Hatchet vs. Big ol' knife

[Tikirocker]

Tiki, thats exactly the machete I use. :thumbup:

I use a Large modified US Alice pack, its tough, has accesable pouches, can carry small or large loads and the frame offers a lot of ventilation. I have done many kilometers with this pack and love it.

My blade choice (current) is a Busse Mud Razor (7" blade) and a LEATHERMAN Pst 2. I may also add my BRK&T Fox River and if I think I will need it either a Martindale golok or possibly a Fiskers Sport axe.

P.S My alice pack is lighter, more versitile, can hold more and is a million times more comfortable than my issue POS..

Hey mate!

yeah, that's the one from Martindale that I'll be buying from AKC mail order - they look the bizness! Finally having a chinwag with Clive by the way and got your e-mail - have I replied to you yet? Maybe not yet - I'm off to the Sydney gunshow in a 20 mins, should be alot of fun.

I'll be definately wanting to chat about custom packs - by the way have you got any pics of your pack? If you so check out my other thread on Bug Out Packs and post some of your personal info and preferences there. :thumbup:

I'll reply to your mail later when I get back from the show.

Best, Simon.

 

[the possum]

Halcon, it seems that hammering is important to you. Not just hammering, but also breaking, and other kinds of hammering, including actual literal hammering. Haven't you ever heard the expression that "When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail,"? Utilitarian needs, eh? Yes, re-roofing the shingles on my house is certainly something I'd do in the wilderness on a regular basis, much like the guy earlier who needed to break car windows.

I'm not knocking your choice, since it sounds like you do that sort of thing... a lot. I generally find a need for cutting more than smashing, and when I do, I can make do with some other heavy object. I could also just pick up a rock, or cut a big stick to pound with. The indians even came up with a super clever device combining the two, by tying the rock on the end of the stick.

I won't try to change your mind, but will add that based on the knives you listed, I'm also not surprised you were left unimpressed with their utility for woodcraft.

 

[SkunkWerX]

I own, geez, at least 5 hatchets and/or hand axes. I have done cedar shake roofing jobs, split kindling, and then some. In order to split wood, you typically need some cut logs. I don't run across too many of them in the wilderness. more than a few hundred yards and my Stihl 250 isn't being carried in. Neither are my larger axes.

Tiki, I don't have many photos handy, but this is one of my knives, a Becker Brute. I've grown fond of it recently, it's newer, getting ny attention and my other kives are jealous.
http://usera.imagecave.com/skunkwerx/BK1fullrig.jpg
http://usera.imagecave.com/skunkwerx/BK1wMicarta.jpg

I proceeded, as Cliff was explaining, and changed the edge geometry a bit, gave it a good sharpening and it does fine for both slicing and chopping. Oh, and the wide flat spot on the spine can act as a hammer, or a nice place to "baton" the blade into some meaty wood. (oh no I used the baton word! drat!)
Smash a window? ....in a heartbeat.

Behind the sheath is about a 10" section of a bowsaw blade. Only the blade. With holes drilled at both ends. If I really must do some serious sawing, I'll use some paracord, some decent tree limbs and fabricate a bow saw...or more aptly named, a "frame saw". Most camp wood is "harvested" by carrying or dragging, not felling and sawing. I'd typically go to sawing if i was doing some actual woodwork, needing to square-off ends or rip some straight pieces. The only thing I've ever done with green wood is woodwork, or let it dry a season for firewood.

My Machete is a standard Ontario, the milspec style, about 20 years old, maybe more. Easy to sharpen and can chop and slash like no tomorrow.

If I get a chance, I will do a quick show and tell. In the same wood, I will take one swipe with my machete and one chop with my hatchet, I'll make sure both are appropriately sharp for their use. I can tell you the Machete will slice farther into the wood, and continue to throw off bigger chips than my hatchet. When cutting firewood the machete is great for limbing anything under 2 inches. Anything over 2" gets the Stihl treatment.

I do use a hatchet all winter, for a specific purpose. I grab a nice stout log, and place it near my back door. The hatchet stays there all winter by the back door.
I split kindling for the woodstove with it. All winter. Can't beat it for reducing already split Oak into smaller pieces for the beginnings of a nights worth of heat.
Which reminds me, I have logs out in the woods I have to gather and split, it's getting colder here in the Northern hemisphere. I'll be in the woods tomorrow, provided the rain subsides.

