Hatchet vs. Big ol' knife

[the possum]

Ebbtide-
Do an advanced search under my username for "balance", and you'll find a bit of reading. Dynamic balance basically sums up a bunch of characteristics that really affect how a blade handles and performs. Moment of inertia and the rotational centers or impact nodes are two of the biggest components. An impact node is not necessarily the spot of lowest vibration/shock, but this is one of the side benefits. As Cliff mentioned, there are a whole host of valuable properties that come along with proper balance. And the differences can be night & day.

 

[the possum]

A hatchet will lend itself to more versatility.

Halcon, I simply have not seen it. The hatchets I've tried making a habit of carrying simply did not offer the same amount of usefulness for the tasks I tended to do. They have always seemed far more specialized than a long blade to me, despite the stuff you've pointed out.

 

[ras]

You can throw me in the small fixed blade and hatchet column. I have a couple large blade and they're a PITA to carry. The small Dozier fixed blade just left of my belt buckle is much more practical for small stuff and the hatchet chops better. Besides, those are much more likely to be with me, rather than left in my truck or back at camp.

As for hatchets vs axes, I have the GB Wildlife hatchet the Small Forest Axe (SFA) and the Scandinavian; I don't have a GB mini. I'll take the Scandinavian given the option. The pure cutting power of the Scan makes most cutting chores easier and less taxing. It's a control/power thing. Hatchets are single-hand tools. The Scan allows two hands which brings in more power and control. You can always choke up on the Scan to do smaller jobs one-handed. The SFA is a compromise, easier to use with one hand, but not as easy to use with two. There are times I'd leave both of those and simply go to a 24" double bit, very nice and well balanced. YMMV, different strokes.

 

[Halcon]

Halcon, I simply have not seen it. The hatchets I've tried making a habit of carrying simply did not offer the same amount of usefulness for the tasks I tended to do

You said it yourself, the tasks you tended to do. Remember, I use to carry a big knife and was more than happy with it's performance, for what I used it. I realized there were other things I did, at times, where a rock is what I used. I went like this all the time, using a rock was the norm... no big deal.

In order to better prepare myself for a wider range of situations, I analyzed for a longtime what other things I might need in a survival/E&E/bugout situation. A hatchet proved way more utilitarian than a big knife. Sure , I could carry a big knife as well, but why carry the extra weight. As it is, my hatchet weighs less when compared to a lot of big knives. And, like Knifetester pointed out, I also carry a smaller fixed blade with a thinner profile for kitchen work.

Alan

 

[Halcon]

Thankyou, you sound like the voice of experience!

hardly!

Alan

 

[Cliff Stamp]

For cutting boughs, the best tool for me is a golok class blade, especially the Valiant goloks, but the Martindale golok is OK, though I also will pick up a jungle knife eventually.

Yeah the Valiants basically have an optimal grind as bought whereas the Martindale is more of a rough tool. I have seen some handle/hardening problems with the Valiants but Jim Aston has had good experience with a lot of them and as far as I can tell customer service is solid. I'd like them to extend the hardening region but there are problems with doing that with the way they harden, you would need to switch to quench+tempering.

A really don't like a bowie knife for this type work, they are generally too thick and not long enough.

Yeah most of them are overly thick. I have done a lot of serious impacts and it is really difficult to damage an edge which is 0.030" thick but yet some of the bowies are twice that which is only necessary if you are impacting them through thickmetals (1/8"+ plate). Going custom though solves any issues of geomtry and balance. Of course this is about 5-10x the cost of a Bruks axe. Too bad guys like Cashen won't crank out a large bowie for the same price the guys in the Bruks shop will give you an axe.

Got distracted too many times while using it.

Have you tried a leather underwrap.

I have used the poll of my hatchet for pounding many times, works fine, but I would never pound rock or metal with it, as I would worry about deforming the eye.

I gave a Wettering small hatchet to a carpenter years ago and it does get used for heavy hammering as I clean up the poll from time to time, the eye is still find though. I had to add a steep secondary bevel to keep the edge in decent shape from all the nail cutting. The main concern is avoiding hitting the poll with a large axe or maul.

...perhaps you can enligthen us all and tell us how we can reshape a knife to make it a better hammer than the hatchet.

