Have we entered a “Golden Age”?

It is only through the looking glass of distance and time that we can really know what part we play in history(I made this up on the spot)

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Man, STevie, that is DEEP! I copied that and have it on my shop wall. You see, spending time with Joey has, in fact, broadened your outlook and given you greater wisdom and vision.:D

Also, at my age, every morning starts a new "Golden Age"

Paul
 
Here's not only a reasonably likely scenario for you but an actual one, collectors waiting 3-4 years for commissions that are past due as their makers are since producing "brute de forge" pieces 'for sale' on a regular basics.

I don't know the specifics of that situation, but the problem there sounds more like one of a general failure to keep on top of orders (quite a common situation) versus any "stagnation of creativity" born of the production of brut-de-forge pieces. And the example as it stands confuses and conflates a number of different issues.

Many makers who are backlogged with orders routinely make "off-list" knives available for direct sale on their web sites and at shows - sometimes standard models, sometimes less expensive models, and sometimes complex pieces that represent and extension of their skill sets and creative talent. Yes, believe it or not, some makers fiind they are quite able to expand their creative outlook without the benefit of some superstar collector taking them by the hand and showing them the path through a brilliantly conceived and horizon-expanding custom order.

I don't really have an issue with the regular production of off-list knives, save for the fact that there should be communication with order-holders as to a more realistic delivery date. Arguably, one way for a maker to stagnate is to devote 100% of his time to custom orders. But as I said, it's not an either / or proposition. Balance is good.

Making brut-de-forge pieces has precisely nothing to do with a stagnation of creativity.

Making "standard model" pieces has precisely nothing to do with a stagnation of creativity.

Making custom order pieces has precisely nothing to do with a stagnation of creativity.

Doing any one to the exclusion of all others is likely a bad idea for a number of reasons. But I still don't see that as a prevalent or even likely scenario.

Roger
 
I suspect we are far too close to the subject to be able to make an objective evaluation. I sure if you asked most knifemakers if they thought they were part of the "golden age", they would tell you yes. And having once convinced themselves of this, I would expect some will raise their prices based on that.

Just because there are now more different ways to lock a blade doesn't ensure that any of those are that much better than the traditional lockback as far as function. Is Michael Walker knives in a golden age, sure. His liner lock revolutionized locks, but no one has come up with anything better or comparable since--and certainly not in public acceptance (or manufacturers knocking it off with no compensation to the originator).

The internet has had an impact on the knife business, but has not created a golden age--but it has made the world of knives more accessible -- especially to the mildly interested who would read a free forum but never fork over the cash for a knife book or knife magazine (and which also makes one wonder how strong a buying market that segment of the casual observer would be).

It is certainly easier to sit a home and order a knife, if that is all the knife experience is to you. I love the shows, the interaction, the conversations while looking someone in the face, and hefting the balance of a finely made knife.

Dramatic change and slight technological improvement does not make a golden age. And it is only the bailiwick of those in the future to accurately make that judgement. History doesn't work any other way.

There have been dramatic changes in knives--but how many of those changes are more functional than cosmetic? I'm sure there were plenty of French Rocco artists that thought they were in a golden age of art, while today much of that art looks overdone and tacky.

A large part of this dramatic change (rather than a golden age) is the shortening of the learning curve. When you look at the resources that Moran or Loveless had when they came into prominence versus what is out there today once can easily see why they were the giants they were.

Just because a maker is more tech-savvy and more able to market himself in a new niche while the more traditional makers do not does not put anyone in a golden age.

If you wanted to start knifemaking from scratch today there are videos, schools, hammer-ins, a wide variety of books, a multitude of suppliers with a huge variety of handle materials, steels, and equipment. A beginning knifemaker who applies himself can be doing what once was top-name-maker quality work in a fraction of the time it would have taken 15 or 20 years ago.

One of the interesting things about these instant stars is how quick they put their prices to max levels, while many of the legends today started their early knives out at a more competitive price and raised them as their reputation grew.

That doesn't make a golden age, it just makes the information easier to obtain.
 
