Have they all gone nuts?

Duty to God and country is mentioned in the Boy Scout oath. "So help me God" is part of the oath of enlistment into the military. I don't think either one is an endorsement of any particular faith/denomination as much as it is an acknowledgement of reverence for divinity. I have no problem with the Pledge of Allegiance, with or without "under God". I do have a problem with people who pledge their allegiance to the United States of America falsely. "Love it or leave it" comes to mind.

Sarge
 
Dayum . . . and all I thought I was goin' to learn on this forum was how to sharpen my khuk and keep it from rusting.:eek: :D
 
I stood with a few hundred other young idealists before the assembled Supremes and swore:
I do solemnly swear that I will support the constitution of the United States, and of this State; that I will honestly demean myself in the practice of the law, and will discharge my duties to my clients to the best of my ability. So help me God.
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It never occurred to me that the God in question was the Christian God - I assumed, as I do now with respect to the Pledge of Allegiance, that the deity in question was the "sole Divine Creator and Ruler of the universe", as the OED says. Right, I get my theology from a dictionary:)
 
I figured that folks who raise that right hand and swear to an oath to country or duty or a job, I have seen very few of them written that didn't mention God in some manner. For all those that have done such a thing, went where they were told, tried to do what they were supposed to do. They should all be able to look at themselves in the mirror every monrning and smile at themselves.

Only a patriot and loyal folk get a certain feeling from pledging themselves to the Red, White and Blue. When that flag goes by at ceremonies I still get the same feeling of goose bumps up and down my back and legs and the hair feels like it is standing up on my whole head. Maybe it's just me.

I'm kind of sorry that so many want to burn flags and denounce the pledge. And, then I saw 60 Minutes tonight and restored my faith just a little bit. God knows I love a bunch of young men in the service of our country.:)
 
Some of you know I ride a Harley. Have since 1970. If you've ever been to a biker rally or partied with any of the so called "gang" clubs, there is one thing you WON'T find. And that's disrespect for the flag and this country.

Gawd help the idiot who burns a flag around those guys!
 
People are the same everywhere. Most from every quarter of the world have some sort of concept of God in which they believe and have faith. Trying to keep this God out of daily business such as government and education seems impossible to me and, personally, I think it's a mistake to do so. Of course there's the minority who disagree but let's face it, that's what they are -- the minority -- and societies must cater to the needs of the majority or they are doomed for great trouble and probably failure.
 
"...societies must cater to the needs of the majority or they are doomed for great trouble and probably failure."

Like the majority of Americans who wanted to remain British subjects?

Or the majority who considered Negros sub-human?

Or the majority who thought women should not vote?

Major social change in any democracy is always instigated my a small minority.
 
When the minorities turn to majorities things happen. The best example in our lifetime is the Viet Nam war.
 
..Yep, I get that too.

As it turns out, it is the religious right that keeps the govt in check when it comes to religious freedom. It is because of them that Native American churches can use Peyote for their vision quests and such, and keeps the state from taking religious rights. They also keep heathens from me from getting lynched by the state.

My only big objection to Xtianity (and the other abrahamic religions) is its history of abuse and control as an Org. I KNOW J-man did not intend for the Catholic church to force conversion on most of Europe, by fire and sword, the destruction of hofs, temples, and sacred enclosures, the massing of wealth by the Vatican, the Crusades, the Inquisiton, and so on. The unification and the reformation were tools for the church to weasel its way in to controlling the state by luring greedy kings and earls with the promise of a cut of the alms. As it ended up inn England, the church had the power to excommunicate a king for whatever reason they wanted, and it was usually done to preserve the churches poower over the state. (Sorry--all of this from my medieval studies degree)

My gripe is with commercialized, take-a-number organized religion. I'm a tribalist in this respect. I practice more by living each day than bowing or scarping at the lap of any god. I have gods I can curse at, laugh with, etc. Beware any divinity that lacks a sense of humor. I give blessings to my gods and goddesses, but not as a thrall (slave), but as a free man. I show respect to my gods my the ancestors, but they know I am not dependent upon any sort of salvation or spiffy gift they might bestow in the afterlife. I live for life, not to protect some squatter's rights in the afterlife. Heck, the secrets of the realms after death is all supposition by the living. And I can say that AFTER having a dramatic religious experience (the one that drew me to my path).

