Hatchet vs. Big ol' knife

[knifetester]

1. I will never buy a knife and regrind it, no one but a knife freak does that kind of stuff. I buy it and use it, if it is not right I get rid of it. Most of the great performance talked about comes from highly altered and maintained big choppers. My poor forest axe gets a quick filing every so often and still performs great.

I agree with the Possum, that is a very strange point of view to my way of thinking. But to each their own I guess.

If you ever want to get rid of some of those "defective" knives cheap, shoot me an email. I guess I am knife freak enough to grind them

 

[plattj1]

You are of course welcome to do as you please, but there's no need to call someone who actually cares to put a proper cutting edge on their blade a "freak". 99% of factory knives out there come with horrible edges, and it's common to gain several hundred percent more cutting ability with only 20 minutes of work. Setting the proper bevels also means the edge will be much easier to maintain, not worse.

I meant it as an acronym for enthusiast. Poor choice of words. The rest is just my honest opinion.

It is only 20 minutes work if you have the right tools and know what you are doing. If you are not a knife 'enthusiast' it is more likely a lot of time wasted only to screw up what was a decent blade.

YMMV

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I have used Siegles, Ferhmans, Beckers, Cold Steel, Busses, Simonich, etc.. No I have not reground edges.

Those are all tacticals and it is no surprise you have found they didn't work as well as a decent wood working hatchet. This has nothing to do with long blade vs axe it is simply tactical vs wood craft. You would find the exact same thing in the opposite direction if you compared the tactical tomahawks vs bowies from guys like Kirk, Cashen, etc. . Had you reground the edges or explored proper balance your perspective would be different. Most of those makers will actually do this for you if you ask and note where the performance is lacking and you need it improved.

Most of the great performance talked about comes from highly altered and maintained big choppers.

The main alteration is simply applying an edge relief which is maybe 10-15 minutes work manually with an x-coarse stone. Maintaining them is just keeping them sharp which is necessary on any knife. The knives can usually be improved by altering the balance but this requires more extensive grinding as well as either drilling/welding. You can of course just get a custom made to these specifications and there are production knives which are close to ideal anyway such as the Valiant Goloks.

-Cliff

 

[Tikirocker]

"Military gear is generally designed to do the job efficiently and be sturdy and reliable, but the job a piece of gear is designed for may be very different that what an ordinary person might use it for. Also, govts may have other design criteria that have nothing to do with utility, such as ease of manufacturing and cost savings."

Don't think, for a second that Commercial Producers don't use the same criteria. remember, they are in business to make money FIRST and FOREMOST. Ease of manufacturing and Cost Savings are the primary concerns of any business. That goes for knives, hatchets, packs, and titanium encrusted widgets.

The military has a final gross weight they MUST adhere to. Everything is designed to that weight. The lgihter the other gear, the more beans and bullets the soldier can carry. So the military is very concerned with "Pack to Weight Carrying" Ratio. (I just made up that term, but you guys know what I mean).

Carry is not "hold". Carry is comfort, durability, useability and ability to take beating all rolled into one. I've used commercial packs, military packs, and even packs I've fashioned from sticks and a shirt with the neck tied closed.
They all have their merits, although the only positive I can give the "Shirt and stick" pack is that it was better than nothing, and even that was debatable.

It was nice to veer a bit during this thread, but, saving a pound to carry another pound is a matter of personal decision making. If our mate Tikirocker shed his Alice pack, and got a 7lb pack, I'd bet he still wouldn't hitch on even a 12 oz. hatchet, though he would have the "bandwidth" to do so.
He would take the weight reduction as a savings, and put it in "the bank",
or already has another need, a necessity, a deficit he has discovered previously, to fit into that bandwidth he created. Well that' my guess, not speaking for him, but following what he has been conveying.
The ex-hiker in me hasn't died.

But he could entertain bringing along that single Foster's Lager.