Bruce, very Good points.

Perhaps your post will get this thread started back down a productive path.
 
Perhaps your post will get this thread started back down a productive path.

:rolleyes:

I suspect we are far too close to the subject to be able to make an objective evaluation.

Accepting that the question can only be answered in a retrospective / historical context, my questions to you would be: if we aren't presently in a "golden age" of custom knives - has there been one to date? If so, when was it and what were its defining characteristics? As you have been involved in the field in a broad capacity for some time, you are as well siutated as most to answer the question.

And given that you have pointed to several factors which you feel are not (necessarily) indicative of a golden age at present, you no doubt have an understanding of what criteria could / should be used in the assessment. Do share.

Roger
 
I think technology and information have made advancements.

I don’t think knifemakers themselves are any more advanced, innovative or sophisticated. People haven’t changed for the better. Many folks believe modern technology makes people lazy and less self reliant.

With new tools, materials and technologies,… something is lost and something is gained. It’s a trade off.

I guess I’m a bit sentimental about it,… and reminisce a lot about the "good old days"... or "The Golden Age". As a teacher of the craft, it saddens me that so many new students really don’t want to pay their dues anymore and just want instant gratification. What it comes down to these days is how much technology one can afford… and not so much about "human" discipline and development.

However, I think there are still a few makers left that do try and keep the fire burning, and will understand what I’m trying say,... in spite of the fact that I find it very hard to put into words.

Information and the internet have made quite a few people "experts and authorities ",... who have never even made and/or bought a knife in their lives! :) LOL
(That's probably an exaggeration in most cases,... just trying to make a point though.)
 
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:rolleyes:

Accepting that the question can only be answered in a retrospective / historical context, my questions to you would be: if we aren't presently in a "golden age" of custom knives - has there been one to date? If so, when was it and what were its defining characteristics? As you have been involved in the field in a broad capacity for some time, you are as well siutated as most to answer the question.

And given that you have pointed to several factors which you feel are not (necessarily) indicative of a golden age at present, you no doubt have an understanding of what criteria could / should be used in the assessment. Do share.

Roger

In my opinion the field of modern handmade knives is too new to have that kind of history that would qualify for a golden age. Give it 100 years and see when things were the best they have ever been. If then looking back, it was now, then maybe it could be. I don't see it in comparison with two moments in time which I feel were "golden eras".

To be a golden era it has to be a time when the finest were ever made, and afterwards the quality, workmanship, declined, and those original designs were copied by those who came later.

So for knives, the Golden Age 1. Bowies. 1830-1845.
Why? In a day when firearms were unreliable, a good knife was often a primary weapon. So on one 19th century day on a sandbar across the river from Natchez a strong man survived being stabbed and dispatched an opponent while a sword cane was sticking from his chest.
The story captured the imagination of the public, helped because the river was the expressway of the time, and the story spread. Everyone wanted a knife like Bowie's, then they asked for Bowie's knife, and finally asked for a Bowie knife.

To meet that demand, simply stated, some of the finest Bowie knives ever made were produced. Made to the requirements that a man's life could actually depend on the quality, the quickness, the balance, the strength. Large knives were never the same after this. And the knives made during that brief era were the finest Bowie knives ever made, in my opinion.

In the modern era there are only a handful of makers who understand the balance of those knives. Moran did, Fisk does. Not a lot of others. And unless you've handled a few hundred original Bowies from that day, I'm not sure you can understand what I'm saying with words or pictures in a book. There's so much more to it than that.

You can only know it when you pick up one of those original Bowies and feel that electric tingle course up your arm. Coffin hilts were so designed because they functioned, not for looks. Hold a genuine Woodhead and you'll see.

And those designs from that Golden Era? Copied by the best knifemakers today. Good Bowies, but few are comparable with the original, unfortunately. You cannot make a golden age with copies. Golden age 1.

