Hardware stores suck?

[sprokker]

I would agree with Knife Clerk that there probably isn't a great mark up in knives. Certainly not the 200% quoted earlier in this thread versus Internet sites. I'm in the building materials distribution business and I would guess that most retailers; lumberyards or hardware stores are lucky to make 50% and no where near that on many items.

Something over the Internet going for 200% under MSRP would be very suspect IMHO.

I don't even know what "200% under MSRP" means - I guess that when I buy it, instead of me paying the merchant, the merchant just gives me the knife, plus 100% of MSRP, for free. Yes, that would be suspicious.

But what I actually said in my post was that the local hardware store charged 180% to 200% of the prices online. Specifically, they wanted $49.95 for the Gerber Freeman Caping, which is available here for $29.95. Ok, so that's only 167% of the online price, but there are other examples. I ended up buying from Knifecenter.com and was NOT ripped off, the knife showed up quickly and was new-in-the-box, as promised.

Ascoe: you got it.

 

[Gregg Jackson]

Here in California there's a chain of hardware stores named Orchard Supply Hardware ("OSH" to the locals). They were bought by Sears a few years ago but kept their own identity. My local OSH has a display of knives ranging from Coast to Gerber and Buck. I've never tried to buy a knife there, so I don't know if anyone in the store is knowledgeable about them.

I live in Silicon Valley, where "hardware" can also mean computers. There's a computer store chain named Fry's Electronics that stocks tools in addition to electonics components. That's where I found a set of Torx keys when the local hardware stores didn't have the smaller sizes I needed for knife work. I recently bought a Leatherman New Wave there for less than the online price. They also have a lot of low end imported folding knives and some tarted up "commemorative" knives.

 

[lasersailor184]

I use my local hardware store as a hardware store, not a knife store. If they have a good deal, I'll go for it, but I don't go in there looking for one.

 

[Bob W]

Yeah, I never expected them to have 10' oak floor cases of Queen and Boker knives. And it wouldn't be my preferred knife source either. But wouldn't you expect a hardware store to have some basic user knives on hand? I don't think anyone around here (very low-tech, mostly uneducated, and rural) is going to place an internet order or drive three hours to a 'real' knife store just to get a small pocketknife for work.

In the past hardware stores have always stocked pocketknives...

-Bob

 

[ErikD]

I really hate when people start complaining about retail pricing, it just really gets to me lately. I work in retail, in a pharmacy, at least until I get my degree. I get people coming up to me complaining that we are charging PENNIES more than the store down the street. Will that other place deliver it to you for free? Will they have your script ready 10 minutes after you bring it in? Will they help you to deal with your PITA insurance co if needed? NO, NO, NO. I am just sick and tired of people wanting to have the best service in the world but pay nothing for it.

The only way a compnay will get, and keep, knowledable and firendly staff is if they pay well. And it would be impossible to pay those people well if they were making a 5% margin. I think the best thing to do, if you are lucky enough to be able to, is find a local knife shop. Hopefully they will know about knives, and be willing to talk knives with you. Be willing to pay a bit more than on the internet, afterall you are getting much ore out of the deal. Just think if you bought a knife online for $29.95 + $5.95 for shipping + tax and you didn't like it. Then you want to ship it back, oh another $5.95 please, and many places have a 5-10% restocking fee. Guess how much that knife is costing you now?

 

[Mitchell Knives]

I've seen some retailers charge $80.00 for a Delica; certainly not the case of only a few pennies.

 

[Bob W]

I really hate when people start complaining about retail pricing, it just really gets to me lately.

I didn't mean for this topic to stray into pricing, but since you brought it up...

The local ACE is competitive with screws, power tools, ladders, stains and paints, etc. They often have the very lowest prices on hardware supplies, especially in their salebills. So why do they think it's OK to rob people for pocketknives?

As far as online vs. brick-and-mortar stores, I've always found the best selection, service, and prices online. Show me a knife shop anywhere in my entire state, or neighboring states, with even half the selection of a major online retailer. The shipping charges argument doesn't hold water either; sky-high local sales taxes often cost more than shipping. $300 order from AG Russell = $6.95 shipping. $300 from SMKW = $13 shipping. $300 spree at local shop = ~$24 tax.

As ElectricZombie mentioned, the difference between online and local is rarely a matter of pennies. And overhead expenses of local stores justify the difference? Yeah, I bet products at the Knifeworks warehouse jump into shipping crates by themselves, and I bet KnifeOutlet workers use kerosene lamps to avoid electric bills, and I bet three display cases at the mall cost more than the interior at SMKW... Give me a break.

-Bob

 

[Knifeclerk]

I didn't mean for this topic to stray into pricing, but since you brought it up...

The local ACE is competitive with screws, power tools, ladders, stains and paints, etc. They often have the very lowest prices on hardware supplies, especially in their salebills. So why do they think it's OK to rob people for pocketknives?