We should certainly start a Pack thread, and go over all of this and more, it's good stuff.

This is a great thread.

Once again Skunk you read me loud and clear and I can only agree with your considered response - we are certainly on the same page most likely due to our distance hiking experiences. Let's hear a bit more about your own choices in gear, pack and blades!

 

[plattj1]

I agree with the Possum, that is a very strange point of view to my way of thinking. But to each their own I guess.

Just out of curiosity, what is strange about expecting an expensive product to come from it's maker properly finished?

I can't imagine that my edge grinding skills as an ordinary consumer would be considered to be above that of a custom knife maker. Perhaps if I were someone like Cliff, with years of experience altering edged tools to perform the way I prefer that would be reasonable, but as an ordinary joe just looking for a chopper I believe that a light axe and a saw are probably safer and better choices. Which is all I really said.

 

[runningboar]

Once again Skunk you read me loud and clear and I can only agree with your considered response - we are certainly on the same page most likely due to our distance hiking experiences. Let's hear a bit more about your own choices in gear, pack and blades!

OK I realize how far this thread has/is drifting, which is fine by me it is making for some great reading, but are we talking about hiking, or bugging out and surviving for long periods of time off what we have in our pack. Because in my way of thinking it is two entirely different situations, requiring entirely different tools and mind sets. Chris

 

[Tikirocker]

OK I realize how far this thread has/is drifting, which is fine by me it is making for some great reading, but are we talking about hiking, or bugging out and surviving for long periods of time off what we have in our pack. Because in my way of thinking it is two entirely different situations, requiring entirely different tools and mind sets. Chris

Chris,

You are right mate, there IS a difference but as I said earlier my general hiking or leisurely wilderness pack is just a cut down version of my real bug out pack - ya never know when the S is going to HTF. As Skunk has rightly assessed I still wouldn't take a hatchet or axe out bush or into a wilderness hike with me - there's simply no need.

 

[hollowdweller]

I almost always reprofile stuff, or at least polish the edge.

Of the production stuff I think GB hatchets and BRKT knives come with the best factory edges of almost any.

 

[Halcon]

No cliff, my opinion would not be differrent. I did say etc. I named those to benefit readers because those are common names. I have used more esoteric blades as well, even custom one offs. I have used reground blades as well, not reground by me but by prominent knife makers.

I realize there is more speed with a knife, no argument there.

perhaps you need to re-read what I wrote, you seemed to have completely missed the point. All you seemed to be concerned with is the edge. I am concerend with utilitarian abilities. If I wanted speed and edge I would carry a sword. Alas that is not my point.

Alan

 

[Tikirocker]

Ok gents - for those that wish to share their opinions of a chosen bug out backpack I started a thread for it here --->http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4075807#post4075807

Please attend and make it as infomrative there as you have done here.

 

[knifetester]

In answer to the question at issue, I like both big baldes and hatches, they both have their palce. I find limbing much easier with a golok class blade, same for clearing saplings, scrub and the like.

Felling wood of any substantial size, I prefer an axe.

Combined with a knife and a saw, an axe is very handy in the woods.

If I lived in an area with much softer vegation, ie jungle, A machete would obviously be the better choice.

Which is better--depends what you want to use it for.

KNowledge and skill are the real keys IMHO. . . (not that I have either )

 

[Outdoors]

That is a nice set of tools, KT.
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Pat

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Just out of curiosity, what is strange about expecting an expensive product to come from it's maker properly finished?

Most production blades tend to be geared towards more utility use than wood craft and are thus several times thicker/obtuse than they need to be for wood craft. They are properly finished just not for what you want to do. Similar to the axes found in hardware stores, they are made for things like sod/root cutting, not actually felling wood. You don't want to judge what an axe can do from those any more than what a long blade can do from using the Becker Brute.

I can't imagine that my edge grinding skills as an ordinary consumer would be considered to be above that of a custom knife maker.