And it was an era that ended. When the percussion cap improved the reliability of fireams and came into widespread use, there was no need for a primary weapon knife. And with less importance placed upon it, the quality faded away. (Just as I predict the quality of finely balanced knives today will fade away to the "I'm on the internet and I'll save money by not going to knife shows" collectors).

Golden age 2.
Late 19th Century Sheffield. Rodgers, IXL, Greenhough, John Blyde. You can see some examples in the Claussen et. al. Exhibition knife book, but again it is difficult to appreciate until you hold those knives, and look at the intricate filework inside and out, those gold inlaid tortoise handles, the Yorkshire rose engraved pin heads, a carved pearl fruit knife with 100 or more sterling silver pins inlaid in them. A polish that came from holding a knife on a lead faced wheel to get what the Sheffielder's called the "black polish."

No one since then has ever come close. Even the best makers who copy the designs (and here is the point too, they "copy" those designs), still miss it somehow. First they cannot safely duplicate that polish, and there is a classic picture in an old Rodgers history that shows the Rodgers workers who had been there for over 50 years. 30 or so white bearded fellows who were some of the best at what they did that ever lived.

Fifty years! How many 50-year makers are there? Moran, Hibben, not many more.

And more significant than all was the fact that those 50-year-makers were making knives in a place where the average age of a cutler ended in his early 40's.

Now most of those knives from that era were not sole-authorship, which is a big thing among modern knifemakers. But any of them COULD have made a spectacular knife from start to finish if they wanted. It was not a requirement of the time.

And that era ended between 1914 and 1918, when the next generation of great cutlers met their end in the muddy trenches of France.

One Sheffield native told me that one day in 1916 the Hallamshire based regiments were decimated in a single attack at the battle of Ypres, and that after that single day Sheffield cutlery was never the same.

Compare those knives, and those circumstances to today's knifemaking scene. Golden age? Ask me in 90-100 years.
 
If there was ever a better answer to this thread's question, I haven't seen it - and doubt another as equally eloquent and convincing will appear.

A really good read of something that makes sense. Thanks, Bruce.
 
Very interesting post, Bruce, but I would point out that the golden age of American makers probably extended until after the Civil war in places like San Francisco, but the shear numbers were never there. What caused the decline IMO, was not the advent of inexpensive repeating firearms, but the flooding up the market with mass produced cutlery from England. Not every bowie from Sheffield was a work of art. Most that I have seen were pretty pedestrian. Remember that Sam Colts first few pistols can only be classified as commercial failures. The reason that a real Patterson or Walker Colt sells for so much today has as much to do with scarcity as those pistol's place in history. Colt and his competitors didn't start making real money until the government started buying their stuff in the 1850's. Cheap reliable firearms became available to civilians after the Civil War because of all of the excess capacity. Compare the price of $13-18 or so for an 1860 Colt pistol or Henry rifle with the price or say a Purdey percussion express rifle from the 1840-50's. it was the Sheffield cutlers who arguably suffered the most in the collapse of the market for high end BIG knives, but this would have likely been after they had taken over the US market from the local small makers.
You make a very good point about WW1. The "pals" battalion concept that was insituted by Lord Kitchener for the new army in 1915-16 meant that in many cases, all of the lads from your town were in the same unit. The bad news is that of your battalion was one that was ordered over he top at Ypres or on the first day of the battle of the Somme, most of them were going to end up on a casualty report somewhere and the young male population of an entire town would be wiped out. Those numbers in some towns in Scotland approached 60 percent dead over the course of the war.....not dead or wounded.
 
Last year, or before, Tai Goo made the following statement during a conversation:

"This is not the scientific community"

To what degree is the statement accurate? How much of the "science of metalurgy" (in knifemaking) is known, and what is left to explore?
david
 
Truly great knife makers have been prominent in the knife community for many hundreds of years. If you want art consider the King Tut Dagger, who besides Buster has made anything close to it?

Today we have the best materials, finest equipment ever known to man, information good and bad floods the Internet, still I feel there is a lot missing in what we make.

I would not call today the golden age, but the golden age of opportunity.
What we do with it will be judged by those who follow.
 
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