The blade is actually again more versatile for impacts because it has multiple impact points. For example using the spine as an impact surface generates a lot of pressure so it is useful as a stun point for large fish whereas a axe poll does nothing unless you want to actually squash the skull. It actually has the ability to be a lot more precise such as shaping a nail into a hook is a lot easier when the impacts are only 1/8-1/4" wide on the spine of the knife vs the 1"+ impact of the poll. The flats work well for crushing/grinding type impacts where often you are breaking up vegetation where you don't want heavy impact but just a wide surface.

The main advantage of the hammer is that the wide poll makes it nicer to hammer nails because it doesn't require a lot of precision, and you can get the same effect with a blade if you use a strike plate which is basic carpentry. It also eliminates the tendancy of the rather narrow spine to split wooden pegs or excessively deform soft targets due to the high pressure. You can use the primary for this as long as it isn't radically convex. The real issue is getting the desired balance points so as to give you the required power. This is where issues such as the static/dynamic balance are important.

I am talking about driving tent snakes, smashing car windows, lifting debris away, etc.

You can easily do all of that with the knife. As for lifting debris are you actually using your hatchet as some kind of shovel/hoe and digging with the heel. If those really are your primary goals then it would seem you would prefer a spike poll and just hammer with the side of the eye. What is wrong with simply using the knife to craft a stout cudgel and/or walking stick and using these are both impact tools. If I have to break off a bunch of dead limbs from a tree this is what I do even if I have an axe because I am not going to risk banging the handle of the axe into the hardened limbs and it takes literally seconds to fashion a small and stout club.

-Cliff

 

[the possum]

You said it yourself, the tasks you tended to do.

Well, yeah. I don't see the sense in carrying tools for stuff I don't do.

In order to better prepare myself for a wider range of situations, I analyzed for a longtime what other things I might need in a survival/E&E/bugout situation.

And this may be part of our disagreement. I am not talking about escape & evasion, or a "bug out", as I said earlier. I can indeed envision lots of scenarios where a hatchet would be very handy for a bug out through/out of a city or something.

 

[Halcon]

Well, yeah. I don't see the sense in carrying tools for stuff I don't do.




And this may be part of our disagreement. I am not talking about escape & evasion, or a "bug out", as I said earlier. I can indeed envision lots of scenarios where a hatchet would be very handy for a bug out through/out of a city or something.

that's my point. I can't forcast everything that will happen. I may be in an office building and SHTF. A hatchet is going to prove more useful (breaking down locked doors etc). once I get into the wildernes, I may use it to chop logs, limb a tree etc. Then again, I may not need to do any of that

the point was. One tool, completely different set of circumstances and needs. Sure the chopper could probably limb a tree faster than a hatchet, I'm not arguing that. Can it, however, out perform the hatchet in other areas that may not need an edge so much?

 

[Tikirocker]

hardly!

Alan

Don't forget to pack a sense of humour into your BOB mate ... or stow one at a cache waypoint at the very least.

 

[Ebbtide]

Why thanks Possum.
I read the majority of what posted in this forum as well as, testing, toolshead and general.

I'm still not getting it.
Maybe I'm looking for a cut and dried answer similar to defining a static balance point.
I've read about impact nodes and rotational axis, but from what I've read it appears that it is more of a 'feel' thing than one that is literally measurable.

So instead of sending this thread further off on a tangent maybe someone will start another on the topic.
If I'm not getting it...I wouldn't be surprised if there are others in the same boat.

 

[Tikirocker]

You can easily do all of that with the knife. As for lifting debris are you actually using your hatchet as some kind of shovel/hoe and digging with the heel. If those really are your primary goals then it would seem you would prefer a spike poll and just hammer with the side of the eye. What is wrong with simply using the knife to craft a stout cudgel and/or walking stick and using these are both impact tools. If I have to break off a bunch of dead limbs from a tree this is what I do even if I have an axe because I am not going to risk banging the handle of the axe into the hardened limbs and it takes literally seconds to fashion a small and stout club.

-Cliff

I agree with all of the above ... I mean any of the those things listed can be done with OTHER found objects in the field anyway. If needs be you can smash a car window with your elbow with a jacket wrapped around it for protection and the right application of force - let alone the butt of a big knife well placed. Tent stakes can be driven with a rock ... or a bit of wood lying on the ground - you can certainly do it with the butt of the right knife - and lifting debris can be done with any number of things including your own hands.

This idea that only a hatchet or axe can perform these tasks is well ... a bit one eyed.