It doesn't take a high amount of skill to reduce the edge angle on a knife and as I said there are lots of knives which are so designed. The majority of the small shop production and all custom makers will do such modifications for you.

I have used more esoteric blades as well, even custom one offs. I have used reground blades as well, not reground by me but by prominent knife makers.

Which ones. Did you specify how the knife was to be used. Did you discuss the performance with the makers afer you were not satisfied and see if they could correct it. Where were the static/dynamic balance points and how was the knife reground.

All you seemed to be concerned with is the edge.

Hardly. The edge is however the main point of contention as most other aspects are actually close to optimal. If you take something like a Battle Mistress and compare it to a parang for example, the length, weight, thickness, width, etc., are all near identical. The only real difference is the edge geometry.

By altering the edge, even crudely, you can increase the performance by 50-100%. Pure optomization for individual users will make an even bigger difference. As I noted, the next step is too adjust the balance points but this requires a significant investment of skill/effort as in most cases you have to rehandle the blade, regrind the primary, etc. .

Of course if you are paying custom prices you just order the knife accordingly you don't do all these modifications yourself.

If I lived in an area with much softer vegation, ie jungle, A machete would obviously be the better choice.

Several years back in a conversation with a Malyasian knifemaker I asked him about parangs and during the discussion he remarked that they were used for felling trees as well. This struck me as really odd and I always wanted to go into the woods and get the guy to use a parang and a felling axe and watch what happened. A lot of the times I think it is just dependent on the local maker who decides he likes to make parangs more than axes and thus everyone is used to one and not the other. By the way, how is the head alignment on that axe if you sight down the handle.

-Cliff

 

[Tikirocker]

If I had a choice in the wilderness and felt it not to be overkill for a given trip I'd certainly favour one of these ...

 

[Outdoors]

Nice!

Pat

 

[plattj1]

In answer to the question at issue, I like both big baldes and hatches, they both have their palce. I find limbing much easier with a golok class blade, same for clearing saplings, scrub and the like.

Felling wood of any substantial size, I prefer an axe.

Combined with a knife and a saw, an axe is very handy in the woods.

If I lived in an area with much softer vegation, ie jungle, A machete would obviously be the better choice.

Which is better--depends what you want to use it for.

KNowledge and skill are the real keys IMHO. . . (not that I have either )

I love your knife....

By the way, we pretty much said the same things, no arguement here.

>>>>>>>>>>
"I think it is all kind of a moot point anyway. If you have to you can skin and quarter game with a sharp hatchet. If you have to you can split firewood with a knife. It is all about what you prefer to work with and what you do the most. I prefer a hatchet, small knife and a folding saw. If I were in the jungle I am sure I would change my mind pretty quickly."
>>>>>>>>>>

 

[Tikirocker]

Or most likely one of these ... issued to Australian and British troops.

 

[plattj1]

Nice thread!

 

[perksy]

Tiki, thats exactly the machete I use. :thumbup:

I use a Large modified US Alice pack, its tough, has accesable pouches, can carry small or large loads and the frame offers a lot of ventilation. I have done many kilometers with this pack and love it.

My blade choice (current) is a Busse Mud Razor (7" blade) and a LEATHERMAN Pst 2. I may also add my BRK&T Fox River and if I think I will need it either a Martindale golok or possibly a Fiskers Sport axe.

P.S My alice pack is lighter, more versitile, can hold more and is a million times more comfortable than my issue POS..

 

[Halcon]

Cliff you crack me up! you say edge is hardly all you're interested, but then you go right back to it. not to mention balance points and geometry.

once again so you understand, it is about utilitarian needs.

Why don't you impress me and prove to me, from a utilitarian stand point, how a knife will out do a hatchet. everything from hammering to breaking through ice. so far, from what I can see, the hatchet can do more than just hack limbs. If you like I can go re roof your house with my hatchet. oh I'm sorry, I forgot your knife can do that better. so never mind.