Heat Treatment - Crystal Weaving Foundation

I have to say I don't understand hardly any of the stuff, but can follow a recipe. Let's give Luong credit for all his research and study. Doesn't matter what's happening at the molecular level, what really counts is how it performs. From Luong's tests AND tests by independent folks who have confirmed Luong's tests results.

Since Luong has been so gracious to share the process, we'll have a chance to see other folks duplicating the results with their own HT'ing results. Then the smart folks can figure what's going on at the molecular level and why it works.

THANK YOU Luong for sharing your process.

Ken H>
 
Credit has been given for the performance. It was made clear that the results and the reasons for them are separate issues. Hopefully everyone who is able will try this out. Some will see improvement and some will probably not. However, BCMW is making some specific claims as to why the results happen, and those claims are what has been questioned.

What is happening on the microscopic level does matter, as that is the proposed reason for the performance. BCMW is claiming to have done things no one has done before in terms of microstructure.
 
I was not clear in my previous post - you are correct, credit has been given. You are correct, something must be happening at the microscopic level if he's really getting the results he claims, and he does seem to be getting those results from his videos, AND from at least one other tester who confirms Luong's results on test blades sent for testing.

When I said "don't matter on microscopic level, I'm trying to say..... not sure what I'm trying to say :( Perhaps I'd like to pass over the "why" of the results and just focus on the "what" of the results. Let's follow Luong's outline of his process and see if it can be repeated - that's the true test, can they be repeated by independent folks doing the HT'ing by following Luong's process? I'm trying to get my stuff all together to test his process with AEB-L - can you imagine how long an edge would stay sharp at 65 Rc if it was strong enough not to chip or curl in the kitchen? I'm talking slicers here, not choppers.

Once several folks get his type of results with their HT'ing following Luong's process, then maybe some folks with Electron Scanning Microscopes will become interested in what is happening and do some lab type tests to figure what's really behind the HT process and what it does to give such fantastic results.

OTOH, if nobody else can repeat the HT and get Luong's results....... :( :(

Before the "why" can be figured out, the "what" has to be proven by several independent folks.
 
I get what your saying. He gets good results. For right now I'm in the camp of getting good results for the wrong reason. I don't think anything revolutionary is happening on a microstructural level. I do think he's getting a good solid heat treatment way of marquenching. As above, I've heard of marquenched blades being dropped point first into concrete with no tempering and being fine. I've also made knives in the 65 HRc range (64.5) that survived point concrete drops and throwing with accidental impact point first with other metal objects. This was the post tempered hardness though. Marquenching is relatively rare in the knife world, but it has the benefits that align with BCMW results, namely increased toughness.
 
I'm not sure I follow? Oh, and just to avoid confusion, my blades were not marquenching. They were industrially treated HSS, likely salt bath treated.
 
me2 said:
I get what your saying. He gets good results. For right now I'm in the camp of getting good results for the wrong reason. I don't think anything revolutionary is happening on a microstructural level. I do think he's getting a good solid heat treatment way of marquenching. As above, I've heard of marquenched blades being dropped point first into concrete with no tempering and being fine. I've also made knives in the 65 HRc range (64.5) that survived point concrete drops and throwing with accidental impact point first with other metal objects. This was the post tempered hardness though. Marquenching is relatively rare in the knife world, but it has the benefits that align with BCMW results, namely increased toughness.
Click to expand...

Look at you, the Hans Solo of metallurgy sitting over here.

jk, I've been waiting to use that one for awhile.
 
me2 said:
I'm not sure I follow? Oh, and just to avoid confusion, my blades were not marquenching. They were industrially treated HSS, likely salt bath treated.
Click to expand...

If you look at industries outside the knife world marquenching is done often. That is what I meant. If knifemakers see other industries and I am sure some have, they can see how to adapt certain techniques to their process. However, I don't think anyone has done this after an HT process. Usually part of the process, so to say that this would be done after a part has been HT'd would be something new I think?
 
Oh ok. Yes I'd say it's fairly common in industry. Do you mean a reheat treatment?
 
me2 said:
Oh ok. Yes I'd say it's fairly common in industry. Do you mean a reheat treatment?
Click to expand...

Well that is the question. I have not heard of it as a reheat treatment. Only as a step in the HT process. I am trying to wrap my brain around this being used as a reheat treatment after an HT which is what bluntcut seems to be implying, if I am reading everything correctly.
 
I had to read the procedure again. I don't think he's reheat treating, though he's done that for people. It sounds like he's doing a slower than normal cooling rate marquenching all the way to cryogenic temperatures, then a very low temper near 275 deg F. He's also relying on the auto tempering from slow cooling through the formation range of martensite. That notion does bring a question, as the auto tempering must be slight indeed to retain such high hardnesses.
 
I'll go back and try to figure it out. I didn't think that he actually went into the deep cryo range(-320)
 
Back in town for a couple days...

