Have they all gone nuts?

I remember the first way of saying the Pledge of Allegiance and the words, "under God" wasn't in it.
I was in grade school and remember it pissing me off because the words were being added. I think it was during Eisenhower's Presidency.
I recall thinking then, "Who's God are they talking about?" Way back then I hadn't yet discovered just what God I believed in.
Now it doesn't bother me because I suspect that we all pray to the same God no matter our belief's or religion, after all there is only one God, ainnit?

My old time memory is much better than the things I try to remember now.
I also recall thinking about the seperation of church and state way back when I was just a kid. Looks like the times are here that someone had to protest it. There always has to be the few that want more circuses and bread just like the ancient Romans.
Don't forget Ancient Rome was a Republic too.
If we don't remember the past we're doomed to repeat it.

Anyone recall the statements made many years ago about seperating the USA into regions instead of states?
Since there are nine states that are going to try to outlaw the pledge as it stands I wonder if it's Region Niner that Kaliforniacator is inducing to do such a thing?:(
 
Firkin:

I understand. I don't have an issue with a person not reciting the Pledge for religious reasons. I do, however, question the idea of the general population not doing a whole laundry list of things because it might offend someone's/some group's sensitivities.

While I think your Rastas have the details wrong, I do find the increasing automation of commerce to jibe well with the Book of Revelations. And I'm not not one to interpret the Bible literally.

S.
 
I remember the first way of saying the Pledge of Allegiance and the words, "under God" wasn't in it.
I was in grade school and remember it pissing me off because the words were being added. I think it was during Eisenhower's Presidency.
I recall thinking then, "Who's God are they talking about?"
Click to expand...
"One nation, INDIVISIBLE, with liberty and justice for all."Congress added 'Under God" in 1954 because of the Red scare. McCarthyism, IMHO. The 9th Circuit opinion, which will almost certainly be reversed by the Supreme Court, is an exercise in judicial stupidity. I honestly wonder how indivisible the Republic is these days.
 
" I don't have an issue with a person not reciting the Pledge for religious reasons. I do, however, question the idea of the general population not doing a whole laundry list of things because it might offend someone's/some group's sensitivities."

Pretty much the way I feel. I went to school with lots of Jehovah's Witnesses and I can't recall any real issue. I think that they just stood up with everyone else, didn't put thier hand over their heart and didn't say anything. Sorta like bowing one's head and not talking if at a table where someone of another religion says grace. Simple courtesy. Don't have to leave the room, and there's no need to make a big deal about not saying anything either.

I don't remember any big problems when for a couple of years a bunch of kids would bus over to a church from the public school for Catechism while other children had recess or PE. I was one of those kids.

Stopped that practice about 5th grade (we moved), maybe I missed some hassles that would occur later.

Either the school can't stand that any children are behaving differently at certain times, or the children/parents can't stand that others in the school are. What happened to all this "diversity"??
 
"I was in grade school and remember it pissing me off because the words were being added. I think it was during Eisenhower's Presidency.
I recall thinking then, "Who's God are they talking about?" Way back then I hadn't yet discovered just what God I believed in.
Now it doesn't bother me because I suspect that we all pray to the same God no matter our belief's or religion, after all there is only one God, ainnit?"

This wiseman is amazing. Most have to spend a life time wandering the world . . .
 
Originally posted by Ferrous Wheel
or, which one?:) Soo many to choose from. More flavaz than Baskin Robbins!

Keith
Click to expand...

You're right Keith. I should'a added that.:)

Kinda reminds me of a joke I was sent the other day........

This minister was walking down the street and heard a couple of boys that had found a dead bird and were in the last stages of burying it.
The prayer he heard was almost enough to wilt his collar it has been said.
He overheard the boy praying, "In the name of the Father, the Son and Into the Hole He goes.":D
 
Originally posted by Pappy
I don't understand why so many people want to come to the US for the milk and honey and then try to change it the the same $hit the just left. It just doesn't make any sense. Of course Madeline O'Hare's crew doesn't help much either.:mad:

Whey don't they go someplace where they don't have any patriots.
Click to expand...

I usually bite my tongue with regard to issues like these but, this I cannot let pass.

I hate to disillusion you, but the phrase "under God" was added to the pledge of Alligiance in the 50's not by recent immigrants or long-haired, hippie-type, pinko-fags, but by the right wing religious politicians of the period. I remember when they did it, when I was in the fifth grade and wondered why I had to learn the whole damn thing again. I objected to it then and I object to it now. My kids shouldn't have to kowtow to the Christian "God" to pledge alligiance to the flag of their own goddamned country. This country was founded on religious freedom not bending to the will of the Christians. And by the way, "In God we Trust" shouldn't be on our money either, because I don't trust your "god" a bit. Also, BTW, I am a Vietnam combat vet, and I am as patriotic as any of you! Who do you think you are to tell me that I have to honor your god in order to honor my country.

Does anyone seriouly believe that all the good wishes and prayers for Uncle Bill, and the forumite who asked us to pray for his father, came from Christians and their god?