 

[Ebbtide]

Please define dynamic balance point and how to find/measure it.

 

[Halcon]

Posumm, I am trying to give examples. a hatchet will lend itself to more versatility. Remember, it all started with big chopper versus hatchet and smaller fixed knife.

Somewhere along the line, the bugout bag got brought into the mix by Tiki. Well last I figured, bugout can mean bugging out in the city, wilderness, desert, etc. A hatchet will offer more versatility in a wider variety of situations. Will it beat a big chopper in all situations? NO! It will, however, offer a wider range of usage.

Alan

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Please define dynamic balance point and how to find/measure it.

It is the point along the blade which has the same period of rotation as a point mass so positioned, this is one of the easiest ways to measure it. In use this translates to a number of things such as the point of minimal vibration during impact and precision of control. It also has a severe influence on the ability to rotate the blade in hand and thus bring power into the cut as well as manipulate the blade in motion. Hence the term dynamic (moving) vs static (stationary) balance. The static balance point is the center of mass which is what the vast majority of people talk about which actually isn't what is critical when you are rotating a blade.

... a Becker Brute.

I like that general shape. I found the handles a little slick on the Beckers I have used and don't like the holes. How do you find the grip.

Posumm, I am trying to give examples. a hatchet will lend itself to more versatility. Remember, it all started with big chopper versus hatchet and smaller fixed knife.

The problem is that all your examples are of long blades not optomized for wood craft so your arguement is severely biased. It would be like complaining that a type of boot was unfit for survival because all the pairs you had tried were uncomfortable and then you reveal you constantly chose the wrong size.

A hatchet will offer more versatility in a wider variety of situations.

A hatchet is more focused as it is optomized for one task and as noted has the same dynamic/static balance points. A long blade has a longer edge with varying geometry due to taper and the ability to impact both with maximum inertia or maxium speed. This is the defination of versatility.

A blade also has a much lower torque disadvantge when cutting and it much more precise in cuts due to the edge being closer to the hand. Cook talks about optomizing axe design on that principle but if you extend it logically you will end up with a long blade. The effect is basically proportional to the width which is usually 2:1 for hatchets vs long blades which makes hatchets twice as imprecise and as difficult to cut with.

The main advantage of axes is the ability to work in thick wood at now reduction in ability unlike a blade which will keep making a longer contact line as the wood gets thicker and thus the penetration drops. This reduces the ability to clear wood and thus you have to multiple notch which reduces efficiency. There are ways to compensate and some blades do it naturally (khukuris) but in general, if the wood is significantly wider than the bit of a axe then it is usually much more efficient to chop it with the axe than a long blade.

It is also of course even as much more efficient to just saw it which is why saws quickly replaced axes for felling which essentially turned axes into just clip removal tools until the power saws were invented which can cut on an angle just as easily as they do on a flat.

-Cliff

 

[Halcon]

again Cliff I am less than impressed with your reply. It is obvious you are doing everything in your power to ignore my view. Everytime you quote me, it is always about cutting ability, edge geometry, dynamic balance point, and what ever other rhetoric that has to do with edges.

No doubt what you are saying is true, I'm not arguing that. it is not a matter of just cutting 2-3 inch limbs... I know I am opening up myself with this by the way, so go ahead.

This debate is going to only end one way you have your opinion and I have mine. why don't you go shingle your roof with your knife and I'll fillet my fish with my hatchet
Alan

 

[beef]

Hi All,
I've really enjoyed reading this thread. It's rare to find a thread 9 pages long where people of differing oppinions are still polite in their arguments. Very refreshing!

 

[knifetester]

By the way, how is the head alignment on that axe if you sight down the handle.

-Cliff

Very slightly askew. Not perfect, but close. Nothing that effects functioning for me, but I am not sensitive enough to tell unless it is pretty glaring. Sloppy technique will ocve a lot of flaws in tools I guess. . .

Other GB Axes for alignment:
Small Forest and Mini

SFA

Carving Axe

The handle on my Wildlife is cracked and needs to be replaced. . .

I buy my axes from Daren Cutsforth and he is pretty good at selecting them for me.

More details on versatile use of axes, and overview of some GB products:
http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/cache/articles/ce1/cegb1b.htm

Not nearly enough information on the axes in use at what they were intended for, chopping or splitting oddly enough. . .