As far as online vs. brick-and-mortar stores, I've always found the best selection, service, and prices online. Show me a knife shop anywhere in my entire state, or neighboring states, with even half the selection of a major online retailer. The shipping charges argument doesn't hold water either; sky-high local sales taxes often cost more than shipping. $300 order from AG Russell = $6.95 shipping. $300 from SMKW = $13 shipping. $300 spree at local shop = ~$24 tax.

As ElectricZombie mentioned, the difference between online and local is rarely a matter of pennies. And overhead expenses of local stores justify the difference? Yeah, I bet products at the Knifeworks warehouse jump into shipping crates by themselves, and I bet KnifeOutlet workers use kerosene lamps to avoid electric bills, and I bet three display cases at the mall cost more than the interior at SMKW... Give me a break.

-Bob

ROFLMFAOWMPAMAAABSUMA!!!!!1
Of course. Now in your universe i suppose rent in a wherehouse or storage company rivals the rent in a mall or shoppind district. How many people do you think it takes to run an online store? Just take a wild ****ing guess. We have 4 people working my tiny ass store and i'm lucky to get 2 days off in a given week. And I had better get paid more than some dockworker who just has to move boxes. I have to deal with malltards, mallninjas, and shoplifters who are often one or the other.
We charge MSRP. Who would have thought that it would be such a crime to charge what the MANUFACTURER TELLS US TO!?!? If MSRP is too high, then you should take it up with Spyderco, Benchmade, Kershaw and every other God Damn company.

 

[allyourblood]

ROFLMFAOWMPAMAAABSUMA!!!!!1
Of course. Now in your universe i suppose rent in a wherehouse or storage company rivals the rent in a mall or shoppind district. How many people do you think it takes to run an online store? Just take a wild ****ing guess. We have 4 people working my tiny ass store and i'm lucky to get 2 days off in a given week. And I had better get paid more than some dockworker who just has to move boxes. I have to deal with malltards, mallninjas, and shoplifters who are often one or the other.
We charge MSRP. Who would have thought that it would be such a crime to charge what the MANUFACTURER TELLS US TO!?!? If MSRP is too high, then you should take it up with Spyderco, Benchmade, Kershaw and every other God Damn company.

wow, not only are you way out of line, your language is HIGHLY inappropriate for the General forums.

your logic regarding MSRPs is flawed: if Spyderco sold you a Military for $80 (or whatever), and stated MSRP as $400, would you charge it? you can charge MSRP all you want, but the issue isn't to be taken up with each manufacturer. in the end, it's still up to the retailer to determine the final price...

abe

 

[Bob W]

Aw man, now we're really far off topic, and I think we've been here before. DejaVu.

Yeah, small shops have to charge msrp to make up for lower volume sales, that's just the way it goes, and I'm not really arguing that point. But that's no excuse for the selection and service found at local stores around here. I personally have more knives than all three local hardware stores combined!

In the case of the mentioned $80 Delica, the msrp is only $67. Beats the heck out of me why the msrp is so high - I'm not a retail expert. But that knife can be bought anywhere for $50 - $55. I do have a friend who worked as a manager in an outdoor supply store; they were under contract with manufacturers to sell items at certain prices. It's a balancing act decided by managers and accountants - sell fewer items at a higher profit, or sell more items at a lower profit.

I think we live in the same universe. But a mall shop costs more to operate than SMKW? Have you seen that place, or AG Russell's new showroom, or New Graham?! I'd pay a dollar extra to shop there!

No, I don't think a salesperson at the mall should make more money than a 'dockworker' or warehouse employee. About the same I figure. No education required. There are trade-offs between filthy physical labor (which I don't mind) and dealing with customers (which I think sucks). Many positions at either location are often staffed by students or temps.

How many people do you think it takes to run an online store? Just take a wild ****ing guess. We have 4 people working my tiny ass store

I'm not sure I get your point. The average online knife store probably has more than four employees (billing, sales, managers, maintainence, shipping, warehouse), making their operating expenses higher?

Best Wishes,
Bob

 

[Knifeclerk]

Thanks for letting me rant, Bob. The final point I was making was that in my store alone (we are a chain) we need a minimum of 4 people to run it. That is on top of all the good people working at the wherehouse, on top of all the managers that are dealing with sales reps, etcetera etcetera. Point being that regardless of how many people are needed to operate an internet site, there will always be more people needed to run a physical store.
I hope this point is more clearly made.
-KC

 

[allyourblood]

Point being that regardless of how many people are needed to operate an internet site, there will always be more people needed to run a physical store.
I hope this point is more clearly made.
-KC

i just can't see why this is necessarily true. even after everything you listed, i don't see this formula working consistently for every company, knife retailers included.

abe m.