Also, I feel that a religion without goddesses is halfway to atheism.
;)

Most folks just believe what they're taught, so if your parents go to church, you as a kid are expected to go. If you do not explore your options as you grow, how can you know your parents, or their parents, made the right spiritual choice for you?

Thee Most devout Christian I've ever met converted from Hinduism, and he had given this cinversion much thought. He researched, thought, and felt it was for him, and had good reasons. With folk like that, Christianity is strengthened.

Anyway, take what you like and leave the rest. I mean no offense, and I do realize I may have painted the history of (Catholic) Christianity in an unflattering light. I have no gripe with individuals, but Socialized Religion is wrong! I have friends of many faiths, and as I get older I see the value in each.

I am a patriot, and revel in the diversity of the tapestry that makes this USA, and the world. Takes all kinds.

Keith
 
The Tao exisits without people believing. God is unknowable. The unknown is beyond your neighbors door.

I don't want a minority saying I cannot say a prayer because it offends them. If a person does not want to say the pledge of alegiance, or pray in school, ok, they don't have to do it. BUT don't stop me or those who wish to pray or salute the flag.

As time goes on, America is changing from how it was intended. Land of the free and home of the brave?????

Sam
 
Originally posted by Ferrous Wheel
..Yep, I get that too.

As it turns out, it is the religious right that keeps the govt in check when it comes to religious freedom. It is because of them that Native American churches can use Peyote for their vision quests and such, and keeps the state from taking religious rights. They also keep heathens from me from getting lynched by the state.
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I agree except for the Peyote being used for vision quests.
I have a lot of respect for the members of the Native American Church.
Setting all night long in a tipi praying is quite an ordeal!!!!

My gripe is with commercialized, take-a-number organized religion. I'm a tribalist in this respect. I practice more by living each day than bowing or scarping at the lap of any god. I have gods I can curse at, laugh with, etc. Beware any divinity that lacks a sense of humor. I give blessings to my gods and goddesses, but not as a thrall (slave), but as a free man. I show respect to my gods my the ancestors, but they know I am not dependent upon any sort of salvation or spiffy gift they might bestow in the afterlife. I live for life, not to protect some squatter's rights in the afterlife. Heck, the secrets of the realms after death is all supposition by the living. And I can say that AFTER having a dramatic religious experience (the one that drew me to my path).
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Here!!!! Here!!!!:D

Although we ndns, the group here and in Osage County that Sweat and Pray together, do believe in the ultimate creator we cannot describe what that may be except it's formless and has attributes of both sexes while being sexless itself.
Grandfather and Grandmother are approachable and have their own genders.
The directions each have their own spiritual aspects. Then the animals and plants have their own spiritual aspects.

Also, I feel that a religion without goddesses is halfway to atheism.
;)
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Here!!!! Here!!!!:D

Most folks just believe what they're taught, so if your parents go to church, you as a kid are expected to go. If you do not explore your options as you grow, how can you know your parents, or their parents, made the right spiritual choice for you?
Click to expand...

:D

Thee Most devout Christian I've ever met converted from Hinduism, and he had given this cinversion much thought. He researched, thought, and felt it was for him, and had good reasons. With folk like that, Christianity is strengthened.
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Yep!!!!

Anyway, take what you like and leave the rest. I mean no offense, and I do realize I may have painted the history of (Catholic) Christianity in an unflattering light. I have no gripe with individuals, but Socialized Religion is wrong! I have friends of many faiths, and as I get older I see the value in each.
Click to expand...

Yep, me too!!!!

I am a patriot, and revel in the diversity of the tapestry that makes this USA, and the world. Takes all kinds.

Keith
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Yep!!!! Me too.:D
 
Originally posted by sams
The Tao exisits without people believing. God is unknowable. The unknown is beyond your neighbors door.

I don't want a minority saying I cannot say a prayer because it offends them. If a person does not want to say the pledge of alegiance, or pray in school, ok, they don't have to do it. BUT don't stop me or those who wish to pray or salute the flag.

