Heat treating and professionalism

Joined
Feb 18, 2016
Messages
2,209
Alright i know this is a sensitive topic, and people have VERY strong feelings on this. But i want to hear everyones professional opinion on this.
I forge blades to shape and ht in a forge, as of right now with out PID control. So far ive only used 80crv2 and im quenching in warm parks AAA.
I don't own a hardness tester either.
Theres other makers that have been heat treating like this for years. And i understand its not the "best" option. But with steels like 80crv2 i dont really see a problem with it. Is it still ok to sell knives that are HT in this manner?
 
I think its ok to sell knives made by any method as long as you are honest to the customer about the procedures used. Also consider having a blade or a scrap of steel hardness tested to get a rough idea of where you sit. It is no guarentee that all your bladed will be that spec but it helps. I know the hardness tester is not a cool tool like a mill or a grinder but its nice. I recently bought one and I have no regrets... so far. Its good that you are using proper quench oil. My tester indicated that my canola oil wasnt cutting it in my exact set up.
 
Agreed. Be honest. First and foremost. A proper quench oil is a great plus.

At least you are using a steel that is forgiving and a good oil. 80CrV2 is eutectoid (forgiving in hardening temp to some degree). It has a small amount of chromium (not requiring a special fast quench oil). It has a small vanadium count (helps to keep aus grain small when temps can’t be held precisely).

I, for one, commend your post and inquiry. If you were using a hyper-eutectoid steel with more alloying, then my reply would be different.

It all boils down to how to make the best blade with what you have. It is NOT about having more/better equipment at all. A good/great maker will match their chosen steel with what they have.

You, with your set up and 80CrV2, may indeed be able to make a better blade than the next guy who has a digitally controlled kiln and commercial quench oil using 52100. It’s all about maximizing what you have, learning it, getting the most out of it.

Good topic. Nice post.
 
I have been meaning to ask this exact question for a while now. Over the last few months i have been wanting to put a few of my knives up for sale, however i felt that selling anything while not providing the the assurance of a hardness test was not really adequate/acceptable.

I had a few of my knives tested recently, and to my astonishment i got very poor results on a couple of my blades. I'm happy i was made aware of this before i actually tried to sell anything, because it showed that there was something fundamentally wrong with my ht methods. Personally, I would at least try to find somebody who is willing to test a few of your blades, just for added assurance.

On the topic of selling forge ht'ed blades... I think a major factor is dependent on the price point of the knives being sold. Buyers who purchase knives on the more expensive side are somewhat entitled to the assurance of a hardness test IMO.
Buyers on the cheaper side would be more forgiving considering the blades were made in the more traditional sense, and so if it passes the brass rod test and can hold a wicked edge, then all is dandy!
 
I think the important thing here, that's being omitted, is whether you're just "following a recipe" or refining, tweaking, and testing your HT. Hardness is only one of many factors. People also fixate on the "on paper" potential of this or that steel, pick an industry recommended (broad, general) HT recipe, and assume that the performance is there.

You can have high hardness and huge grain with stress fractures, or all sorts of other things. One batch of steel can hit different numbers and perform differently from the next batch, even though it's the "same steel" by designation.

Hardness testing is only one factor, one method, that can be used to make sure you're getting *some* of the results you expect, when everything else is nominally the same.

I do have and use a hardness tester, but I don't use it to "validate" my perceptions of performance. I still test each one, with criteria I've determined, that indicates a given steel that I've picked to use, is performing the way I expect it to, for the target use scenarios and characteristics *I* am most concerned with. I've picked a couple of steels, and I try to get enough of each one to last me many knives, so that I can come up with a HT regime that is repeatable, and will give consistent results. That being said, I know guys without hardness testers, that HT in forges without PIDs, that can get much better performance than I can, with steels they've mastered, utilizing, the same ideology.


Many top makers do have hardness testers, just as many, or more, do not. Almost all of them though, that don't have picked a single steel, or a couple, and figured out how to make the most of it, as opposed to jumping around from this to that hypothetically "superior" steel, or buying one bar at a time from whomever, and expecting the manufacturer's baseline HT regime to give optimal performance in an object that was never the focus of that baseline HT recommendation.


It all depends on what you wanna do. However, if you do want to play around with lots of different steel, and lots of different style of knives, I'd say, it behooves you to have as many tools in your arsenal as possible, to measure potential performance. Digital kiln or better, cryo, hardness tester, etc, are help you with that, but nothing will be as valuable as extensive testing in real use scenarios, with not just different edge geometry and other physical attributes, but changes to times, temps, etc.
 