I cryo/LN2 dip (for a few minutes). LN2 is prefer over dry ice because of extra compression (thermal contraction).
Cobalt said:
I'll go back and try to figure it out. I didn't think that he actually went into the deep cryo range(-320)
Click to expand...

64rc AEB-L has excellent wear resistant and impact toughness - really http://www.bluntcutmetalworks.com/i...tchen-util-thin-hollow-vs-turkey-thigh-bones/

edit to add: btw - if you guys interested in seeing side-to-side Enlan 8CrMoV vs Enlan 8CrMov CWF re-ht. And maybe cwf re-ht 62rc 420HC (I've only 1 Buck knife).... let me know, I might :) shoot a video.
 
Last edited:
Hi Luong,

I'm interested. Enlan was my introduction to some good tough design. The 8Cr wasn't really up there though, so BCMW Enlan will be interesting!
 
I didn't cared much about the look(masked out expensive washers), heheh... Maybe I will be more gentle with disassembly next time.

Both CWF HT blades easily out cut BM940 s30v. 58rc 8CrMoV dulls quickly - can't even compete with opinel carbone.

qUPOF31.jpg
 
Last edited:
me2 said:
I had to read the procedure again. I don't think he's reheat treating, though he's done that for people. It sounds like he's doing a slower than normal cooling rate marquenching all the way to cryogenic temperatures, then a very low temper near 275 deg F. He's also relying on the auto tempering from slow cooling through the formation range of martensite. That notion does bring a question, as the auto tempering must be slight indeed to retain such high hardnesses.
Click to expand...

Then I know for fact this has been done before/ If this is indeed the case. I can name two people that I know of, one of which was experimenting with this in the early 90's. I would not be surprised to find out that there were many more doing this in the 90's. If this is being done as part of the HT process then it is nothing knew, but it is a good thing to see with steels that are not typically known for toughness or high hardness. Definitely interested to see where you go with this Bluntcut
 
Marquench/Martempering is about equalize work piece right above Martensite Start(Ms). CWF HT quench cool to 450-465F then 1F/minute cooling toward room temp. I see very little overlapped between the 2, hence not much value to compare them. Done, right?

Are there conventional ht produces similar result to cwf ht? Although there are a bunch of responses for aebl, amplitude changes but the curve is more/less the same. Maybe, it will become clearer once you got there & scratching your head.
3Pmtfnw.jpg


As stated before - I am barely on this path and was hoping others join to explore & discover.
 
bluntcut said:
Marquench/Martempering is about equalize work piece right above Martensite Start(Ms). CWF HT quench cool to 450-465F then 1F/minute cooling toward room temp. I see very little overlapped between the 2, hence not much value to compare them. Done, right?

Are there conventional ht produces similar result to cwf ht? Although there are a bunch of responses for aebl, amplitude changes but the curve is more/less the same. Maybe, it will become clearer once you got there & scratching your head.
3Pmtfnw.jpg


As stated before - I am barely on this path and was hoping others join to explore & discover.
Click to expand...

Yes, there are HT processes that do a modified version(proprietary) of what you are trying to do. There is no such thing as conventional when people do proprietary HT's. So, I like where you are heading and I think combining forces with some other budding makers is a good idea, and it will get you to a good process yourself. I love to see this.
 
Last night, I thinned out the original Enlan and did head-to-head tests video. Shot a long video but only first 3-4 minutes were clear, rest is fog/fuzz-in :grumpy:. Time to get rid of this new camera.

Original 0.014"BET/15dps, CWF HT 0.011"BET/15dps.

15 minutes cutting costco food grade cardboard boxes - both still smoothly slice phonebook paper. Orig is noisy after 5 minutes and stay that way.

Quick resharpened & ~100 whittle cuts black bamboo (bamboo is much more consistent than cardboard, guessing - this bamboo skin has about 3% of silica).

Orig: reflect light. Under 22x - apex width about 3x wider than cwf ht
cwf ht: Under 22x - apex is barely visible.

Chop into buloke wood: orig has visible smushed-in (folded over roll).
Whittle aluminum rod: orig has visible roll. cwf ht has loupe roll (not visible w/o magnification).
Whittle 16d nail: orig has large roll. cwf ht has visible small ripples.

edit (how could I forgot): Press cut paper clip (hardened steel - I think) on wood backing
orig: edge smushed down with shape of the paper clip radius
cwf ht: edge rippled - half as deep as orig. Can't push any harder than leaned my weigh on palm on blade spine.
* neither cut through the clip. cwf ht made deeper cut.

Chris "Anagarika";16401355 said:
Hi Luong,

I'm interested. Enlan was my introduction to some good tough design. The 8Cr wasn't really up there though, so BCMW Enlan will be interesting!
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Well, scary good. :thumbup:
A BCMW Cara Cara Titanium will be a perfect EDC (from how nice it looks and reviewers comment, but blade steel is behind/no upgrade) ;), but perhaps a normal FRN one will become 'SuperSteel' in disguise, is ironic and at the same time great!!! One can always dream :D
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top