From the article linked:

The SFA has a 1 1/2 pound head with a 3 1/4" face mounted on a 19 inch hickory handle. If I could only own one axe, this would be it. In fact, the SFA offers such high levels of performance over such a broad range of tasks, that if I were limited to one edged tool for a north woods excursion in colder weather, this would be the one tool I'd take.

In actuality, I now prefer the Scandinavian of the SFA for most uses, mainly for reach issues. The SFA is still a heck of a camping tool though. . .

Check out Lee Reeves for some true custom quality axes (bits and handles).

 

[knifetester]

This debate is going to only end one way you have your opinion and I have mine. why don't you go shingle your roof with your knife and I'll fillet my fish with my hatchet
Alan

Personally, I would prefer to do the later job rather than the former. . .
If an axe is all you have, it can do quite well in food prep. . .

 

[perksy]

[u]USE What Works For You!!!!! Its All Good, We All Like Sharp Tools..[/u]

 

[Halcon]

knifetester, you just proved my point... thank you!

Alan

 

[Ebbtide]

Well thanx for the effort cliff.
I guess I forgot to tell you I was an Art Major.

It is the point along the blade which has the same period of rotation as a point mass so positioned, this is one of the easiest ways to measure it.

I was OK up until period of rotation, after that you lost me.
:dunno:

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Personally, I would prefer to do the later job rather than the former.

Yeah, as well generally the shingling I do in the woods uses boughs, bark and general debris and a long knife handles that well. I don't do much nailing, bags of shingles would be cool for building a shelter but I am certainly not going to hike with a few packs of them.

If an axe is all you have, it can do quite well in food prep.

Yeah, the Bruks/Wetterling are very fine at the edge, some times they need a little filing, but nothing serious. Usually a lot less than would be required on something like the Trailmaster which requires the entire edge to be basically cut in half.

Very slightly askew.

All three of mine are really skewed, both to the side and actually rotated. I can tell the difference easily if I compare them to something like a optomized-Fiskars which is dead-set even. But unless you really tune the other axe then usually the finer edge on the Bruks will swamp out the alignment issues.

The handle on my Wildlife is cracked and needs to be replaced.

How did it happen and can you repair it.

Check out Lee Reeves for some true custom quality axes (bits and handles).

What is his standard geometry and does he do customizations. They certainly look impressive. Have you ran one against a similar sized Bruks.

...it is always about cutting ability, edge geometry, dynamic balance point, and what ever other rhetoric that has to do with edges.

Dynamic balance has nothing to do with edges, it is how the knife handles. It effects the versatility of the blade. If the dynamic and static balance points are the same then the blade basically handles like an axe with a short grip. And yes, those other points are generally what I consider when I look at edged tools; how they cut, how they handle, and general scope of work.

-Cliff

 

[Halcon]

Yeah, as well generally the shingling I do in the woods uses boughs, bark and general debris and a long knife handles that well. I don't do much nailing, bags of shingles would be cool for building a shelter but I am certainly not going to hike with a few packs of them.

I expect nothing less than this response from you. In fact, I find it quite humorous.

Dynamic balance has nothing to do with edges, it is how the knife handles. It effects the versatility of the blade. If the dynamic and static balance points are the same then the blade basically handles like an axe with a short grip.

Yes, I know! I messed up and didn't break up the sentence correctly. Of course, if that is all you're going after, it would seemed you are backed into a corner and are looking for any angle to get out. So in order to make it clear, I will put it like this.

Since you seem to dodge my point entirely, perhaps you can enligthen us all and tell us how we can reshape a knife to make it a better hammer than the hatchet. It would seem to me, if we can use a hatchet as a kitchen knife to cut onions and tomatoes, etc., as was shown by knifetester, surely a knife can, efficiently, do the work of a hatchet. before you go on a cutting flury, I am talking about driving tent snakes, smashing car windows, lifting debris away, etc.

I await your response

Alan

 

[knifetester]

the shingling I do in the woods uses boughs, bark and general debris and a long knife handles that well.

For cutting boughs, the best tool for me is a golok class blade, especially the Valiant goloks, but the Martindale golok is OK, though I also will pick up a jungle knife eventually. This year I trimmed out a lot of evergreen trees around my house, tool of choice was a Tramotina Bolo (a replacement for the last one, this one actually has a decent HT-~on par with the Martindale). Cheap knife, something the tactical crowd would scoff at, but got the job done in fine fashion.

A really don't like a bowie knife for this type work, they are generally too thick and not long enough.

