Heat treating and professionalism

Yeah im just using a 2 brick forge for now so a muffler wont fit. Should have a "real" forge next month. And im building a blown burner now.
Is it bad to just forge out a blade and send it out for HT? :mad:
 
still pick up a thermocouple and display. will give you a better idea of what is going on. sending it out is ok, just be sure the company knows the blade is forged and what heat treatment you have given the blade.
 
still pick up a thermocouple and display. will give you a better idea of what is going on. sending it out is ok, just be sure the company knows the blade is forged and what heat treatment you have given the blade.

It will, but the thing you have to keep in mind with austenizing in a forge; you're actually "shooting" for a higher temp than you would in an HT kiln, because you can't hold the soak times. Remember, it's time, and temperature. That doesn't mean, you need X temp and X time period, it means the two are linked intrinsically, you can increase time and lower temperature, to some degree, or increase temperature, and lower time, to achieve your results (within specific limits).

There's a lot of differeing views on whether this is better or worse, but some steels respond really well to austenizing at a higher temp without any soak, as evidenced by their performance and higher as quenched RC, and there's plenty of historical data that supports the idea that the faster austenization with low alloy/simple carbon steels can give better performance (i.e., austenizing as fast as possible, which mitigates grain growth, etc).

I'm saying all this, not to start a debate on that subject, just to be clear that, if he does use a thermocouple to determine temp, he's gonna see worse performance most likely in that kind of forge, if he tries to hold at the "by the book" hardening temps, which will inevitably be uneven no matter how much he's moving the work piece in and out of the burner "sweet spot" at that temp.

He's better off doing it by eye, in dark lighting, watching for uniform above critical temp, watching for the last shadow to move out, and quenching immediately. That is, with the current equipment. Countless exceptionally performing knives have been made this way. In fairness, this is more in the "art" vs "science" area of skill, takes lots of practice, and helps if you've been shown how to judge this properly by someone with proven results, as opposed to "internet self education".


Now, to be clear, I'm not saying this is the "best" way to do your HT, and 90% of my stuff is done with a digitially controlled kiln and a pretty specific process. However, I've made stuff under the correct circumstances that performed just as well, or better using the above methodologies. The old W2 is a great example, typically it'll show better grain, less decarb, and 1-2 points higher as quenched hardness when heat treated in a forge, vs soaking at the "on paper" temps in a kiln.
 
That makes alot of sense. Ive gotten really fine grain with this steel multiple times. I think im forging too hot. And trying to hold to long as both you and don have suggested. Guess more testing is in my future lol
 
If you are going to forge the blades it makes sense to follow that method with the coupons.
 
Alright well i forged out a blade yesterday, ill go ahead and ht it and just wont hold at temp then break it and see what it looks like. If it looks good i will know my problem is as don mentioned amd im over heating pre quench. If it doesn't look good then it must've gotten too hot during forging. Sound about right?
 
I wonder if part of the issue is from letting them cool in the forge. It’s possible the inside of the forge is well above your target temp, and may be overheating the blade when you put it back in after the last cycle to cool. Years ago I tried this to anneal a blade. When I was done my cycles I put it back in the forge and closed it up with bricks. When I took it out the next morning, the scale that had formed showed me that the internal forge temp was considerably hotter than I thought and clearly stayed hot for a lot longer than I had expected.
 
Just a semantics note:
You put a muffler on you car.
You put a muffle in your forge and HT a blade inside the muffle.

A muffler silences things.
A muffle isolates the heated chamber from the fuel in a forge/kiln.
 
Until you get a thermocouple in there, you are guessing at temperature. As Stacy points out above, you put a muffle in your forge then put the blade inside the muffle where it is isolated from the flame and the temperature is more constant. the muffle just has to be big enough for the blade to fit in. 1 1/2" square tube will fit at 2" tall blade. But you need something to tell you the temperature inside the tube. you should be able to keep the temperature inside the muffle +/-25F, close enough for high carbon steel, it will just take some testing to find the right forge settings.
 
Now, to be clear, I'm not saying this is the "best" way to do your HT, and 90% of my stuff is done with a digitially controlled kiln and a pretty specific process. However, I've made stuff under the correct circumstances that performed just as well, or better using the above methodologies. The old W2 is a great example, typically it'll show better grain, less decarb, and 1-2 points higher as quenched hardness when heat treated in a forge, vs soaking at the "on paper" temps in a kiln.

I have found this to be true.
 
Ozce5IG.jpg


Much better! Took don amd javands advice and as soon as i got uniform heat above critical i quenched in the AAA bada bing bada boom
 
Alright well i forged out a blade yesterday, ill go ahead and ht it and just wont hold at temp then break it and see what it looks like. If it looks good i will know my problem is as don mentioned amd im over heating pre quench. If it doesn't look good then it must've gotten too hot during forging. Sound about right?

Honestly, unless you see sparklers coming off the steel when it's white hot, you can't really get it too hot when forging, as long as you do a full thermal cycle with reducing heats to reduce grain. I think way too much is made of this, consider that all (ok most) damascus (carbon) is welded at 2300 to well over 2400 degrees (any of you that don't have thermocouples in your welding forges are likely running above 2400 degrees, most wont realize, until you see how much darker a 2300 degree forge is once you add a TC), much hotter than this and you start burning steel.

Forging temps are usually MUCH lower than this, but even if you are forging at yellow heat, other than decarb (which you can grind away) or large grain (which you can thermal cycle away) you're not hurting it. However, you can control grain growth, and to some degree reduce grain size, from forging at lower temps, but there's a limit, and at a certain point, you're liable to introduce fractures/cracks if you forge too heavy at too low a temp.
 
Javand thaat makes alot of sense. Like most new guys i over think it. But grain seems to be back on track. Thanks don and everyone!
 
I allways like to look at a break when it’s fresh and clean. Take that same test blade and clean off the oil and wipe it down. Then snap it and take a picture of the grain befor anything touches the surface. Keep fingers and oil Exe off the fresh surface. Lots of times this stuff will cloud the results and make the grain look better then it actualy is
 
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