It's really pretty simple. Congress just removes the "under god" the same way they, arbitrarily, put it in, and we can all go back to being a country without religious prejudice, the way the founding fathers intended.


I have donned my Nomex suit, because I know what to expect. The same thing that the "heretics" could expect from Tomas de Torquemada at the Spanish Inquisition. He also wanted everyone to believe exactly as he did or burn. The only hope I have is that some on the forum, are Jews, Buddhists, Taoists, Islamics, or followers of other than the Christian faith. The list is vast. Fire away, I probably won't respond.
 
... in my opinion it is useless to say these words if you do not believe in them. In a multi cultural and multi religious environment (call the US a melting pot or a pizza) it is a problem for some who do not believe in the christian god - they should not be forced to speak these words.

As a christian it is my belief that there is only one specific god (father, son, holy ghost)- it is the god of the bible and in my belief he is the only way to receive life after death. So I have a different opinion than for example Yvsa, ichor or Ferrous Wheel - but I will not be a missionary or an inquisitor just because beeing a christian myself. It is no question to me they are honourable, patriotic and even wise or religious. It is not my duty to judge whether one is saved or not. (Christian arrogance in fact is a big problem. Christians are not better than the rest of the human beings, according to the bible noone deserves eternal life, christians receive it because of god's grace)

As a teacher I pray with my class before the first lesson in the morning and I want them to stand up - but they need not speak along, just not disturb the others who want to start school that way (there is no such thing like a pledge in Germany).
With politics and religion there is too much hypocrisy in some countries although here in Germany god and religion are more or less excluded from politics - and I do not like that (I think our Chancelor and our foreign Minister have been married four times each - I see this as a lack of values and in the US such a thing would be unthinkable...).

Sometimes a people decides to abolish god
but luckily god is more tolerant...

maybe as a foreigner I am not too competent on the topic of the pledge, so forgive the above words if they offend you.

Andreas
 
I feel compelled to put my .02 cents in.

I am not an advocate of organized religion, as I feel there are too many middle men with their own agenda.

In my ignorance, having said that, why does the word 'GOD' always have to be interpreted as a Christian God? I feel I am spiritual , believing in a higher or common spirituality that connects us all, no matter our organized controlled religions!. GOD has many names and is worshiped in many ways.

I see the problem as many folks believe everyone must Believe and Worship according to their religion and faith. Many wars have been fought over this belief.

Years ago, was it Art Linkletter, that had a little ceremony on his radio show? I have tried a search many times to find the exact words, but it went something like this:

A minute to pray, each in his own way, etc etc.

I was a little kid hearing that, but made an impression on me. Wish I had the exact words.
 
The " pledge of allegiance"....by Francis J. Bellamy, an editor of "Youth's Companion",thought it would be a fine thing on Dedication Day in Chicago Worlds Fare, the school children of America,offered something to their nation.


He composed a pledge that the Bureau of Education mailed to virtually every school.

I did not find the change under God as stated in other posts. I could need better glasses.........:(

Sam
 
Originally posted by sams
the change under God as stated in other posts. I could need better glasses.........:(

Sam
Click to expand...

All anyone wants to know about the Pledge of Allegiance.....

The Pledge of Allegiance
A Short History
by Dr. John W. Baer
Copyright 1992 by Dr. John W. Baer



Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).

Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex.

The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The Youth's Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest of its day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in 1891 as his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his baptist church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member of his congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later founded the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located in downtown Boston.

In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools' quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'

His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]

Dr. Mortimer Adler, American philosopher and last living founder of the Great Books program at Saint John's College, has analyzed these ideas in his book, The Six Great Ideas. He argues that the three great ideas of the American political tradition are 'equality, liberty and justice for all.' 'Justice' mediates between the often conflicting goals of 'liberty' and 'equality.'

In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.

Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there.

What follows is Bellamy's own account of some of the thoughts that went through his mind in August, 1892, as he picked the words of his Pledge:

It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...

The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?

Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity.' No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all...

If the Pledge's historical pattern repeats, its words will be modified during this decade. Below are two possible changes.

Some prolife advocates recite the following slightly revised Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, born and unborn.'

A few liberals recite a slightly revised version of Bellamy's original Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all.'



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Bibliography:

Baer, John. The Pledge of Allegiance, A Centennial History, 1892 - 1992, Annapolis, Md. Free State Press, Inc., 1992.
Miller, Margarette S. Twenty-Three Words, Portsmouth, Va. Printcraft Press, 1976.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


For more information about the history of the Pledge, be sure to also read the three online chapters of The Pledge of Allegiance, A Centennial History, 1892 - 1992 by Dr. Baer:


The Youth's Companion's Pledge
American Socialists and Reformers
The Life of Francis Bellamy
For answers to frequently asked questions about the Pledge and/or for a book order form for this six chapter book, please see www.PledgeQandA.com


Do you have other questions or comments about the "short history" or about the three chapters shown above?
Please contact:

Dr. John W. Baer <drjohnbaer@hotmail.com>
10 Taney Ave.
Annapolis, MD 21401
(410) 268 - 1743


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This web page is maintained by Chris Baer.
 