Re: Crack in WL

How did it happen and can you repair it.

Got distracted too many times while using it. I have whacked the handle off the chopping block numerous times, no doubt causing the wood to be stressed and weakened. The actual crack came when using the WL as a wedge with a baton, I hit the handle instead of the poll a couple times and crack. Beer and axe work are not mutually exclusive on our weekend camping trips.

Reeves:

What is his standard geometry and does he do customizations.

They are small, ~mini and WL hatchet size. I will post some shots and measurements in another thread when I have more time. This thread has gotten to mixed up for them to be meaningful here.

It would seem to me, if we can use a hatchet as a kitchen knife to cut onions and tomatoes, etc., as was shown by knifetester, surely a knife can, efficiently, do the work of a hatchet.

While a hatchet will work fine in a pinch, I like thin bladed knives for that sort of thing usually. A fillet knife is actually one of the best tools in the kitchen in my view. I especially like the old Gerber tool steel fillet knives, the are thin, sharp and hold an edge really well. Although I have never given it much thought, I can't imagine they would chop wood nearly as well as a hatchet though. . .

I am talking about driving tent snakes, smashing car windows, lifting debris away, etc.

I have used the poll of my hatchet for pounding many times, works fine, but I would never pound rock or metal with it, as I would worry about deforming the eye.

For the other tasks, smashing windows and stuff, I have never used an axe or a knife for either, but personally I would probably use a rock or stick for that and save the axe/knife for cutting and chopping.

BTW, Alan: I saw some pics of you and Dude Mcclean on an overnight, really cool net you guys braided!!! Great work, very creative, goes to show that skill, attitutde, and brain power are the most important tools we have, everything else is secondary.

 

[Halcon]

knifetester, thanks for the accolades on our adventure. We will have a complete write up of our experience in the next Wilderness Way, with more pictures that havn't already been shown. including improvised water containers... from the woods. Coincidently, Dude and i would have loved to sit and play more but I had to pick up my daughter.... Now what was that about 72 hour bugout gear?

Thanks again brother
Alan Halcon

 

[Outdoors]

Tiki_
re goloks
The Martindale golok is a serviceable tool. The HT is fairly soft (which is fine by me for a heavy chopper) and the layout of the blade and choil is excellent. You will find that the grip is pretty crude and it may need some work with a rasp and sandpaper (or a belt grinder) to really grip well. Even id the size is good for your hand, you will find the finish on the se tools is rough (which reflects the low price).

The traditional goloks that were the model for the Martindale are excellent tools. You might look up Valiant goloks on the web. They are located down under and carry a whole line of traditional (and excellent) goloks at very reasonable prices. Euither one is a fine useful tool.

Here's a review of the two side by side:
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/v-shrake/goloks.html

More reviews of Valiant tools here:
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/
(you will need to scroll down)


Pat

 

[Tikirocker]

based on the knives you listed, I'm also not surprised you were left unimpressed with their utility for woodcraft.

Thankyou, you sound like the voice of experience!

 

[Tikirocker]

Tiki_
re goloks
The Martindale golok is a serviceable tool. The HT is fairly soft (which is fine by me for a heavy chopper) and the layout of the blade and choil is excellent. You will find that the grip is pretty crude and it may need some work with a rasp and sandpaper (or a belt grinder) to really grip well. Even id the size is good for your hand, you will find the finish on the se tools is rough (which reflects the low price).

The traditional goloks that were the model for the Martindale are excellent tools. You might look up Valiant goloks on the web. They are located down under and carry a whole line of traditional (and excellent) goloks at very reasonable prices. Euither one is a fine useful tool.

Here's a review of the two side by side:
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/v-shrake/goloks.html

More reviews of Valiant tools here:
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/
(you will need to scroll down)


Pat

Great info there Pat and thankyou - I will check out those links and that data. I have been looking around for a nice golok and the Martindales are sold by our AKC in OZ but I'll be wanting the hardiest and best built golok I can lay hand to. There are the more traditional goloks also based on the Javan stylings that are more expensive but I really just want a solid field golok and not something that's too flash ... it's going to get knocked about!

I just got back from a gun show in Sydney today and saw a couple of really solid Australian army issue goloks from 1972! They were very solid and well constructed and had a good bit of weight to the blades - I was pissed I had no money on ME!!!! I'll be getting back to you on the golok so stand by my friend.