? If cutting a big 'ole dirty knot of rope in the shed makes you cringe, you need that hard use folder, guy.

Cutting rope? Not a prob! I'll use my better knives for that sort of stuff all day long. That's not hard use in my opinion.

The knives that I have which I consider hard use are my Zero Tolerance 0301, Cold Steel Recon 1, Cold Steel Mini Lawman. One hard use knife that I don't abuse at all is my Cold Steel Black Rhino; just too good lookin' to really rough up.

However, I'm not going to take my nicer knives and really abuse them, like using them for knife throwing practice, or hitting the spine of the blade with a metal hammer to drive it through wood or something else, nor will I simply throw them on the ground when I'm working. That will thrash 'em a bit too much. I have other knives for those purposes...

Which ones will I willingly abuse? I have several, but the two that first come to mind are my Cold Steel Recon 1 and my Mini-Lawman. Also, I have a Kershaw fixed blade that's probably 35 years old, and that knife has been through some stuff...... if you know what I mean.

 

[philwar]

Okay, we have a bunch of threads going about "hard-use, uber tough, folding-fixed-blade" knives going on right now. A bunch of people seem to like em, and a bunch don't.

It's simple, stabman. Spyderco's are very good at many things, they generally SUCK at a few other things. Most of the time that will never matter but there you are.
Besides the Spyderco's I have I like knives who can do EVERYTHING I ask of them, even if they can't do some of those things as well as a Spyderco.

There's nothing not to like about a tough beefy hard-use folder except if it offends your sensibilities as a Spyderco fanboi. Secretly, somewhere deep inside you you worry that a Zero Tolerance is more knife than your Endura, and you try to put your mind at ease by posts like these. You own Striders so I know you know the truth, even if you won't admit it.
If you don't like a ZT, an XM-18 or similar, don't buy them, get another Spyderco instead. I don't mind. Why would YOU mind what people like me prefer? You'll never hear me ragging on thin, delicate slicers like 95% of Spyderco's are.

This thread is as lame as the one where people are complaining that their Prius is better at day-to-day chores than a Landrover Disco. It is, and it is irrelevant. The Disco CAN go offroad, even if it doesn't happen very often. I'm a Discovery type, you're more of a Prius fan.
Can't we all just get along?

 

[singularity35]

The fundamental problem I have is that I define hard use differently. I think hard use is work that makes a guy sweat and get sore muscles. I think that a knife that performs these duties with less induced stress and strain to the user is a BETTER hard use knife.

This confused me. Let's take a FFG delica, it may be the best knife for a certain task, does that mean it's a hard use folder?

 

[Stainz]

Oddly, I carry two knives... one, an EDC user, the other - a heavier duty for emergencies - and just because it's neat. As a current example, like Tostig, I carried a blemished Kershaw 1725SG2 JYDII for a user this AM, with my Boker Haddock as a backup. Several days ago, it was a BM 755 MPR as a user; ZT-0301 as a backup. Users do show wear and use - most of the 'backups' are pristine. My knives... my hobby... my rules (... or rationalization!)!!

Stainz

 

[unit]

This confused me. Let's take a FFG delica, it may be the best knife for a certain task, does that mean it's a hard use folder?

It depends on what that use is. My explanation sucks, I will grant that entirely. Hard use is always going to be relative, and there will always be a guy that will say, "that is not hard use!" with a certain air of arrogance.

If you are putting 50 pounds of force into the handle of a knife to make a cut, a lot of people would say that is a hard cut (perhaps?). If you have a more optimized knife for the task that takes say 30 pounds to make the same cut, obviously one is BETTER for the task. The task (use) is the same, but one guy can do a lot more of it before getting so fatigued that he has to stop.

Where you draw the line is subjective...I am just saying that I do some tasks that require a lot of force on the handle of the knife. Oddly enough the same task performed by a knife most would never call "hard use" is much easier than say a 1/4 inch wide "hard use" folder.

Perhaps I should market my ideas as "easy use" knives...I think that is really what a LOT of people are after, right?...making their difficult situations easier?

I hope I have not ticked anyone off. I hope to inspire a little bit of thought (not temper). I just think "hard use" seems to have spun into a much narrower duty description than perhaps it should be.

 

[Ankerson]

It depends on what that use is. My explanation sucks, I will grant that entirely. Hard use is always going to be relative, and there will always be a guy that will say, "that is not hard use!" with a certain air of arrogance.

If you are putting 50 pounds of force into the handle of a knife to make a cut, a lot of people would say that is a hard cut (perhaps?). If you have a more optimized knife for the task that takes say 30 pounds to make the same cut, obviously one is BETTER for the task. The task (use) is the same, but one guy can do a lot more of it before getting so fatigued that he has to stop.

Where you draw the line is subjective...I am just saying that I do some tasks that require a lot of force on the handle of the knife. Oddly enough the same task performed by a knife most would never call "hard use" is much easier than say a 1/4 inch wide "hard use" folder.

Perhaps I should market my ideas as "easy use" knives...I think that is really what a LOT of people are after, right?...making their difficult situations easier?

I hope I have not ticked anyone off. I hope to inspire a little bit of thought (not temper). I just think "hard use" seems to have spun into a much narrower duty description than perhaps it should be.

How many times have you see or heard of someone lending out their knife and getting it back with a bent blade or snapped off tip?

Kinda like this in away:

I have been using (Enter folder here) for 10 years and it's tough as nails and gone through all kinds of stuff over the years etc, etc....

They loan it out for 2 mins and they get it back with the tip snapped off or a bent blade...... Well you said it was tough didn't you.

I have seen things like this happen way too many times over the years, it's even happened to me a few times.

