"Hard Use" knives?

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singularity35 said:
Indeed this is thought provoking in a way that a I have to move my sluggish mental processes. :D

Ok, so a knife will make a certain task easier. Let's take cutting up tomatoes as an example. I'd guess a brand new box cutter will make short work of tomatoes, but does this capability constitute "hard use"?

IMHO, no. It may excel at slicing soft material or even excel at a lot of use cutting cardboard but will the blade survive lateral pressures? Can the knife withstand stresses that say a strider can?

To be called hard use a knife must be able to survive stresses that other less heavily built knives cannot. It must survive it intact and still be able to function as a knife when used in situations where it is subjected to a lot of force. And this applies to all parts of the knife. Not just the lock or the blade or the pivot but the whole knife(folder).
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Is the tomato you cut causing you to sweat and get sore muscles? Would a different knife change that? Typically I would say that cutting a tomato is not a hard use (even with my crappy definition you questioned).

The box cutter CAN survive stresses that other less heavily built knives cannot. It CAN survive a lot of force (depending on how you define "a lot"). HOW MUCH force does it need to survive? I submitt that if you are doing HARD WORK (i.e. that which requires you to put force into the handle of the knife that causes you the user to start sweating and eventually get sore muscles...we can amend that to include fatigue to the point of needing to rest, if you like) and that hard work does not result in failure of the knife...the knife is up to the task of "hard work".

Perhaps it is the way we pronounce "tomato" LOL.

Hey, it is all good, I know where you are coming from...hopefully you follow my logic. We do not have to agree entirely, and I know that the term "hard use" is not going away any time soon, and it probably will never be defined in a manner that all users and manufacturer (who use the term) can agree on.
 
Blop said:
What makes the difference between light and heavier prying? In respect to the original question, which light prying canßt be done with regular edc knives, like the endura or that type?
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Well, if you're talking about the FFG Endura, I would think that besides prying out staples you'd be hard put to keep the blade intact with any kind of prying. The saber ground one has a stronger tip but I'd say not quite overbuilt pivot, handle, and lock.

Oh and since a picture(video must be worth more :D) is worth a thousand words...

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=759783

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=759952
 
unit said:
Is the tomato you cut causing you to sweat and get sore muscles? Would a different knife change that? Typically I would say that cutting a tomato is not a hard use (even with my crappy definition you questioned).

The box cutter CAN survive stresses that other less heavily built knives cannot. It CAN survive a lot of force (depending on how you define "a lot"). HOW MUCH force does it need to survive? I submitt that if you are doing HARD WORK (i.e. that which requires you to put force into the handle of the knife that causes you the user to start sweating and eventually get sore muscles...we can amend that to include fatigue to the point of needing to rest, if you like) and that hard work does not result in failure of the knife...the knife is up to the task of "hard work".

Perhaps it is the way we pronounce "tomato" LOL.

Hey, it is all good, I know where you are coming from...hopefully you follow my logic. We do not have to agree entirely, and I know that the term "hard use" is not going away any time soon, and it probably will never be defined in a manner that all users and manufacturer (who use the term) can agree on.
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Actually, I do understand you too. :D

Since we were both trying to explain ourselves(although poorly for me) I find it is fun to explore our positions. :D
 
In all honesty I don't need my SnG. I just like it and get satisfaction from using a beefy knife on occasion. It won't replace my small sebbie, but I sure as hell love using it.
 
I have to say that when I read about anyone batoning a folder through a branch, I have to laugh out loud at the bad bush crafting technique on display.

What a foolish "alternate method" for cutting a branch. It not only takes way more effort than doing the task with some actual knife technique, like beaver cutting the perimeter of the branch for example, it unnecessarily risks damage to the folder.

As a an aside, there is no folding knife that approaches the strength of a quality full tang fixed blade of like blade thickness and length, especially on a dollar for dollar basis. A heavy duty $400 fixed blade is going to a chunk of flexible supersteel compared to $400 of screwed together stainless steel and titanium.
 
Boats said:
I have to say that when I read about anyone batoning a folder through a branch, I have to laugh out loud at the bad bush crafting technique on display.

What a foolish "alternate method" for cutting a branch. It not only takes way more effort than doing the task with some actual knife technique, like beaver cutting the perimeter of the branch for example, it unnecessarily risks damage to the folder.

As a an aside, there is no folding knife that approaches the strength of a quality full tang fixed blade of like blade thickness and length, especially on a dollar for dollar basis. A heavy duty $400 fixed blade is going to a chunk of flexible supersteel compared to $400 of screwed together stainless steel and titanium.
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You don't have anything new here, dude. It was fun discussing with unit because he was coming from a refreshing new angle. Everything you're saying has been said and countered AD NAUSEUM.
 
singularity35 said:
You don't have anything new here, dude. It was fun discussing with unit because he was coming from a refreshing new angle. Everything you're saying has been said and countered AD NAUSEUM.
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Were you Mr. Originality yourself, I might take offense at that.:rolleyes: Is it time for another semi-retarded Glock analogy yet?
 
I like to draw a parallel to my camping - aka 'bushcraft' - knife progression. There was a time - LBJ was Prez - that a Boy Scout folder - and a Western hunting knife - bought with Green Stamps - was sufficient. Add my Dad's old KaBar - then an SAK - and a Buck 301 & 110 - more SAKs - Buck 119 &, finally, a 192 Vanguard - nirvana - until I was 'enlightened'. I no longer hunt - I did enjoy hiking & camping - better examples of 'bushcraft' knives existed - and the mad dash began. Oddly, although retired, camping was replaced by motels, lodges, etc. Still, you should see the collection of such I have acquired - and the great use they get - around the yard, trimming bushes and trees.