Thanks for the votes of confidence gentleman!
Heres my ht schedule:
After forging normalize at least 3x
Bright orange cool to black (CTB)
Dull orange (just at magnetic)
darker orange barely magnetic turn off forge and let blade cool wirh forge
Sometimes i normalize twice more just prior to austentized quench
Bring blade up to a shade brighter than non magnetic hold for 2 minutes by turning forge down as low as possible (5psi) constantly moving blade to ensure even heat. Quench in 130° parksAAA.
Temper 2x2hours 350-400°

Ive gotten consistent fine grain on blades ive snap tested. I try and test the cutting/chopping ability of every blade.
 
I believe it is difficult to hold for two minutes in a forge without over heating.
But you are doing good. Also no need to let a blade cool with the forge after normalizing.
 
Thanks everyone. Its nice to know im doin this the right way.
If i was to purchase some parks 50 what other steels could i use with this method?
Don Hanson III Don Hanson III i leave it in the forge to try and anneal it.
 
I have Parks 50 and have used it to quench my 80CrV2 knives. I don’t have a hardness tester, either but built a salt pot to help me with my heat treating tolerances. Prior to that, I used my forge for austenizing. I know 80CrV2 doesn’t require the faster oil, but it was what I had and so far, things have gone well. My son’s hunting knife has very capably dressed and skinned a couple deer. The only change I’d like to make to it is a little thinner edge geometry...

With the faster oil, you can use those faster quenching steels. You’ll likely do better with steels like 10XX, W1, W2, 15N20, etc. I’ve used 1080 and 15N20 in my Parks 50 and had good results-mostly.

Quick story: I made a little bird and trout type design that I used some thin 15N20 stock to make. I thought they were kinda neat and the first one turned out pretty well and I didn’t totally screw up the plunge lines. It was the first knife I used my salt pot with for austenizing. I hand sanded it, sharpened it, and thought all was well. I decided to do some cut testing and it went miserably. Like, really bad. I just couldn’t cut much anything for very long AT ALL. Talked to my buddy John Doyle and did some more thinking. I finally put it in a vise and started bending. I was kinda crushed after spending all that time building the salt pot, working on the knife, and it didn’t do what it was supposed to-cut well. In the end, I found out it didn’t harden correctly/evenly. I put the blade in the salt pot and I didn’t want to over do things, so I didn’t let it sit in there for very long. I thought I’d gotten to austenization, but very clearly hadn’t. I took the blade out too soon. I did things differently with the next knives of the same design and shocker-it worked out just fine.

A hardness tester would have been an interesting addition to the problem solving. But I could clearly tell by the tests what happened/that it wasn’t a good knife. When I bent the knife, there were some small cracks, but mostly just bent. I kept bending until it kind of “tore” and I could check it out. As has been mentioned above, I feel like you’re fine. Use your tools and steel choice effectively, do your testing, and be upfront with how you make your knives.

Jeremy
 
Well the fighter ive been working on kinda took a dump. So i broke it to check the grain. This is what it looked like:
H2lUA5v.jpg

Looks burnt? Also it only bent MAYBE 30 degrees before snapping.
 
Thanks everyone. Its nice to know im doin this the right way.
If i was to purchase some parks 50 what other steels could i use with this method?
Don Hanson III Don Hanson III i leave it in the forge to try and anneal it.
When cooling in this manner from below magnetic, just let it cool in still air. There is nothing to be gained by slow cooling from that temp.
What is happening to the steel at this temp is happening in the forge when at heat - not cooling.
 
Well the fighter ive been working on kinda took a dump. So i broke it to check the grain. This is what it looked like:
H2lUA5v.jpg

Looks burnt? Also it only bent MAYBE 30 degrees before snapping.
That grain don t look good at all ............
 
Hmm alright thanks don. Thats after a few normalizing cycles as i stated before. Maybe holding it and quenching in a higher than optimal heat like you said is the culprit
 
Hmm alright thanks don. Thats after a few normalizing cycles as i stated before. Maybe holding it and quenching in a higher than optimal heat like you said is the culprit

Grain grows during normalization. The grains end up the same size, so grain refinement following normalization causes new grains to form within the even grain boundaries caused by the original normalization.

Good on you for showing your results here and getting feedback. :thumbsup:
 
It’s easy to heat something up and make it hard, it takes a lot of practice, even with the best equipment, to become good at heat treating.

Hoss

I agree with you. I do a lot of testing with heat treat, and after 5 years of knifemaking, there are four steels I feel I know quite well, and can recommend specific geometry and hardness in multiple applications. I can follow a recipe as well as anyone, but with those four steels, I can push the geometry and hardness and I know where the limits are.
 
Back
Top