 

[Halcon]

The blade is actually again more versatile for impacts because it has multiple impact points. For example using the spine as an impact surface generates a lot of pressure so it is useful as a stun point for large fish whereas a axe poll does nothing unless you want to actually squash the skull.

Gee Cliff, why stun it when you cant just cut off it's head, I can do that with a hatchet

It actually has the ability to be a lot more precise such as shaping a nail into a hook is a lot easier when the impacts are only 1/8-1/4" wide on the spine of the knife vs the 1"+ impact of the poll.

wrong Cliff. Last I checked, a hatchet had those same impact points, or have you never looked down the head of a hatchet.

The flats work well for crushing/grinding type impacts where often you are breaking up vegetation where you don't want heavy impact but just a wide surface.

please elaborate

The main advantage of the hammer is that the wide poll makes it nicer to hammer nails because it doesn't require a lot of precision, and you can get the same effect with a blade if you use a strike plate which is basic carpentry.

Again, with a hatchet one less thing to make. But that's not all! I can also effectivly use more force on a strike plate.

It also eliminates the tendancy of the rather narrow spine to split wooden pegs or excessively deform soft targets due to the high pressure. You can use the primary for this as long as it isn't radically convex. The real issue is getting the desired balance points so as to give you the required power. This is where issues such as the static/dynamic balance are important.

Again more:jerkit: :jerkit: :jerkit:

You can easily do all of that with the knife. As for lifting debris are you actually using your hatchet as some kind of shovel/hoe and digging with the heel. If those really are your primary goals then it would seem you would prefer a spike poll and just hammer with the side of the eye.

No Cliff those aren't primary goals. these are just other things a hatchet can do better, without resorting to having cut the appropriate limb. Efficiancy!

I may need to do it one time... Hardly calls for the need to craft something

What is wrong with simply using the knife to craft a stout cudgel and/or walking stick and using these are both impact tools. If I have to break off a bunch of dead limbs from a tree this is what I do even if I have an axe because I am not going to risk banging the handle of the axe into the hardened limbs and it takes literally seconds to fashion a small and stout club.
-Cliff

Again, why craft it if you don't have to. Efficiancy! you should really learn the meaning of the word

Cliff, I expected a response with more substance, I am a little dissapointed.

Alan

 

[Ebbtide]

Just a note from personal experience.
When hammering with the butt of a knife, in my case AFSK, one word of caution...OK... three words:

Do Not Miss.

It hurts.
BTDT.
No room for error.

And in a RLSS when one is cold, tired, wet and or hungry the chance of a bad hit goes way up.

 

[the possum]

Ebbtide-
In the thread in the testing forum about how I modified my khukri, I described how to measure the point(s), and even a video clip of it. Also read the article on the ARMA site that Cliff linked to from there. The article describes it in much more detail; it's where I first heard of this & started experimenting with it.

I try bringing a bit of attention to this subject whenever it comes up, as these ideas have had a revolutionary impact on the way I view knife design. But others seldom seem interested, so I don't bother going into a lot of details explaining everything up front. If you want to know about it, it will require active thought and research on your part; I can't just put knowledge into anybody's head. Feel free to email me about it if you'd like as well.

-the possum

 

[canranger]

Not much fun in that. I cut 10-15 truckloads of wood each year with an axe, currently an Iltis. .

-Cliff

Kind of makes you wonder where he finds the time to destroy knives and podst so much on this forum.

Cliff noticed on the previous thread you didn't show back up to give general apologies. Everyone else did.

A

 

[Halcon]

Don't forget to pack a sense of humour into your BOB mate ... or stow one at a cache waypoint at the very least.

Gee Tiki, if you had half the humor that god gave a goat, I might have actually cracked a grin.

This idea that only a hatchet or axe can perform these tasks is well ... a bit one eyed.

I expect nothing less from a guy who considers a 50 pound ruck ultralight.

I never said a hatchet or an axe were the only way to perform these tasks. Perhaps you should reread.

 

[Ebbtide]

Ebbtide-
If you want to know about it, it will require active thought and research on your part; I can't just put knowledge into anybody's head. Feel free to email me about it if you'd like as well.

-the possum

No need to get snippy.
I thought I was asking a legitimate question in a polite manner.
I'm capable of active thought and don't expect anyone to put the knowledge in my head.
As I said, if I don't get it there are probably others that don't as well.
(being an art major aside), and maybe they don't want to admit a lack of understanding.