That Buck 110 was lost - the 301 is still here, as are many SAKs. Having seen others destroy some nice knives - whether mis-use, carelessness, or accident - I decided I need stronger - more sure - pocket knives. I have tried a bit of everything - and endeavored to use my knives as cutters. Still, I wanted more sturdy - ie, hard-use-capable - knives. The chronology of my purchases tell the story. I doubt I could improve on one of my latest, the ZT-0301, appreciably - there is no need to try. I have no need for fully automatic knives, and my one such example, a present from my wife, will never gain a sibling. Nothing 'tacticool', either. I can - and do - legally carry something louder.

Do I really need a 'hard-use' knife? Hardly. A Buck 110 was/is a lot of hard-use for the money paid. It is nice to know I have a stout knife, of course, in case I need it. Do I really 'need' a CCW? I did reach in my pocket and gripped it once when approached by two guys in the back of a store. It's presence then was reassuring... but that's another story.

Stainz
 
Here's my response to these questions about the necessity of hard use folders: I don't think there is one for the most part. That is, unless someone wants to do a hard use test cutting their way out of/into a car or something. That btw, if possible, wouldn't be such an impractical scenario. The XM-18 was designed by a fireman (Rick Hinderer) with his fireman tasks in mind btw. Another possible scenario might be self defense. In the video of the former Navy Seal stabbing the dummy, his knife tip broke off. It did get the job done, but my guess is that a tanto Strider or an XM-18 wouldn't have chipped. That more speculation than anything else at the moment. Arguably however, that particular task wouldn't be a reasonable one to attempt with a slip joint. To the people claiming that slip joints can do EVERYTHING other folders can do is false. This may not be considered practical to those folks, but it's a fact.

HOWEVER, this question about necessity is hypocritical in this sense: There isn't any reasonable task in which we would use a knife that could NOT be done with a knife that cost <$30. So these comments about "hard use knives" being excessive by people who buy knives that cost >~$30 is utterly hypocritical.

This is a knife forum. We all buy into the excess because this is something we all like.
 
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For the record, I have an XM-18 and a tanto SnG and I prefer not to pry with them. It does seem like the wrong tool for the job to me. I'd much rather use my Leatherman Wave for such things. If I ever have to baton, it'll probably be because I'm in some nature area and in that scenario, I'd probably have a fixed blade.

An emergency prying scenario might be something like a car crash and IF the XM-18 were up to the task, it would be nice to know that I have it rather than something like a Spyderco Endura (I love the Waved Enduras btw).
 
I get confused about the ongoing arguments regarding these type of threads. FB vs Folder, light duty vs hard use. I'ts pretty simple for me. I like knives! I see a knife I like and I buy it. It may be a beefy knife or not so beefy. I'm gonna use the knife in my pocket as it should be used in a normal day. If a situation pops up that I "Must use it as a hard use knife" I still will and hope for the best. You buy what you want or what you think you need. This deal that you need to explain or defend this decision is "Hoggwash"!!! I don't need a 4x4 truck day in and day out. But I drive one anyway. Because I like it and I wanted it. Same goes for my motorcycle as does my knives....;)
 
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philwar said:
There's nothing not to like about a tough beefy hard-use folder except if it offends your sensibilities as a Spyderco fanboi. Secretly, somewhere deep inside you you worry that a Zero Tolerance is more knife than your Endura, and you try to put your mind at ease by posts like these. You own Striders so I know you know the truth, even if you won't admit it.If you don't like a ZT, an XM-18 or similar, don't buy them, get another Spyderco instead. I don't mind. Why would YOU mind what people like me prefer? You'll never hear me ragging on thin, delicate slicers like 95% of Spyderco's are.
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Truth? The truth is that that I gt a couple of Striders because they LOOK COOL. That's the truth of the matter.
Sure, they have strong tips, but the thickness of the whole blade makes them a bit less suited to cutting, which is what I use my knives for.
BUT, did I mention how cool my SmF's look?;)

And many people DO rag on people who own thinner knives for some reason, which is why this thread got started. I'm interested in what it is that people are "needing" hard-use folders for, beyond looking cool (which I already said was a valid enough reason...just be honest about it).
 
stabman said:
And many people DO rag on people who own thinner knives for some reason, which is why this thread got started.
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Can you provide some links to those posts? The only ragging I've seen have been on locking folders from the slip joint fans and "hard use" folders from the non-hard-use (?) fans.
 
Kaizen1 said:
Can you provide some links to those posts? The only ragging I've seen have been on locking folders from the slip joint fans and "hard use" folders from the non-hard-use (?) fans.
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If I get bored enough later.:)
But if you look in some of the hard-use testing threads, you'll see something at least approacing what I'm talking about.
 
I'd like to see those threads too. The thread's where slipjoints and spyderco's are bashed as being wimpy. The one's where people brag that hard use knives are better for slicing and cutting cheese. I wanna see those. There must be a bunch, cause it keeps getting brought up as a defense for starting threads that bash strider's, cold steel etc.
 
Kaizen1 said:
There isn't any reasonable task in which we would use a knife that could NOT be done with a knife that cost <$30. So these comments about "hard use knives" being excessive by people who buy knives that cost >~$30 is utterly hypocritical.

This is a knife forum. We all buy into the excess because this is something we all like.
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Thank you, that is exactly how I see it. All my folders can do every reasonable task one can possibly ask of it.
Some of my folders can do quite unreasonable tasks too, and I like them better (in general), even if they're hardly ever called upon.
 
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