What is tough or hard use to one person could be light use to another.

 

[yotehunter422]

And thus we learn the origins of turbulence:

Air, cut by Strider knives.

lol

My hard users are my Rat 3, mini barrage, leatherman knives, and my fixed presidio.

 

[singularity35]

It depends on what that use is. My explanation sucks, I will grant that entirely. Hard use is always going to be relative, and there will always be a guy that will say, "that is not hard use!" with a certain air of arrogance.

If you are putting 50 pounds of force into the handle of a knife to make a cut, a lot of people would say that is a hard cut (perhaps?). If you have a more optimized knife for the task that takes say 30 pounds to make the same cut, obviously one is BETTER for the task. The task (use) is the same, but one guy can do a lot more of it before getting so fatigued that he has to stop.

Where you draw the line is subjective...I am just saying that I do some tasks that require a lot of force on the handle of the knife. Oddly enough the same task performed by a knife most would never call "hard use" is much easier than say a 1/4 inch wide "hard use" folder.

Perhaps I should market my ideas as "easy use" knives...I think that is really what a LOT of people are after, right?...making their difficult situations easier?

I hope I have not ticked anyone off. I hope to inspire a little bit of thought (not temper). I just think "hard use" seems to have spun into a much narrower duty description than perhaps it should be.

Indeed this is thought provoking in a way that a I have to move my sluggish mental processes.

Ok, so a knife will make a certain task easier. Let's take cutting up tomatoes as an example. I'd guess a brand new box cutter will make short work of tomatoes, but does this capability constitute "hard use"?

IMHO, no. It may excel at slicing soft material or even excel at a lot of use cutting cardboard but will the blade survive lateral pressures? Can the knife withstand stresses that say a strider can?

To be called hard use a knife must be able to survive stresses that other less heavily built knives cannot. It must survive it intact and still be able to function as a knife when used in situations where it is subjected to a lot of force. And this applies to all parts of the knife. Not just the lock or the blade or the pivot but the whole knife(folder).

Let's also look at the FFG Endura you use to cut up tires. You use them extensively and cut up a lot of tough material. But If you used it the same way that you used it in your bevel angle demo videos, you were very careful to apply a very even force. Would it have survived rough use? By rough I mean to subject it to stresses in less careful application of force. IMHO, the knife survived more as a credit to your skill and technique and not because the knife(all parts of it) is intrinsically heavily built.

Whew! That's a lot of words.

 

[unit]

How many times have you see or heard of someone lending out their knife and getting it back with a bent blade or snapped off tip?

Kinda like this in away:

I have been using (Enter folder here) for 10 years and it's tough as nails and gone through all kinds of stuff over the years etc, etc....

They loan it out for 2 mins and they get it back with the tip snapped off or a bent blade...... Well you said it was tough.

I have seen things like this happen way too many times over the years, it's even happened to me a few times.

I respect that.

But that is "tough". A diamond bit for drilling rock performs an amazing task too, but if you use it wrong it shatters. I am not going to call it a light duty tool though...I would think cutting granite is pretty "hard use".

I loaned out my Umnumzaan to a guy recently. He was wanting to cut a big sheet of reinforced rubber for a section repair on a tractor tire. He handed the knife back and declared that it was "crap". The tip was too blunt and would not easily pierce the sheet, and the thick blade kept getting bound up in the material...it made his work harder. My Endura has performed the same task many times with ease.

It is all good. I understand what you are saying and know how *you* define hard use. I just want to demonstrate that there are other knife uses that at least one person would call "hard use" that does not match your definition.

I get the feeling that similar discussions have taken place regarding terms like "tactical" and "survival". Knives have a lot of uses and almost every one of them is "hard" if the knife you have can not do it well.

 

[Ankerson]

I respect that.

But that is "tough". A diamond bit for drilling rock performs an amazing task too, but if you use it wrong it shatters. I am not going to call it a light duty tool though...I would think cutting granite is pretty "hard use".

I loaned out my Umnumzaan to a guy recently. He was wanting to cut a big sheet of reinforced rubber for a section repair on a tractor tire. He handed the knife back and declared that it was "crap". The tip was too blunt and would not easily pierce the sheet, and the thick blade kept getting bound up in the material...it made his work harder. My Endura has performed the same task many times with ease.

It is all good. I understand what you are saying and know how *you* define hard use. I just want to demonstrate that there are other knife uses that at least one person would call "hard use" that does not match your definition.

I get the feeling that similar discussions have taken place regarding terms like "tactical" and "survival". Knives have a lot of uses and almost every one of them is "hard" if the knife you have can not do it well.

I know exactly what you are saying. :thumbup:

The other day I had to cut the bottom out of a large Styrofoam tub, it was pretty thick too, like 2" thick. Now with the large collection of knives at hand that I have do you know what knife I used?

I used my Endura 4 FFG ZDP-189. :thumbup:

Why did I choose that knife?

Well if you have ever cut Styrofoam you know what a PITA it is to cut and it will bind a blade up in a heartbeat. So I picked the thinnest blade I had on hand and used that, OH the blade was HOT after I was done too. Sure I could have used a knife with a thicker blade, but it would have been a lot harder to do that task. It's about choices and picking the best tool for the job at hand.

 

[Blop]

To quote Ankerson:

A Hard Use Knife should be able to do some light prying, and a small amount of heavier prying, the pivot should be able to take some force without loosening up too much and the lock shouldn't fail the Over Strike and Spine Whacks. This should be able to be done with the same knife with no adjustments during the test.

What makes the difference between light and heavier prying? In respect to the original question, which light prying canßt be done with regular edc knives, like the endura or that type?