As time goes on, America is changing from how it was intended. Land of the free and home of the brave?????

Sam
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Yep. me too!!!!:D
"The right to swing your fist stops at the end of my nose."
Let everyone do their own thing as long as it causes no one harm. As an ndn I don't go around trying to convert people to my belief and I want the same respect shown to me.
The only ndns I know that try to change peoples mind's are the Christian ndns.
Even the Native American Church doesn't try to convert other ndns.
 
Good stuff and thanks. It was an old Lakota medicine man who helped me back on the path when I had strayed too far.
 
Good stuff, Sams. I like Taoism, and it is truly the study of the great Void. All would do well to mind the teachings of the great masters. All of the great masters are invisible to the world.

Keith
 
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Yep. me too!!!!
"The right to swing your fist stops at the end of my nose."
Let everyone do their own thing as long as it causes no one harm. As an ndn I don't go around trying to convert people to my belief and I want the same respect shown to me.
The only ndns I know that try to change peoples mind's are the Christian ndns.
Even the Native American Church doesn't try to convert other ndns.
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:D I like that!

It reminds me of old times in the ndn bars;) I had a great time because I showed respect. Too many white guys "grab" an arm joking or push when laughing. They never understood why the ndn's beat the sh*t out of them.:D ;) :D

Sam
 
Originally posted by Ben Arown-Awile
"...societies must cater to the needs of the majority or they are doomed for great trouble and probably failure."

Like the majority of Americans who wanted to remain British subjects?

Or the majority who considered Negros sub-human?

Or the majority who thought women should not vote?

Major social change in any democracy is always instigated my a small minority.
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Were they truly majorities, or just those with hegemony? Is a majority determined by shear numbers, or vestment within the hegemonic group? Do oppositional groups truly represent a minority?
 
“Is a majority determined by shear numbers, or vestment within the hegemonic group? Do oppositional groups truly represent a minority?“

In the ideal version of Democracy, the hegemonic group is the general populace. Members are vested by their eligibility to vote. But, in practice, our system of Representative Democracy does not always meet this ideal.

Oppositional groups may be either a majority or a minority depending on their number, however the program or platform that they espouse does not spring spontaneously from their group mind. It was first proposed by an individual or a small group, which by definition is always a minority.

The value, and danger of a Democratic system is that these minority positions, when accepted by the majority, can become the prevailing opinion and eventually the law of the land.
 
Ben

For me the question goes back to if the "majority" adopts the "minority" position, doesnt the then "minority" position become a "majority" position? Hence my questioning as to the way you were using majority and minority, particularly thier vestment in the hegemonic group, since a minority population in numbers can have greater determination if they comprise the hegemonic group (this of course is acknowledging an un-ideal society). However, in your specific examples, I would question the particulars about whom you are referring too.

As to my question do oppositional groups necessarily represent minorities, that is in reference to the dichotomous scenario that you set up in your specific examples. Eg. majority vs minority oppositions. Again it goes back to how you are using majority and minority.

The main reason Im looking for explanation is that a professor once asked in class how can oppositional groups create revolution if the basis of hegemony is through constant opposition?
 
I'm with Ichor on this one. I say keep the Pledge but get rid of the "under God", mainly because I'm an athiest and I don't like pledging to a god that I don't believe in. For this very reason I don't say the Pledge at all. I had one teacher who tried to force me to say the Pledge, I found a student rulebook and showed her exactly where it said that I could refrain from saying it. She didn't care, she tried to force me to say the Pledge anyway. The vice principles at the office were of no help. I may be in a small minority but I still don't think that's right at all. Schools now have a minute of silence, mainly to give people a chance to pray. I have no problem with that at all, no one is forcing me to do or say anything. As for the "Under God" on money, I have no problem with that either. It seems to state that the country follows a god, which I disagree with, but it doesn't say that I'm wrong for disagreeing.
 
You've got the right, Skel. You can say the pledge and just leave out under God if you like. If anybody asks just tell them in your belief system you don't have a God so it's crazy for you to refer to one. I'd buy that and I think anybody would.

Let's update this majority and minority thing so I can understand it. What we are talking about is what people believe and think -- their convictions. I never could understand college professors.
 
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