I'll go check the kukri thread, and if I'm still dynamically unbalanced I'll shoot you an email.

 

[Tikirocker]

Gee Tiki, if you had half the humor that god gave a goat, I might have actually cracked a grin.

I expect nothing less from a guy who considers a 50 pound ruck ultralight.

I never said a hatchet or an axe were the only way to perform these tasks. Perhaps you should reread.

Oh dear ... we have a tantrum. :yawn:

You consider my Alice heavy but compared to what? The point and issue is that it is not heavy for me and I have made my reasons for choosing such a pack quite clear. I compensate my content perfectly without sufferance. When you've actually done 800 plus miles on foot across the French Pyrennese and northern Spain, then you might be better qualified to tell me what pack might work for you ... but not for me eh mate.

But sure ... continue to justifiy your glib observations and bolster that newfound predjudice based soley on my choice of pack - and wait! - your total lack of experience with it. Don't worry, nobody is going to take your axe away ...

PS - Love the straw man arguments you come up with ... I never said my pack was Ultralight - you did! hilarious stuff ...

 

[pict]

Since this is turning into the mother of all wandering threads I figured I'd jump in a day late and a dollar short.

I'm a confirmed machete user. I also live 80% of my life in Central Brazil. Here a hatchet would be dead weight. Not that we don't have things that a hatchet cuts nicely, its just that we have ALOT of stuff that a hatchet cuts very poorly. As soon as you get off trail you are into vines, weeds, thickets of bamboo, head high grasses, etc. The machete is a mode of transportation that the hatchet will never be.

During the 20% of my life that I'm in the eastern woodlands of PA the hatchet makes alot of sense. When I am there I carry... a 12 inch Ontario machete. Why? It's because I spend 80% of my life in Central Brazil and I have grown accustomed to doing everything with a machete.

Small fixed blades are far more useful as knives than the big knives ever will be. Hatchets and machetes are more useful for chopping than the big knives in my experience.

If you really want to make your life easier in the wilderness get a folding pruning saw. There is no romance in a saw and no slick marketing to make you feel like you
are now part of an elite team of true-life action-adventure heroes. Saws cut wood, nice and straight, and don't batter your joints. They are also safer from a "swing and a miss" standpoint and in a real survival situation that could be important. Folding pruning saws are also easier to use right or left handed than any chopper you have to swing. (I'm writing this with a broken right hand, BTW. How good is your chopping whatever once your strong hand is mangled?)

As far as cutting down pack weight, get real. I don't care what you put in your pack if you have to end the list with... "and a ten pound blob of lard." I have to fight to keep that ten pound blob of lard out of my pack. Right now I am 32 pounds under my lifetime-high weight. Thirty-two pounds is alot of gear. If we're going to quibble about grams lets start trimming grams of fat FIRST.

On a global forum like this there is not going to be a single tool or combination that covers all of the climate zones and vegitation types represented here. Wha tis best for you very well could be nearly useless somewhere else.

The big knife has a function that I, down here in the developing world, appreciate. My BK-7 looks really scary on my belt. Trust me, off the beaten track in Brazil it pays to look a little bit dangerous.

If I had to pick the tools I find most useful in the bush here they would be the Tramontina Machete, a Mora of one type or another, and folding saw. My total investment for these three is about $30 and I doubt you will convince me I have to spend more than that. I still carry my BK-7 as it is also my PSK and, here's the kicker... I like it, cause I am just a little bit dangerous . Mac

 

[canranger]

Ok I did some research myself and the stats show that in the last 3 days Cliff has posted 49 times on Blade not to mention all the other forums hew posts on so it would require time to read replies and visit all the other forums as well not to mention quoting and responding.

My conclusions are thus so far.

(A) he can't possibly have the time to do all the stuff he says he does ( unles thats all he does with his life)
(B) How can someone have some much to say and be so wrong all the time

He is even in threads where he has no personal investment if this is concidered a personal attack well then take it how you would like.

But I for one would like to be able to share and learn on her with out the quote miester coming in and taking everything out of context then misinfornming or misunderstanding what peole have said.

Lets call it what it is annoying folks and misinformative which results in false expectations most of the time and gradually the loss of some real cutting tools or the need of companies to send warnings with their knives "Not for chopping"

Abe