 

[Thirteenth Star]

At the Home Depot on Jefferson Blvd. in Los Angeles I asked a clerk where the knives were, and was shown box cutters.

 

[Eric_425]

Didn't any of you guys work at retail stores when you were teenagers? I remember my 1st job at a Pep Boys. How can you expect them to be knowledgeable about knives, tools,all the other junk in the store, be great salesmen, all for $6 an hour? You're lucky they can sign their name with an X. I know I didn't give a flying sh!t about my former job. Values? Please. It's doing grunt work for a high school dropout, or other moron with a "business degree" from a community college, getting paid next to nothing. Nobody's going to have pride in their job doing something like that.

 

[not2sharp]

.... simply being comfortable with these uninformed and sometimes lazy employees is a big chunk of the problem.

vote with your dollars.

abe m.

We have voted; and, we want lower prices, even if it means that customer service takes a distant back seat. There are plenty of small family operated stores around with knowledgeable and attentive sales people; but, most of them fail because we would rather save a few bucks at the megamart.

Our priorities seem to run in this order:
1) Lower prices
2) Longer store hours
3) Faster checkouts/delivery
4) Better Parking/facilities
5) Customer Service
6) Broader Inventories (full lines, spare parts, more accessories, more
variety, better grades of product)

The days of the professional retail sales clerk (remember those Sears refrigerator Sales Clerks from 40 years ago) are long gone. A few years back people were betting that the whole brick and mortar store format was on the way out, and soon to be replaced by the internet.

n2s

 

[allyourblood]

We have voted; and, we want lower prices, even if it means that customer service takes a distant back seat. There are plenty of small family operated stores around with knowledgeable and attentive sales people; but, most of them fail because we would rather save a few bucks at the megamart...

...The days of the professional retail sales clerk (remember those Sears refrigerator Sales Clerks from 40 years ago) are long gone. A few years back people were betting that the whole brick and mortar store format was on the way out, and soon to be replaced by the internet.

ahh.... someone who understands. this is exactly my point.

abe

 

[Lone Hunter]

Well 15 years ago when I worked as a dockworker in a WAREhouse,I was making 35k,with full medical and a good retirement plan.I would figure the guys make about 50k or more today.If a clerk in a chain store can do better thats pretty good.

And my local hardware store has a great Case selection as the owner is a collector.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Nobody's going to have pride in their job doing something like that.

Taking pride in the job has nothing to do with the job. It has everything to do with the worker.

 

[allyourblood]

i worked at Toys R Us for 5 years (3 as a sales person, 2 as mgmt.), on the sales floor. there, you're constantly bombarded with screaming/crying/puking/whining kids, and their irate parents. it is a thankless job, and at the sales person level, doesn't pay much. i loved this job. i came to work happy and willing to assist customers in finding just what they wanted.

i was trained to lead a guest to the product they were looking for, and walk away only when they were satisfied. i would offer as much knowledge as i had about any given product. this is not an unrealistic goal and no extra money was paid for this type of service. it's just the right way to do things. however, this has become rare in many of today's retail chains, and if you're okay with that, then by all means, go nuts. shop wherever you like.

what you get out of your job is up to you and nobody else. sorry for the OTP.

abe

 

[silenthunterstudios]

It surprises me that people are astonished that they would pay MSRP on a knife outside of eBay or an online dealer, the store front has to pay for overhead etc, and that person walking in off the street might not have internet access and might think that the knife in front of them has a good price on it. I've heard it said, save money by counting dollars, lose money by counting pennies. As for knives, I used to work at a 24 hr Wal Mart as a manager, and if you knew even the slightest about your area, you'd get promoted. Well, I knew quite a bit, and wanted to either work in sporting goods or automotive, as a manager. That didn't happen, but at least the associates knew what they were doing in SG and auto, they were the only ones other than myself and a couple of managers. The only good knife display I've seen outside of a knife store was in a Sears hardware store, a huge display set up front, maybe 3 ft across, showcasing Kershaw, Case, Buck, Schrade, Spyderco and some Chinese junkers. The prices were good, but I didn't have any money that day, and damned if they didn't shut down the store the next time I passed by . Some sporting goods stores, like Dicks, have some selection, but not much. Price wise, they suck. Capitalism gives you the opportunity to go down the street and get the better price, consumers have to put up with the hassle of finding that deal, and retailers have to put up with the consumer hassling them over the price, fair as that. As for retailers caring about knives, the average suburbanite does not use a knife that often outside of their kitchen! Except for collectors and users like those on this board, there is not a big market for knives, which I wish would change. A large part of the reason that retailers don't know anything about knives is because no one taught them. Do you want to waste time explaining the liner lock to someone who doesn't really care? Well, if you want to educate the masses, they don't want it! Thank God for the internet, so that I can get the good deals. I am missing the joy of handling a knife before I buy it in a physical store setting, though...