Samuel Thompson wrote:

I don't believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not going to sue somebody for
singing a Ho-Ho-Ho song in December. I don't agree with Darwin, but I didn't go out and hire a lawyer when my high school teacher taught his theory of evolution.

Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness will not be endangered because someone says a 30-second prayer before a football game. So what's the big deal? It's not like somebody is up there reading the entire book of Acts. They're just talking to a God they believe in and asking him to grant safety to the players on the field and the fans going home from the game. "But it's a Christian prayer," some will argue. Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country founded on Christian principles.

And we are in the Bible Belt. According to our very own phone book,
Christian churches outnumber all others better than 200-to-1. So what would you expect-somebody chanting Hare Krishna?
If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to hear a Jewish prayer. If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to hear a Muslim prayer. If I went to a ping pong match in China, I would expect to hear someone pray to Buddha. And I wouldn't be offended. It wouldn't bother me one bit. When in Rome...

"But what about the atheists?" is another argument. What about them?

Nobody is asking them to be baptized. We're not going to pass the
collection plate. Just humor us for 30 seconds. If that's asking too much, bring a Walkman or a pair of ear plugs. Go to the bathroom. Visit the concession stand. Call your lawyer. Unfortunately, one or two will make that call. One or two will tell thousands what they can and cannot do. I don't think a short prayer at a football game is going to shake the world's foundations.

Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other cheek while our
courts strip us of all our rights. Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray before we go to sleep. Our Bible tells us just to pray without ceasing. Now a handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying. God, help us. And if that last sentence offends you, well..........just sue me. The silent majority has been silent too long.. it's time we let that one or two who scream loud enough to be heard, that the vast majority don't care what they want.. it is time the majority rules!

It's time we tell them, you don't have to pray.. you don't have to say the pledge of allegiance, you don't have to believe in God or attend services that honor Him. That is your right, and we will honor your right.. but by golly you are no longer going to take our rights away .....we are fighting back.. and we WILL WIN!
...

God bless America, despite all her faults.. still the greatest nation of
all.....

God bless our service men who are fighting to protect our right to pray and worship God...
 
When I was a kid in school, our morning ritual consisted of reading a passage from the Bible, saying the Lord's Prayer - the longer Protestant version, saluting the flag, and saying the Pledge of Allegiance - both versions, before and after "under God", and singing a "patriotic" song. I don't remember the names of these songs but they had lines like "My Country Tis of Thee" and "Above the Fruited Plain". We sometimes sang the "Star Spangled Banner".

I hated when it was my turn to read the Bible. I considered it a bunch of mumbo jumbo that made no sense - like Sunday School, and I always wondered why we said the Protestant prayer when half the class was Catholic. We occasionally had a Jew in the class, but not very often because they lived in the rich section of town and had their own schools. The only Muslims I ever saw were in movies like "The Arabian Knights".

There were no Fundementalist Christians in our town, but in the poorer sections of the neighboring city you could find immigrants from the South we called Hillbillys. They had no churches, but would meet in shacks and garages. We called them "Holly Rollers", and thought of them as a silly group of fanatics.

We had not entered the Television Age so there were no TV Preachers. We did however have a bunch of old nuns who said "Holy Mary Mother of God" over and over on the radio. They came on right after Captain Midnight. I had no idea what they were talking about, but I liked to listen to them because they were hypnotic and put me to sleep.

Times have certainly changed. The "silly fanatics" have become political and exert a major influence on the country. Those who oppose them have now also become "silly fanatics", but if I were back in grade school I don't think I would care about this stuff any more now than I did then. It was just a ritual that we had to do like most of the stuff in school. The only thing that really mattered was the bell that rang at recess and when it was time to go home.
 
Yvsa, thanks for the additional I couldn't find in print.:)

I think there is too much animosity towards the spoken word God. I think it is a way of saying good and moral behavour through a spiritual belief. There are other spiritual views of what and who God is, to an individual. This country if it is to surrvive we better believe in something other than the almighty "Dollar".;)

That is one reason why I enlisted in 1968.

Sam
 
Seems like I remember that German soldier's belt buckles during WWI had something like "God is on our side" written on it. I've never discussed this with God but I'd guess He doesn't take sides but allows us to play out our karma as best we can which is not always really the "best."
 
Originally posted by Bill Martino
Seems like I remember that German soldier's belt buckles during WWI had something like "God is on our side" written on it. I've never discussed this with God but I'd guess He doesn't take sides but allows us to play out our karma as best we can which is not always really the "best."
Click to expand...

Yup, they did. I used to have one, an interesting aside is that the German buckles were "backwards" and went from left to right instead of right to left.
Mine was of brass with a silver or German Silver boss on it that had a crown in the center with "Gott Mit Uns" over the top and around it.
I never have figured out where that buckle went.:(
 
I have nothing to add to this topic that hasn't already been covered. I just wanted to step in and say that this thread is a perfect example of why I love this forum. How many other places could this type of discussion take place without it degenerating into a brawl?

Thanks all, carry on. :)
 
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